851 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamemako]

MAGlKARP wrote...

I don't like the idea of giving vanguards a reliable primer because the role of biosplosion spam is already filled by adepts. As we've already discussed, we want vanguards to be biotic soldiers, not just adepts with charge.

Asari and Phoenix can already self-detonate reliably, both having two tools which can be detonated with Charge (and can on occasion detonate one another). Three other Vanguards can self-detonate on rare occasions: the Drell's Pull, the Human's Lifting Shockwave, and the Krogan's Barrier can all prime for detonation with Charge when used on unshielded targets. Only the Slayer cannot self-detonate under any circumstance. Just another hit against the crappy wall-spammer.

[Quething]

I'm highly suspicious of the idea that any novaguard has ever taken Shockwave past 3.

As long as we're talking ideas for vanguard powers... there are other finite resources we can burn instead of shield. Why not ammo? Give us a Turian (female) vanguard with roll, and kit her out with Charge, Throw, and High-Explosive Round; High-Explosive Round would be a new power that does fire damage and massive force with no cooldown at the cost of a single clip of ammo (possibly with a weapon-based damage modifier so quick-reloading SMGs don't become the only smart weapon choice). One of the evolutions could add bleed damage that can be triggered as a tech combo with Charge or Throw.

Or there's always the Barrier solution; a sustained ability doesn't interfere with cooldowns either. The cooldown penalty on Barrier itself is extra hard on a vanguard compared to other classes, and we could ill afford the mobility penalty of Devastator or the shield hit of Hunter Mode either. But what about a new power that improves biotic damage and biotic explosion damage, and penalizes weapon accuracy? Or one that increases movement speed and weapon damage, at the cost of max spare ammo?

[disappearingone11]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Right now I'm more worried with fixing the characters we have already over thinking of new ones, to tell the truth... 
Not that you aren' t right, you are, we need a more soldiery feel, but if we could first find ways to fix the current vanguards with minimal effort on BioWare's part to implement (increases the chances to have them do it, imo) said changes, I believe we'd be better served right now.

Again, I agree. And if they only fix one thing, then I want it to be BC, even if all they do is tweak it. The move has no many problems that any step in the right direction would help.

[disappearingone11]

Quething wrote...

I'm highly suspicious of the idea that any novaguard has ever taken Shockwave past 3.

As long as we're talking ideas for vanguard powers... there are other finite resources we can burn instead of shield. Why not ammo? Give us a Turian (female) vanguard with roll, and kit her out with Charge, Throw, and High-Explosive Round; High-Explosive Round would be a new power that does fire damage and massive force with no cooldown at the cost of a single clip of ammo (possibly with a weapon-based damage modifier so quick-reloading SMGs don't become the only smart weapon choice). One of the evolutions could add bleed damage that can be triggered as a tech combo with Charge or Throw.

Or there's always the Barrier solution; a sustained ability doesn't interfere with cooldowns either. The cooldown penalty on Barrier itself is extra hard on a vanguard compared to other classes, and we could ill afford the mobility penalty of Devastator or the shield hit of Hunter Mode either. But what about a new power that improves biotic damage and biotic explosion damage, and penalizes weapon accuracy? Or one that increases movement speed and weapon damage, at the cost of max spare ammo?

This is a little off topic, but just out of curiosity, what would a Turian female even look like? I don't think we've ever seen one in the entire trilogy, we only occassionally hear about them from Garrus (the one he "blew off some steam with" in ME2 his sister in ME3 are all that come to mind). We know that some have flexibility at least by Garrus' standards, but that's not much to go on. Or is it that we see them quite a bit without realizing it because to us, they look like the men? Same thing regarding Bararians now that I think about it (a few other races, too, but not playable or commonly seen ones). The Quarians are the only race that has a human-like distinction between the sexes. Just something to think about.

Anyway, about barrier: I don't find it to be too problematic with the Kroguard as long as I take the 6a evo, and the extra durability and power it gives helps to counter the cd issue. That said, anything that increases cd's is much more of a problem for vanguards than for other classes unless we abandon heavy weapons, which creates its own problems. Plus, we only have the Krogan to go on atm, and he can get away with a lot of things that other vanguards can't, so that makes it hard to guage how barriers would work on others. There will always be a tradeoff to using it because it does make you tougher and do more power damage (plus the explosion, though I don't find it to be terribly practical since using it does affect your cd's), but the tradeoff has to be worthwhile. If they were to give it to other vanguards, they'd need to make sure that the tradeoff remained tolerable, which would almost certainly entail some tweaking compared to the Krogan's version.

[RNG God]

I want to see a proper Vanguard.
I'm talking adrenaline rush type power (Albeit a little bit toned down)
Buffed up Biotic power with close range power (Not a wall spam, like nova but on a cooldown and a little less power to compensate)
Frag nades.
Inherent shotgun damage bonus in the passive, and Big shields in it's fitness to compensate for no charge.

[Pedro Costa]

Wow, 8 hours without a post?
No can do, mate.

I agree with disappearingone11, fixing/buffing Charge alone would go a loooooong way to improve the class.

[Pancakes71]

Quething wrote...

Give us a Turian (female) vanguard with roll, and kit her out with Charge, Throw, and High-Explosive Round; High-Explosive Round would be a new power that does fire damage and massive force with no cooldown at the cost of a single clip of ammo

Certainly this.

The High-Explosive Round would be like the old Inferno Ammo, and Vanguard's survivability would come from CC, and not high shields or big DR (as it should be).

This^ and a new shotgun with really, really huge spread and high damage (preferably by some ancient batarian/turian/krogan design). Such weapon would compensate for the old damage multiplier and actually encourage Vanguards to shoot from meele range. That would make charge an actual offensive ability and not a shield-refilling one like it is now.

I just hope it's not too much to ask.

[thegamefreek78648]

Quething wrote...

I'm highly suspicious of the idea that any novaguard has ever taken Shockwave past 3.

Well, taking it out to the detonation evolution isnt that bad due to the massive bonus it gives and its spamable enough to be usefull in situations where you dont want to use charge, such as clearing out swarmers and knocking husks and cannibals around to simply shoot.

[L-train32]

Vanguards ftw!

[thegamefreek78648]

disappearingone11 wrote...

This is a little off topic, but just out of curiosity, what would a Turian female even look like?

There is one in the Mass Effect comic that reveils the origins of T.I.M.

[Pedro Costa]

thegamefreek78648 wrote...
Well, taking it out to the detonation evolution isnt that bad due to the massive bonus it gives and its spamable enough to be usefull in situations where you dont want to use charge, such as clearing out swarmers and knocking husks and cannibals around to simply shoot.

Still don't take it.
Need full Charge for power synergy and barrier (21pts)
Need Nova for Pierce and power recharge/half blast (21pts)
need alliance for weapon weight and power damage (15pts)
need fitness for full health.(21pts)

At most, I'd have 6 points to spend on shockwave, and even that would restrict my weapons greatly if I want a short cooldown to spam charge.

Novaguards just don't have enough damage output, base encumberance or protection to invest in a 6/5/6/X/Y build.. If we at least had one of those, yeah, I could see sacrificing one passive tree for Detonating Shockwave, but as it is now, no way. No way at all.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 19 août 2012 - 02:55 .

[Ziegrif]

Umm I kinda did a Vanguard and turned him into a detonating adept.
Forgoed Charge and built Nova to just sustain and make it spammable (can do it 3-4 times before shield gate)
Shockwave went for complete Biosplosions.
Decided to just run to my targets.
It's actually really good and IMO one of the best detonator classes in the game and NO AIR VANGUARD!
Shield recharge I solved by giving the vanguards shield recharge gear and consumables.
I think this is one of the better builds because it requires the Vanguard players to play smart and keep an exit strategy that doesn't require charge. I even escaped once just spamming Nova was kinda silly but it worked!
Also didn't read the thread ^^;

[MP-Ryan]

Ziegrif wrote...

Umm I kinda did a Vanguard and turned him into a detonating adept.
Forgoed Charge and built Nova to just sustain and make it spammable (can do it 3-4 times before shield gate)
Shockwave went for complete Biosplosions.
Decided to just run to my targets.
It's actually really good and IMO one of the best detonator classes in the game and NO AIR VANGUARD!
Shield recharge I solved by giving the vanguards shield recharge gear and consumables.
I think this is one of the better builds because it requires the Vanguard players to play smart and keep an exit strategy that doesn't require charge. I even escaped once just spamming Nova was kinda silly but it worked!
Also didn't read the thread ^^;

While this may work, you might as well just take one of the more powerful adepts (ex-cerberus comes to mind) as a Vanguard specced without charge is not a vanguard at all as they don't actually have any combat powers (carnage excluded, and its crap anyway).

While your build is interesting, it just highlights the problem all of us vanguard-lovers are all too familiar with:  they aren't the combat/biotic hybrids they're supposed to be.  Most of them are just crappy adepts with biotic charge thrown in for good measure.  The kroguard does play like a vanguard but there's no point in speccing carnage (and the character doesn't suffer for it, thankfully), as does the human vanguard, but it is sadly underpowered for Gold and Platinum.

The drell, asari, phoenix, and slayer are all way too squishy and don't fulfill the role of the combat/biotic hybrid like they're supposed to.

[Quething]

disappearingone11 wrote...

This is a little off topic, but just out of curiosity, what would a Turian female even look like?

As Gamefreek mentions, there's one in one of the comics. She looks like a male turian, but with a really, really short fringe, so she basically looks "bald." A lot of fans reject that as canon, though, for two reasons: 1) Garrus compliments Shepard's "fringe" in a romance, which doesn't make sense if that's a feature female turians don't really even have, and 2) the whole point of the fringe is to protect the turian from Palaven's lethal radiation, and so a bald turian would have a cooked brain by age 3. (Some people also go with 3: "it's ugly and unfeminine," but those people are fools who should be ignored or eaten.)

I'm pretty sure most fans would be perfectly happy with a turian that uses the mesh we have now but has female VA. If they were bigger and less "flashy" than males in some way, though, that would be consistent with the birds and dinosaurs they're based off of (people would still complain about Garrus' "reach" comment, but my best friend is dating a guy a foot shorter than her even though male humans tend to be larger than female humans. Exceptions happen).

And to bring it back to topic, the turian's natural accuracy bonuses would be an interesting match with the vanguard. Guns like the Wraith, Eviscerator, and Claymore tend to benefit most from a smart choke over other mods, since it can give them a tight enough spread to reliably headshot, or body-shot enemies at medium ranges during hack objectives or against instagibbers when closing to melee is a Bad Idea. A turian could have that advantage merely through class passive, freeing up a slot for an extended barrel or a melee mod.

Oh, and speaking of melee - just from browsing C.bin, it looks like it ought to be perfectly possible to individually ajdust the melee bonuses of individual weapons (by default they're all at 1.0). This could even be done in weekly balance updates. Tweaking heavier weapons to do more melee damage could actually help vanguards a lot, giving us another advantage besides higher weapon damage to help offset the severity of the weight penalty on better guns without overpowering other classes (since very few of them are ever meleeing anyway).

Modifié par Quething, 19 août 2012 - 04:59 .

[Ziegrif]

Deleted post. Sometimes a dood is just wrong.

http://social.biowar...107/22#13776102

Modifié par Ziegrif, 21 août 2012 - 09:12 .

[Pedro Costa]

Ziegrif wrote...
The Vanguards are more of a detonator class anyway used in conjunction with other adepts. If yer crying about lore then cry, gameplay wise they have a spot, it's everyones own responsobility to make do with the tools you've been given. This'll sound real elitist of me but if someone can't utilize a class and find a spot for it in gameplay they lack leet e-peen raising skillz and should take a closer look at the class. I myself found them to be powerful AOE anti troop personnel and Kroguard an anti-armor guy.

Basically, you're arguing we actually have two adept classes and that everyone who wants what they are suppose to get are aweful players for not wanting to be completely reliant on another player who doesn't have to give a crap about you?

Perfect sense... your post makes little.
It's not as much as me not finding your alternate builds interesting, they certainly are, it's me finding you thinking a vanguard should never spec into charge and always play as an adept while needing real adepts at the same time to be useful as Vanguard being perfectly fine and viable. It's not just a lore issue, it's a gameplay one. Because, if I want to play as an adept, guess what? I'll play as an adept. There's this little nifty class dedicated to biotic powers and everything!
If I want to play as a damage dealing biotic soldier who's always in the enemies' faces ripping them apart while putting my butt on the line for that experience, I _should_ be using a Vanguard. That's what the class was created for.

Also, I find you posting here in such an elitist manner and arguing that vanguards are perfectly fine without bothering to read the topic rather... rude. If you wish to partake in the discussion, by all means, catch up and do so. If it is to sit on your high horse and tell everybody else to stop "whining" and "l2p", go be a jerk somewhere else, thank you.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 19 août 2012 - 08:16 .

[MP-Ryan]

Ziegrif, you should read the thread. Most of what you've said has already been discussed and refuted.

Incidentally, Kroguard and Novaguard are my two most-played characters. Carnage does indeed suck - if you don't see it, you're not playing enough Gold/Platinum. The kroguard itself is a pretty brilliant character, it's just that one power. As for the novaguard, it's the best thought-out of all the Vanguards but it hasn't kept up to power creep among the bad guys. It's fine and dandy to discuss shield mods, but the fact is that vanguards are supposed to be biotic/combat hybrids. That's their raison d'etre. To have to use gear mods to even be viable in the scenarios they are supposed to thrive in is ridiculous. Vanguards fulfilled their role in ME1, developed a new gamestyle in ME2 but maintained their CQB credentials due to point-blank damage multiplier, and have totally gone off the rails in ME3. You either attempt to play them as vanguard and die (except kroguard), or play them as poorly-constructed adepts.

For the very long and completely defended version of the above summary courtesy of multiple vanguard players, read the rest of the thread.

[disappearingone11]

Ziegrif wrote...

I do understand your thought process on the combat/biotic vanguard lore based argument, what I can't deal with is your thoughts that they're crappy adepts. They're actually better adepts than some of our normal adepts, just a bit more specialized.

Let's take a look here.

Asari Vanguard: Lift grenades: AOE troop destroyers, keeps the mooks at bay, no adept has them. They're easy to aim and use and have a huge aoe radius.

Kroguard: If you say carnage sucks you havcen't used it nor a Krogan soldier. The Kroguard without charge is a hybrid between the Krosents durability and a KroSoldiers anti-armor effectiveness. He also has stun immunity and better shields than other Krogans. Stick some incendiary ammo to stack with the carnage and you got yerself a jack of armor busters.

Drell vanguard: I use him as an alternate adept build really. Adepts got reave Vanguards got pull. I use pull as a distraction power to make mooks dodge and float. He's also got cluster grenades and those are useful.

Cerb vanguard: Carbon copy of the adept nothing to really see here unfortunately. Good for alternate builds I guess.

Nova Adept: It's a detonator. Can detonate mooks by itself with shockwave lift evo. Best used with other adepts like reavers. The best AOE adept imo.

Slayer... I don't play slayer... I just haven't gotten up to him yet o.O;

On squishiness. Consumables. Shield Gear. Shield recharge gear. We got ways to fix that shield problem dood.

The Vanguards are more of a detonator class anyway used in conjunction with other adepts. If yer crying about lore then cry, gameplay wise they have a spot, it's everyones own responsobility to make do with the tools you've been given. This'll sound real elitist of me but if someone can't utilize a class and find a spot for it in gameplay they lack leet e-peen raising skillz and should take a closer look at the class. I myself found them to be powerful AOE anti troop personnel and Kroguard an anti-armor guy.

Less crying more lemonade. (I probably stepped on someones toes cuz I didna read teh thread but this is pretty much what I think. It's the player not the class that sucks. For example I'm absolutely HORRIBLE with the shadow and squishy asaris and have to use shield gear just to survive with them.)

This is quite a bit more than arguing about vanguards not fitting lore, but while I don't want to speak for others, I'll clarify my point to you:

First of all, it's not a matter of saying, "Vanguards don't play like proper soldier/adept hybrids; therefore, they suck." Most vanguards can be played effectively at least up to gold, and some up to platinum (note that I'm saying "up to," not "including"). The point is that very few can do so by playing as soldier/adept hybrids: the average vanguard is about 70-80% adept and 20-30% soldier. Most also have the same durability as adepts. This forces the average vanguard into playing far more like an adept than a soldier, which is an issue considering that vanguards are not adepts. More imporantly, however, is that even though vanguards can be played as adepts, their biotic abilities are inferior to every pure adept in the game: few vanguards have powerful biotic abilities, and fewer still have ones that complement each other well. Biotic explosions are what make adepts powerful, not individual biotic abilities, and this is why they have both primers and detonators. Most vanguards either lack the ability to create explosions on their own, or they can only do so situationally. Solving this problem by always playing with adepts is both impractical and unreliable, especially if you don't always play with friends: adepts are not dependent on vanguards (or sentinels for that matter) to prime or detonate explosions, and they have no obligation to help others do so.

Secondly, the vanguard's universal ability is biotic charge. If this ability worked properly, we would have far fewer problems. Unfortunately, it doesn't even come close: it does little damage, it leaves vanguards exposed, and it complements most other vanguard abilities poorly. When combined with the lack of durability that all non-Kroguards share, this typically results in a very quick death. Therefore, vanguards are forced to a) be extremely cautious about when and where to use it (and hope that bugs don't get them killed even when they use it wisely), use it only for self-defense, or c) abandon it altogether. This is a significant problem. It also exacerbates the ability of vanguards to play as soldier/adepts because it takes up one of the three ability slots, thus inherently gimping vanguards: BC being one of two biotic abilities makes for a weak adept, and abadoning it turns a vanguard into a very weak soldier. The Phoenix vanguard is the only one exempt from this problem, and only by virtue of having both of the Phoenix adept's unique biotic abilities. Of course all this really means is that he makes for a better adept than most vanguards.

I could go on, but I'll stop here for now, for these are by far my main points of contention, anyway. And while I won't ask you to read this entire thread, I would encourage you to read the posts about problems with BC and issues with priming/detonating BE's. They're pretty clearly laid out, and they don't include these .

[Quething]

 Wow, you guys are a lot more polite than I would have been 

[TehMerc]

Quething wrote...

 Wow, you guys are a lot more polite than I would have been 

Especially when the guy blatantly said it was the people complaining that sucked, not the class.

Just... bah *deskfaceplant*,  BSN never fails to disappoint.

[Achire]

Destructo-bot got a "we will look into this" type of reply from Fagnan on this thread so who knows maybe something will happen eventually.

[MP-Ryan]

Achire wrote...

Destructo-bot got a "we will look into this" type of reply from Fagnan on this thread so who knows maybe something will happen eventually.

I hope so.  While the main fixes would probably require a patch, I have a suspicion that enough could be done in a balancing edit to Biotic charge itself to fix the main problems in general for all the vanguards at once - namely, adjustment to barrier restoration and damage multipliers.

[Pedro Costa]

MP-Ryan wrote...
I hope so.  While the main fixes would probably require a patch, I have a suspicion that enough could be done in a balancing edit to Biotic charge itself to fix the main problems in general for all the vanguards at once - namely, adjustment to barrier restoration and damage multipliers.

Don't forget damage reduction after charge

[Oich]

disappearingone11 wrote...

Agreed. As much as I'd like to see some skills swapped out or removed altogether from some vanguards, it would be better to be realistic about what BW might actually do, and a skill overhaul for the majority of a class isn't a realistic expectation. Not that they're guaranteed to fix anything, but if they do, it will be in the form of tweaking existing powers, and/or possibly some base stats. The only way we'll ever get better built vanguards is if they give us new ones that happen to be built right, and considering how badly the two latest ones were made, I don't see this happening.

This statement kinda bugs me a little bcause the Slayer isn't really all that bad. If you completely spec out Phase Disruptor it plays A LOT like a novaguard with the option of having the nova a ranged attack. You can still charge into a group and PD their feet for area stuns and damage, just live nova. Regrettably, (and this is probably what you were referring to) there are no invincibilty frames for this, which is what, unfortunately, allows the novaguard to play this way.

On the whole, I guess I just want to say that the class apparently wasn't designed around wall-hugging, which is what players have more or less made it out to be.

[Quething]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...
I hope so.  While the main fixes would probably require a patch, I have a suspicion that enough could be done in a balancing edit to Biotic charge itself to fix the main problems in general for all the vanguards at once - namely, adjustment to barrier restoration and damage multipliers.

Don't forget damage reduction after charge

Indeed. If that were an effective 50% instead of 50% before formula like it is now, that alone would be such a huge piece of the puzzle.