851 réponses à ce sujet

[aetheldod]

All I want is a really powerfull Nova .... it should do at least the same amount of damage as smash ... I can deal with the other unfair disanvantages of the Vanguard.

[Hyperglide]

aetheldod wrote...

All I want is a really powerfull Nova .... it should do at least the same amount of damage as smash ... I can deal with the other unfair disanvantages of the Vanguard.

Take Pierce and don't take the dual Nova and it does plenty of damage.  

[aetheldod]

Hyperglide wrote...

aetheldod wrote...

All I want is a really powerfull Nova .... it should do at least the same amount of damage as smash ... I can deal with the other unfair disanvantages of the Vanguard.

Take Pierce and don't take the dual Nova and it does plenty of damage.  

No it does not ... I never ever taken dual Nova, and a Smash (this on silver) takes 4 squares of armor (sometimes more) , Nova with its supposed %100 increase of damage to armor (against Smash´s 75%) rarely takes down 2 squares of armour.

[disappearingone11]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...
I hope so.  While the main fixes would probably require a patch, I have a suspicion that enough could be done in a balancing edit to Biotic charge itself to fix the main problems in general for all the vanguards at once - namely, adjustment to barrier restoration and damage multipliers.

Don't forget damage reduction after charge

Indeed. Either that or increase base barriers (I don't know which would be easier/more practical for BW to do), but we've got to do something about the durability issue. Just buffing damage will make us suicide bombers, and barrier restoration doesn't mean much if the barriers are insufficient to begin with.

Still, it's encouraging to hear that something might be done. Hope springs eternal and all that good stuff

[Pedro Costa]

Hyperglide wrote...
Take Pierce and don't take the dual Nova and it does plenty of damage.  

Actually, for what a full-Nova demands in return, it doesn't. Hell, purely numerically speaking (i.e. forgetting it requires you to be in the enemy's face and expending the only thing protecting you) it isn't even _close_ to "plenty", it's average.
Like everything else in a Novaguard, average protection, average encumberance, average damage. 

aetheldod wrote...

All I want is a really powerfull Nova .... it should do at least the same amount of damage as smash ... I can deal with the other unfair disanvantages of the Vanguard.

I understand that feeling, and I agree that a full-damage Nova should be up there in the damage department since it demands the player to be in the enemies' faces, and also draining all of your protection right in front of them.

Vanguards should excel as either close-range tanks, drawing aggro while the team shoots the distracted targets or as a very close-range damage dealers. Sadly, only the kroguard gets that right... 

disappearingone11 wrote...
Indeed. Either that or increase base barriers (I don't know which would be easier/more practical for BW to do), but we've got to do something about the durability issue. Just buffing damage will make us suicide bombers, and barrier restoration doesn't mean much if the barriers are insufficient to begin with.

 
I'd prefer the damage reduction because it is also a reward for the risk of charging and it is immediately applied to all non-Krogan vanguards. Buffing barrier/health, while pleasant, doesn't reward anything and has to be tweaked individually.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 21 août 2012 - 12:28 .

[disappearingone11]

Oich wrote...

disappearingone11 wrote...

Agreed. As much as I'd like to see some skills swapped out or removed altogether from some vanguards, it would be better to be realistic about what BW might actually do, and a skill overhaul for the majority of a class isn't a realistic expectation. Not that they're guaranteed to fix anything, but if they do, it will be in the form of tweaking existing powers, and/or possibly some base stats. The only way we'll ever get better built vanguards is if they give us new ones that happen to be built right, and considering how badly the two latest ones were made, I don't see this happening.

This statement kinda bugs me a little bcause the Slayer isn't really all that bad. If you completely spec out Phase Disruptor it plays A LOT like a novaguard with the option of having the nova a ranged attack. You can still charge into a group and PD their feet for area stuns and damage, just live nova. Regrettably, (and this is probably what you were referring to) there are no invincibilty frames for this, which is what, unfortunately, allows the novaguard to play this way.

On the whole, I guess I just want to say that the class apparently wasn't designed around wall-hugging, which is what players have more or less made it out to be.

Yeah, in a lot of ways I don't like to hold the novaguard up as a good example of a vanguard because he relies on those invincibility frames to be successful; take them away, and he'll get ripped apart just like all non-Kroguards. And again, I'm not really a fan of invincibility frames beyond sync kill protection following a charge (except for people who use BC on a charged up banshee--those people have earned an instant death). The only thing I really like about the novaguard is that BC and nova complement each other well, and all vanguards should have an ability that works well with BC.

Regarding the Slayer, aside from the usual vanguard problems, my main issue with him is that his biotic slash is so dominant that most people spam it and spec out of PD entirely, which bothers me because PD is the only soldier aspect he has (and he shouldn't be a one-trick pony, anyway). PD and BC can be used in conjunction with each other by blasting PD, using BC to restore your barriers, and then using PD again. The problem is that unless you manage to consistently stagger everything that can shoot you, you'll either die from a lack of barriers due to excessive PD usage, or you'll die shortly after charging because your barriers are too weak to withstand close combat in the first place. So we're back to the durability issue, and why the durability of an adept doesn't work so well on vanguards. And as a result, the Slayer is typically relegated to the same role as the Phoenix: don't just hug the wall, keep one between yourself and your opponents at all times, and spam your powerful ability that hits through walls to kill them. The only thing that elevates the Slayer over the Phoenix imo is that PD makes him more viable as a makeshift soldier, and that's not much of an improvement.

[disappearingone11]

DarkLord_PT wrote...
 
I'd prefer the damage reduction because it is also a reward for the risk of charging and it is immediately applied to all non-Krogan vanguards. Buffing barrier/health, while pleasant, doesn't reward anything and has to be tweaked individually.

Given the choice, I agree with you. I'm just saying that if they don't give us the one, then they have to give us the other, or else close combat will never be viable.

[Pedro Costa]

disappearingone11 wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...
 
I'd prefer the damage reduction because it is also a reward for the risk of charging and it is immediately applied to all non-Krogan vanguards. Buffing barrier/health, while pleasant, doesn't reward anything and has to be tweaked individually.

Given the choice, I agree with you. I'm just saying that if they don't give us the one, then they have to give us the other, or else close combat will never be viable.

Definitely agreed. You can't expect a cqb class to be effective when you don't give it the tools it needs.

[MP-Ryan]

Prayers for this weeks balance changes:

-All vanguard base barriers increased.
-Biotic charge damage reduction added for 5s after charge at evolution 4.
-Biotic charge base force increase (let us all stagger phantoms, please).
-Weapon (shotgun) damage bonus added to biotic charge evolution 3.

Of course, I don't think we could handle the annoyance of pig poop on the roofs of our houses and cars, so it probably won't happen.

[Taritu]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Prayers for this weeks balance changes:

-All vanguard base barriers increased.
-Biotic charge damage reduction added for 5s after charge at evolution 4.
-Biotic charge base force increase (let us all stagger phantoms, please).
-Weapon (shotgun) damage bonus added to biotic charge evolution 3.

Of course, I don't think we could handle the annoyance of pig poop on the roofs of our houses and cars, so it probably won't happen.

Kroguards don't need a barrier increase. Otherwise, agreed.

[Gamemako]

Hyperglide wrote...

Take Pierce and don't take the dual Nova and it does plenty of damage.  

Yeah, right. Currently, a Human Soldier shooting a Talon deals 2.4x the DPS against barriers, 2.5x the DPS against armor, 3.3x the DPS against shields, and 3.6x the DPS against health compared to a Human Vanguard spamming Charge and (full) Nova. It's effectively impossible to hit enough targets to reach equivalence since Nova has a limit of 3 targets per use. Half Blast damage output is considerably worse -- you can add about a third on top of  each of those numbers. You're actually gimping the hell out of yourself by using Charge and Nova right now, and the kicker is that it's among the riskiest maneuvers in the game -- there's even a 12.5-second warmup period on even getting to that damage output and survivability level with Full Nova as you wait for your power recharge stacks to catch up, and you're quite easy to kill during that period.

That's pretty much the story with Vanguards in general. They assume massive risk to get the worst damage output in the game. Charge takes between 0.75s and 1.2s to complete during which you can do nothing, and it deals 250 damage. You can outdamage Charge on a sustained basis with a Locust. Seriously. Charge itself is a damage penalty, and the time afterward has you in a rather precarious position. The rewards have to be worth it. For most, there really isn't a reward at all -- a tiny power damage bonus and some barrier you won't live long enough to enjoy. Only the Krogan has enough barrier and DR to absorb what comes his way and make good use of the barrier regeneration and (incredibly tiny) bonuses. The Human might be able to if his attacks dealt any damage at all, but alas, as I have noted above, he has absolutely pathetic damage output. The important thing here is that the reward isn't worth any risk, let alone the risk that Charge actually imparts, because there isn't any reward at all.

Now, back to other topics, the issue I've been having with DR is that it stacks directly. If you gave Vanguards 75 DR after charging instead of 50 DR, then a dodging Drell would have 125 DR -- reducing the actual damage he takes by 93.75%. Granted, that's not such a terrible thing because he's giving up 100% of his damage output to dodge, but it makes for a rather funky dynamic. Same thing with heavy melees that offer DR. DR also functions equivalently to a health multiplier, making other bonuses (cyclonic modulators) proportionally more powerful compared to the diminishing relative returns that other shield bonuses get. Deciding on the "correct" DR is not trivial.

Modifié par Gamemako, 21 août 2012 - 04:00 .

[thegamefreek78648]

Hyperglide wrote...

Take Pierce and don't take the dual Nova and it does plenty of damage.  

I actually recomend dual Nova simply because after you charge, then nova, you have a second or two to look around, figure out if you bit off to much and have something to cover you while you dive for cover.  Or if you are in a good spot you can nova again, staggering enemies again, then you can charge again.

[Achire]

Biotic Charge Power (all kits excluding the Krogan)
- Base damage increased from 250 to 400
- Base force increased from 500 to 600

Biotic Charge Power (Krogan only)
- Base damage increased from 400 to 500
- Evolve 4 melee damage bonus increased from 25% to 40% and duration increased from 4 to 5 seconds

Biotic Charge Power (all kits including the Krogan)
- Rank 3 damage and force bonus increased from 20% to 30%
- Evolve 1 damage and force bonus increased from 30% to 40%
- Evolve 3 weapon damage bonus increased from 15% to 25% and duration increased from 3 to 5 seconds
- Evolve 4 power damage bonus increased from 25% to 40% but duration decreased from 15 to 10 seconds
- Evolve 5 chance to cause no cooldown increased from 25% to 33%

Nice, but I don't think it's going to boost the damage enough. Also no survivability buff of any sort, which is really quite needed on Platinum.

Modifié par Achire, 21 août 2012 - 05:30 .

[Zanru]

Achire wrote...

Biotic Charge Power (all kits excluding the Krogan)
- Base damage increased from 250 to 400
- Base force increased from 500 to 600

Biotic Charge Power (Krogan only)
- Base damage increased from 400 to 500
- Evolve 4 melee damage bonus increased from 25% to 40% and duration increased from 4 to 5 seconds

Biotic Charge Power (all kits including the Krogan)
- Rank 3 damage and force bonus increased from 20% to 30%
- Evolve 1 damage and force bonus increased from 30% to 40%
- Evolve 3 weapon damage bonus increased from 15% to 25% and duration increased from 3 to 5 seconds
- Evolve 4 power damage bonus increased from 25% to 40% but duration decreased from 15 to 10 seconds
- Evolve 5 chance to cause no cooldown increased from 25% to 33%

Nice, but I don't think it's going to boost the damage enough. Also no survivability buff of any sort, which is really quite needed on Platinum.

Those buffs are lovely, wish they would have given slayer the melee damage bonus evo instead of weapon damage, but these are awesome.

[Achire]

Oh man. Novaguard and Drell don't have enough Force to stagger Phantoms without taking Power Synergy or Force&Damage. Asari, Slayer and Smashguard have 1050 N even with Area Charge. Really sucks for the Drellguard.

[disappearingone11]

Achire wrote...

Biotic Charge Power (all kits excluding the Krogan)
- Base damage increased from 250 to 400
- Base force increased from 500 to 600

Biotic Charge Power (Krogan only)
- Base damage increased from 400 to 500
- Evolve 4 melee damage bonus increased from 25% to 40% and duration increased from 4 to 5 seconds

Biotic Charge Power (all kits including the Krogan)
- Rank 3 damage and force bonus increased from 20% to 30%
- Evolve 1 damage and force bonus increased from 30% to 40%
- Evolve 3 weapon damage bonus increased from 15% to 25% and duration increased from 3 to 5 seconds
- Evolve 4 power damage bonus increased from 25% to 40% but duration decreased from 15 to 10 seconds
- Evolve 5 chance to cause no cooldown increased from 25% to 33%

Nice, but I don't think it's going to boost the damage enough. Also no survivability buff of any sort, which is really quite needed on Platinum.

Yeah, I'm afraid that the extra damage is going to be moot on gold and platinum. This doesn't fix the encumbrance problem, either. But we'll see; more staggering (and outright kills) may help to compensate.

[Oich]

disappearingone11 wrote...

Yeah, in a lot of ways I don't like to hold the novaguard up as a good example of a vanguard because he relies on those invincibility frames to be successful; take them away, and he'll get ripped apart just like all non-Kroguards. And again, I'm not really a fan of invincibility frames beyond sync kill protection following a charge (except for people who use BC on a charged up banshee--those people have earned an instant death). The only thing I really like about the novaguard is that BC and nova complement each other well, and all vanguards should have an ability that works well with BC.

Regarding the Slayer, aside from the usual vanguard problems, my main issue with him is that his biotic slash is so dominant that most people spam it and spec out of PD entirely, which bothers me because PD is the only soldier aspect he has (and he shouldn't be a one-trick pony, anyway). PD and BC can be used in conjunction with each other by blasting PD, using BC to restore your barriers, and then using PD again. The problem is that unless you manage to consistently stagger everything that can shoot you, you'll either die from a lack of barriers due to excessive PD usage, or you'll die shortly after charging because your barriers are too weak to withstand close combat in the first place. So we're back to the durability issue, and why the durability of an adept doesn't work so well on vanguards. And as a result, the Slayer is typically relegated to the same role as the Phoenix: don't just hug the wall, keep one between yourself and your opponents at all times, and spam your powerful ability that hits through walls to kill them. The only thing that elevates the Slayer over the Phoenix imo is that PD makes him more viable as a makeshift soldier, and that's not much of an improvement.

Great post. I thought that's what you might be referring to, and I agree with all of your points. I'm also not a huge fan of invincibility frames, but at this point in the game, I'm happy that at least they got something. As far as the Slayer goes, I think it's great they got Phase Disruptor which compliments Biotic Charge in much the same way Nova does. But, then you die.

At least the idea is sound.

[Asebstos]

So an Asari Vanguard lift grenade is going to do how much damage after a charge now?

[Gamemako]

Achire wrote...

Oh man. Novaguard and Drell don't have enough Force to stagger Phantoms without taking Power Synergy or Force&Damage. Asari, Slayer and Smashguard have 1050 N even with Area Charge. Really sucks for the Drellguard.

Excellent observation. I will address this in my thread, which I will put out by tomorrow evening. Been sitting on my hands too long anyway.

It's actually funny to see: the Drell got none of his issues addressed (stagger, squish, low weapon damage) while other Vanguards got buffed more. I'm sure they'll look at addressing that discrepancy, though.

//EDIT:

Asebstos wrote...

So an Asari Vanguard lift grenade is going to do how much damage after a charge now?

105 damage more than it did before, which is a pretty tiny buff.

Modifié par Gamemako, 21 août 2012 - 08:13 .

[Asebstos]

Gamemako wrote...

Asebstos wrote...

So an Asari Vanguard lift grenade is going to do how much damage after a charge now?

105 damage more than it did before, which is a pretty tiny buff.

That doesn't sound right. Unless I'm doing the math wrong I think its ~200 more damage (assuming max damage Lift Grenades + max power bonuses from the Passive tree)

[Gamemako]

Asebstos wrote...

That doesn't sound right. Unless I'm doing the math wrong I think its ~200 more damage (assuming max damage Lift Grenades + max power bonuses from the Passive tree)

The bonus is additive. Previously, it was 25%. Now it s 40%. The different is 15%. 0.15*700 = 105.

[Asebstos]

Gamemako wrote...

Asebstos wrote...

That doesn't sound right. Unless I'm doing the math wrong I think its ~200 more damage (assuming max damage Lift Grenades + max power bonuses from the Passive tree)

The bonus is additive. Previously, it was 25%. Now it s 40%. The different is 15%. 0.15*700 = 105.

700? Does it only affect the base Lift Grenade stats? I'm talking about after all bonuses are applied.

[Gamemako]

Asebstos wrote...

700? Does it only affect the base Lift Grenade stats?

Yes. Power damage bonuses are additive: each bonus applies to the base damage.

Multiplicative bonuses are generally limited to target types (e.g. +50% vs. barriers), Expose bonuses (e.g. +20% damage taken from Proximity Mine), and the occassional weapon-type bonus (limited to the +25% to sniper rifles from Cloak).

[FlowCytometry]

It would be very odd (though cool) for the power synergy to be multiplicative rather than additive (ie. final vs. base dmg), so yeah 105 sounds right.

[david_demos484]

Gonna dust off my novaguard tonight. Prepare to watch me get insta killed!