851 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

atum wrote...


this is a joke right?

Infiltrators get a boost of 40 percent for weapon, power and melee damage at rank one in addition to invisibility if done right. Another 40 percent in the fourth evolution of cloak. Then a possible boost for melee damage in rank 5. And in rank six,additional 25 weapon damage for sniper rifles. And this bonus is multiplikative.
Is this a joke too?

The Infiltrator is a tech/soldier hybrid and the Vanguard is biotic combat. Yet the benefits the class get for any kind of damage is pathetic,even regarding the new balance changes.

And regarding the risks involved by playing a Vanguard are far higher then the reward they get. This is the real joke.

Modifié par tonnactus, 22 août 2012 - 12:49 .

[disappearingone11]

tonnactus wrote...

Infiltrators get a boost of 40 percent for weapon, power and melee damage at rank one in addition to invisibility if done right. Another 40 percent in the fourth evolution of cloak. Then a possible boost for melee damage in rank 5. And in rank six,additional 25 weapon damage for sniper rifles. And this bonus is multiplicative.
Is this a joke too?

The Infiltrator is a tech/soldier hybrid and the Vanguard is biotic combat. Yet the benefits the class get for any kind of damage is pathetic,even regarding the new balance changes.

And regarding the risks involved by playing a Vanguard are far higher then the reward they get. This is the real joke.

You know, it's things like this that really shoot holes in the "we can't buff you for higher difficulties because you'd be OP at lower difficulties" argument. What is it that nerfs an infiltrator's damage on bronze or silver? Absolutely nothing. And if that weren't enough, most infiltrators have higher shields than vanguards (Krogan excluded), and some even have more health (the Quarian male of all people ). The only one that falls below both thresholds (excluding the Drellguard's paper barriers) is the Shadow at 775/775 (maxed durability fitness). But when you factor in the DR she gets, her effective survivability is much higher. And again, none of this is difficulty level dependent.

On the one hand I hate to complain about the BC buffs they did give us, and they are helpful to varying degrees. I'm just really irked by the logically flawed excuse they gave for not giving us any form of increased survivability.

[Pedro Costa]

disappearingone11 wrote...
You know, it's things like this that really shoot holes in the "we can't buff you for higher difficulties because you'd be OP at lower difficulties" argument. What is it that nerfs an infiltrator's damage on bronze or silver? Absolutely nothing. And if that weren't enough, most infiltrators have higher shields than vanguards (Krogan excluded), and some even have more health (the Quarian male of all people ). The only one that falls below both thresholds (excluding the Drellguard's paper barriers) is the Shadow at 775/775 (maxed durability fitness). But when you factor in the DR she gets, her effective survivability is much higher. And again, none of this is difficulty level dependent.

On the one hand I hate to complain about the BC buffs they did give us, and they are helpful to varying degrees. I'm just really irked by the logically flawed excuse they gave for not giving us any form of increased survivability.

From what I understood from Eric's PM, they're still looking into it and trying to find ways to give us more survivability, so let's keep waiting and discussing =)
Although your points are extremely valid, the main reason is probably because most infis stick to Gold and Plat, while vanguards to bronze and silver.

Of course, as I said, I kept most of my vanguards in silver _because_ they have low survivability and damage output to be useful in Gold matches, otherwise, I'd be playing them in Gold, and that is the reason I think Eric should reassess his opinion.
Vanguard players stick to silver because they don't have the tools to be useful in Gold, not because Vanguard players like Silver or Bronze.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 22 août 2012 - 02:18 .

[Tymathee]

From what I understood from Eric's PM, they're still looking into it and trying to find ways to give us more survivability, so let's keep waiting and discussing =)
Although your points are extremely valid, the main reason is probably because most infis stick to Gold and Plat, while vanguards to bronze and silver.

Of course, as I said, I kept most of my vanguards in silver _because_ they have low survivability and damage output to be useful in Gold matches, otherwise, I'd be playing them in Gold, and that is the reason I think Eric should reassess his opinion.
Vanguard players stick to silver because they don't have the tools to be useful in Gold, not because Vanguard players like Silver or Bronze.

I agree, I genearlly dont play gold with a vanguard unless its the asari or cerberus, otherwise forget it.

The drell guard i dont even bother playing at all, i dont even spec it, it's way too weak and i have no idea why it has grenades, it should have reave, that would make it really good. tbh, no vanguard should have any type of grenades. If they have charge, they should have something that goes with it. I love to Lash(prime) charge, it's epic. Or smash (primes) charge. It's easily the best vangaurd, although the human's are quite fun if you nova/charge correctly (not charge nova like everybody does) Heck, i forgot they have shockwave! 

Vanguards really need some love, same with soldiers.

[SapientesGladio]

Why doesn't the Slayer have rank 4 melee bonus?

[atum]

tonnactus wrote...

Infiltrators get a boost of 40 percent for weapon, power and melee damage at rank one in addition to invisibility if done right. Another 40 percent in the fourth evolution of cloak. Then a possible boost for melee damage in rank 5. And in rank six,additional 25 weapon damage for sniper rifles. And this bonus is multiplikative.
Is this a joke too?

The Infiltrator is a tech/soldier hybrid and the Vanguard is biotic combat. Yet the benefits the class get for any kind of damage is pathetic,even regarding the new balance changes.

And regarding the risks involved by playing a Vanguard are far higher then the reward they get. This is the real joke.

You honestly believe you should have the combat power of an infiltrator or soldier? 

(Infiltrators are combat classes by the way, not tech/combat. (With the exception of the Salarian).   You're thinking of Sentinels. (Dunno why I was thinking this.  Mea culpa.)

Tactical cloak gives 1.5-2.5 seconds of damage boost (depending on how it's used, but typically only 1.5s).  

This is 2 claymore shots if you are very good at reload cancelling. 

You were asking for 8-10 seconds.  That's like 5+ Claymore shots, or at least an entire clip from a Piranha.

Let's review Tatical Cloak

• Rank 1) yes 40% not a joke
• Rank 2) 25% recharge speed
• Rank 3) duration
• Rank 4) +40% additive or 2x the duration  (most take damage, Shadow takes duration typically)
• Rank 5) 30% recharge or Melee damage (really only taken by a Shadow)
• Rank 6) Bonus power or 25% for Sniper Rifles (rendered mostly moot due to shield gate)

Notes on TC:

• Tactical cloak gives 1.5-2.5 seconds of damage boost.  The mechanic is strange, it lasts for 1.5 seconds after uncloaking, but the game "thinks" you have always cloaked for at least 1 second.  So if you cloak for more than 1 second, you only get 1.5 seconds of damage boost. If you are perfect in your timing and shoot immediately after cloaking, in theory you can get up to 2.5 seconds.
  
• Typical recharge time is about 3-4s if you just cloak in and out in under a second for the damage boost, thus negating most of the defensive benefits.
  
• Tatical Cloak prevents shield recharge and RESETS your shield recharge delay.
  
• Generally, the most effective infiltrators do not use sniper rifles any more so it's not even an evolution most people take.  And, sniper rifles have reduced damage to compensate for this. 

So, again, are you kidding?  Do you serioisly think Vanguards should have 8-10 seconds of 110% damage, after refilling their shields, while also being one of the most mobile classes in the game?  That's LONGER than the BASE cooldown of Biotic Charge.

Personally, I think Vanguards needed some love, but I think they got it in just the right way: some damage and force in thier signature ability.  I was very pleased to see the changes, my first character was an Asari Vanguard. But what you are proposing is ridiculously overpowered.  Vanguards are not Soldiers with Biotic Charge.  They are not infiltrators with massive damage spikes (intended to reflect that an enemy is taken by surprise when shot from cloak -- silly, but yeah).

I took out my AV last night with a Phalanx (of all things) and some incediary ammo.  It was quite effective and very fun to charge and shoot.  This was Gold and she was level 12.


TLDR: If you suggested a modest bump to the weapon synergy evolution of Biotic Charge, then I would agree, but what you suggest is waaaay too much.


*Note I am not dicussing balancing re:the vanguard glitch

edit: typos, clarity, ugh formatting, & fixed a mistake about combat roles I had

Modifié par atum, 22 août 2012 - 04:19 .

[Pedro Costa]

Tymathee wrote...
although the human's are quite fun if you nova/charge correctly (not charge nova like everybody does)

I do both of them. It keeps power recharge stacking, although I don't recommend Nova'ing a phantom in gold without Charge's power synergy up first, it's.... unhealthy =P

Slayers don't have melee damage because they're too squishy to be efficient melee spammers (yes, they have a melee tree, but it's either melee and die horribly or die not-as-horribly and don't melee), unlike the Krogan.

[atum]

disappearingone11 wrote...


You know, it's things like this that really shoot holes in the "we can't buff you for higher difficulties because you'd be OP at lower difficulties" argument. What is it that nerfs an infiltrator's damage on bronze or silver? Absolutely nothing. And if that weren't enough, most infiltrators have higher shields than vanguards (Krogan excluded), and some even have more health (the Quarian male of all people ). The only one that falls below both thresholds (excluding the Drellguard's paper barriers) is the Shadow at 775/775 (maxed durability fitness). But when you factor in the DR she gets, her effective survivability is much higher. And again, none of this is difficulty level dependent.

On the one hand I hate to complain about the BC buffs they did give us, and they are helpful to varying degrees. I'm just really irked by the logically flawed excuse they gave for not giving us any form of increased survivability.

I actually agree with this but not because of a comparision to Infiltrators.  The mechanics of the game are broken in such a way that make Vanguards hard to play on Gold and up.

But it's not due to Infiltrators that Vanguards are more prone to sync kills.  It's due to the mechanics of sync kills and the unique poweres of Vanguards. 

I agree with nearly everything in the first post of this discussion, but we shouldn't* go dragging out infiltrators as some excuse for Vanguard buffs.

Vanguards are great, but due to various mechancs they have some problems.  Best to focus on fixing that.


*(edited to show this is not directed at anyone in particular)

Modifié par atum, 22 août 2012 - 03:44 .

[disappearingone11]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

From what I understood from Eric's PM, they're still looking into it and trying to find ways to give us more survivability, so let's keep waiting and discussing =)
Although your points are extremely valid, the main reason is probably because most infis stick to Gold and Plat, while vanguards to bronze and silver.

Of course, as I said, I kept most of my vanguards in silver _because_ they have low survivability and damage output to be useful in Gold matches, otherwise, I'd be playing them in Gold, and that is the reason I think Eric should reassess his opinion.
Vanguard players stick to silver because they don't have the tools to be useful in Gold, not because Vanguard players like Silver or Bronze.

I hope you're right. If they're basing the argument solely on which classes tend to play at which difficulties, it makes sense at first glance. But all they have to do is ask, "Why?" and the answer becomes crystal clear.

I also keep mine at silver, and for the same reason. I occassionally venture into gold with the Krogan, but I usually underperform. I'm sure part of it is that I don't do it often enough to be proficient above silver, but again, there is a reason for that. A lot of people don't even want to chance playing with a vanguard, especially on platinum, so it's not uncommon to be kicked, told to switch, or just see people leave. The only exception is FWGG, but that doesn't really count.

[Pedro Costa]

atum wrote...
You honestly believe you should have the combat power of an infiltrator or soldier?  Infiltrators are combat classes by the way, not tech/combat. (With the exception of the Salarian).   You're thinking of Sentinels.

No, he isn't. Infis since ME1 were the tech/combat hybrid, vanguards the biotic/combat and sentinels the biotic/tech.

Vanguards are not Soldiers with Biotic Charge.  They are not infiltrators with massive damage spikes (intended to reflect that an enemy is take by suprise when shot from cloak).

But then, what are they? Weak adepts? Weak Soldiers?
Vanguards are a cqb class defined by being a combat-oriented biotic with a high-risk/high-reward playstyle. How does that not deserve significant damage output bonuses from the class power, like the other two combat-oriented classes?

Charge is high risk and now has good reward, apart from damage mitigation after a Charge.
That damage mitigation can be gained two ways from Charge: increase DR after a charge or increase damage output significantly to take out enemies before they take you out.

Given, ten seconds is a bit much, I agree as much.
However, I doubt any non-drell and non-krogan is going to go charging around with a claymore, that's another thing you neglected - infiltrators and soldiers couldn't care less about encumberance, so they can not only take the most powerful weapons without penalty, they can add insane damage multipliers to them.
Vanguards do not have that luxury.  180% weight is the most you can go without sacrificing Charge's cooldown too much.
So, no matter what, you won't see a 110% claymore damage totting Vanguard, unlike infiltrators.
Unless he's a drell, and drell are so squishy it evens out.
The Geth Infiltrator is a much worse offender of survivability vs damage output and very few people complain.

Also, infiltrators can also be 100% effective at ANY range, vanguards aren't, unless you're playing like a soldier, which probably means you should be playing with a soldier kit to begin with.
edit:

disappearingone11 wrote...
I also keep mine at silver, and for the same reason. I occassionally venture into gold with the Krogan, but I usually underperform. I'm sure part of it is that I don't do it often enough to be proficient above silver, but again, there is a reason for that. A lot of people don't even want to chance playing with a vanguard, especially on platinum, so it's not uncommon to be kicked, told to switch, or just see people leave. The only exception is FWGG, but that doesn't really count.

I'm on the same boat. Since the Charge update yesterday, I've decided to get used to Gold with full-Novaguard, but with people leaving my lobby (can't join because of glitch) because I'm using a Vanguard, it takes too long to fill it, and I don't usually have much free time, so I'm forced to downgrade to Silver.

Hopefully Eric's reading this topic and pays heed to those of us who purposefuly keep their Vanguards in Silver because they don't have the tools to perform well in Gold.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 22 août 2012 - 03:57 .

[Achire]

Sync kills really aren't a problem on Platinum. The problem is getting staggered. Or losing all your shields right after Charge for seemingly no reason.

[atum]

DarkLord_PT wrote...
...

Making this about infiltrators diminishes your argument. 

So, no matter what, you won't see a 110% claymore damage totting Vanguard, unlike infiltrators.

Actually you do see this with the AV, but she is the exception like the Salarian is to the infiltrators. 

You're right about the pure combat part I was mistaken, will edit that.

Also, infiltrators can also be 100% effective at ANY range

Not all of them.  Shotgun maybe, but he was using the 25% sniper damage as an excuse for his damage.  Snipers are not good at CQC.


Edit:

infiltrators and soldiers couldn't care less about encumberance

Encumbrance matters if you stay cloaked for more than a second since the TC duration nerf.  This is common misperception.  People say that infiltrators have the best defense by being invisible AND ignore weight, but neither is true.  Both are more complex than that.


And while your right most wont run with a Claymore, the Piranha is probably even better anyways, and plenty light.

Modifié par atum, 22 août 2012 - 04:15 .

[Pedro Costa]

atum wrote...
Making this about infiltrators diminishes your argument. 

 
Agreed as much, it's more about bringing a combat-oriented class close to the other combat-oriented ones.

Actually you do see this with the AV, but she is the exception like the Salarian is to the infiltrators. 

Never saw one so didn't know that =P

Not all of them.  Shotgun maybe, but he was using the 25% sniper damage as an excuse for his damage.  Snipers are not good at CQC.

True enough.

Encumbrance matters if you stay cloaked for more than a second since the TC duration nerf.  This is common misperception.  People say that infiltrators have the best defense by being invisible AND ignore weight, but neither is true.  Both are more complex than that.

Never noticed it, thanks for the info.

And while your right most wont run with a Claymore, the Piranha is probably even better anyways, and plenty light.

Still need to get mine to X before being able to comment on it =P

[disappearingone11]

atum wrote...

I actually agree with this but not because of a comparision to Infiltrators.  The mechanics of the game are broken in such a way that make Vanguards hard to play on Gold and up.

But it's not due to Infiltrators that Vanguards are more prone to sync kills.  It's due to the mechanics of sync kills and the unique poweres of Vanguards. 

I agree with nearly everything in the first post of this discussion, but we shouldn't* go dragging out infiltrators as some excuse for Vanguard buffs.

Vanguards are great, but due to various mechancs they have some problems.  Best to focus on fixing that.


*(edited to show this is not directed at anyone in particular)

I'm not singling out infiltrators, I'm just using them as an example for comparison, which is fair because they are hybrid soldiers just as vanguards are. Or at least they're supposed to be: by definition vanguards are adept/soldiers; infiltrators are engineer/soldiers; and sentinels are adept/engineers. That examples from all three classes don't play like they're technically supposed to is true, and that's actually one of the core reasons why this thread and others like it exist: most vanguards do not work well either conceptually or practically, and to a far greater extent than other classes.

That said, gameplay mechanics are indeed part of the problem. The sync kill issue for vanguards is linked to BC, though the buffs have helped a lot because increased staggering offers protection against it. I'm also not overly concerned about weapon damage syngery because while it's weaker than an infiltrator's TC bonus, it's still high enough to work conditionally. That condition, however, is weapon type, and vanguards still have an encumbrance problem when it comes to using anything heavier than a pistol or light weight AR because they're so dependent on BC for barrier restoration. And that brings me to my final point, which is simply that non-Krogan vanguards are still way too squishy for close combat, whether with weapons or melee.

Edit: you and DarkLord_PT have already posted about most of these issues while I was writing my reply, so disregard anything already addressed.

Modifié par disappearingone11, 22 août 2012 - 04:34 .

[Achire]

From the Vanguard bug whine thread:
"We're working hard to try to resolve this bug for the next patch. It's at the top of our list."

[atum]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Never saw one so didn't know that =P

Check this out: 

http://social.biowar...ndex/12828612/1

Crazy Drunk Asari Vanguard

 

New Video: 
 

The story is simple, she had more alcohol than usual and someone has taken her red sand.

She
does not have Fitness, no health, no nothing because the level of
alcohol in her blood is not too good, but she is very mad, had a good
weapon and tons of granades.

Her build is 6/6/6/6/0

With this Asari there is a variation of my normal build ( because she's drunk ) instead of power damage I choose hit 2 targets.
Then weapon damage after charge
and 100% Barrier.

Stasis: 150% damage before Stasis break, use 2 powers, Stasis bubble. 

Granades: Damage, +1, Damage.


Another
Tip: as you saw in the video, I use Stasis and granades to make some
biotic explosions, I also use Stasis and if the cooldown allowes me I
use charge and then granades, lot of deaths in seconds.

Modifié par atum, 22 août 2012 - 05:09 .

[GeneralFrisk]

Using the N7 Crusader on my Kroguard. It's disgustingly strong. It's perfect for those Objectives where you can't charge. Otherwise I stick to Heavy Melee and Charge. I'm currently debating wether or not I want to max everything with 0 points in Carnage, or if I want 5 in Barrier and 3 in carnage.

[GeneralFrisk]

Double post, sorry.

Modifié par GeneralFrisk, 22 août 2012 - 05:31 .

[Pedro Costa]

atum wrote...
Check this out: 

Hehe, good thing I kept a respec card in hand, thanks =)

[disappearingone11]

GeneralFrisk wrote...

Using the N7 Crusader on my Kroguard. It's disgustingly strong. It's perfect for those Objectives where you can't charge. Otherwise I stick to Heavy Melee and Charge. I'm currently debating wether or not I want to max everything with 0 points in Carnage, or if I want 5 in Barrier and 3 in carnage.

With that weapon choice definitely 6 in barrier. I like the crusader, but its weight is as Mordin would say, "Problematic." Or as I would say, it's like hauling a dead Krogan around on your back. You need the power penalty reduction.

[disappearingone11]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Hehe, good thing I kept a respec card in hand, thanks =)

Might as well keep it, this weekend's op is to promote your toons.

[Pedro Costa]

disappearingone11 wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Hehe, good thing I kept a respec card in hand, thanks =)

Might as well keep it, this weekend's op is to promote your toons.

Haha, just read it.
Indeed, better to respec the whole class, I've been wanting to respec my phoenix and slayer anyway.

[joker_jack]

Vanguards will be an easy promote for this weekends operation.

[MP-Ryan]

GeneralFrisk wrote...

Using the N7 Crusader on my Kroguard. It's disgustingly strong. It's perfect for those Objectives where you can't charge. Otherwise I stick to Heavy Melee and Charge. I'm currently debating wether or not I want to max everything with 0 points in Carnage, or if I want 5 in Barrier and 3 in carnage.

Trust me, you want nothing in Carnage.  Full fitness makes the kroguard unstoppable.  Carnage is a waste.

[TehMerc]

Thought I'd try out my Shotguard build again but it's still not strong enough to bother with when the power damage evolution is just that much better.

To have a short enough cooldown on Charge I feel like it's a total necessity to bring lighter weapons and they either don't pack enough damage between shots or they require more shots to do full damage (Piranha) and being out of nova frames longer than I want.

Needs to be either a shorter cooldown on charge/ higher starting encumbrance (not likely since that'll make certain power builds pretty trivial) or the weapon damage evolution needs to include some passive weight reduction. That's not as simple as tweaking files so I'm sure it's not gonna happen but yeah.

Course, I was always a sucker for the Claymore so I'm pretty biased.