851 réponses à ce sujet

[RamsenC]

TehMerc wrote...

Thought I'd try out my Shotguard build again but it's still not strong enough to bother with when the power damage evolution is just that much better.

Powers have fairly low base damage so that 40% more damage for Nova doesn't really add up to that much. I play a more weapon based Novaguard though. Would be worthwhile for Smashguard.

[TehMerc]

RamsenC wrote...
Powers have fairly low base damage so that 40% more damage for Nova doesn't really add up to that much. I play a more weapon based Novaguard though. Would be worthwhile for Smashguard.

Just feels more effcient as a power spamming Novaguard though. What have you been using, heaviest thing I could get to work was Graal's with half blast but I felt like I contributed more with a power build.

[Psycho Pisces]

Forgive me community, for I have sinned.

Until this day, I have underestimated the god which is a hosted Kroguard.

I think my friends have muted me, because I became krogan and joyfully grunted with my character as I destroyed. MUwahahahahah!

[tonnactus]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Although your points are extremely valid, the main reason is probably because most infis stick to Gold and Plat, while vanguards to bronze and silver.

The obvious reason for this is the fact that Vanguards lost utility the higher the difficulty is.(except the Krogan)

[tonnactus]

atum wrote...



You honestly believe you should have the combat power of an infiltrator or soldier? 

Of course they should, at least with shotguns,like it was the case in the former two games. In Mass Effect 2, they could compete with Infiltrators and Soldiers  because of the short range multiplier(x2-->100 percent)
Vanguards role is it to be biotic soldier, excelling at close range combat and using shotguns.
Like they are now, neither their surviablity(except krogan) nor their weapon damage is big enough for this.

Tactical cloak gives 1.5-2.5 seconds of damage boost (depending on how it's used, but typically only 1.5s).  

All infiltrators except the basic human have a good power that deals more then 1000 points of of damage boosted by cloak to multiple enemies. Proxy mine alone not only debuff,but also take out multiple trooper enemies.
And all good infiltrators use their power before they start shooting( cloak-proximity mine-shoot(Geth and Salarian), Sabotage(Quarian female), Arc Grenade(Quarian male,not even uncloak))

You were asking for 8-10 seconds. 

No, i dont. Rather then a meager boost for 8-10 seconds,make the duration shorter,but increase the boost  so it reachs at least 80 percent. Or let the boost be 25 percent, but let it stack up to 2-3 times. (depends if an innate bonus is included)

[*]Tatical Cloak prevents shield recharge and RESETS your shield recharge delay.

We assume good players using the classes. A good one cloaks, use a damaging power, shoots and is in cover again before taking serious damage.
And the Salarian and the Shadow could refill their shields while dealing heavy damage to enemies.

Generally, the most effective infiltrators do not use sniper rifles any more so it's not even an evolution most people take.  And, sniper rifles have reduced damage to compensate for this. 

The Raptor and Indra could easily compete even with the Harrier, while having far more ammo reserves. Shield gate also isnt a problem with multishoot snipers. The Kishock(requires hosting) also ignores shieldgate and deals,with the sniper evolution at 6 nearly as much damage as the Claymore.
https://docs.google....Ync&output=html

Personally, I think Vanguards needed some love, but I think they got it in just the right way: some damage and force in thier signature ability.  I was very pleased to see the changes, my first character was an Asari Vanguard. But what you are proposing is ridiculously overpowered.  Vanguards are not Soldiers with Biotic Charge.

Except that this is exactly what they are in the two former games and should be now:

The Vanguard is a powerful combatant, able to combine the offensive powers of the Adept and the Soldier

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Vanguard

So what offensive power of a Soldier means?
Weapon damage,in the case of the Vanguard, damage with pistols and shotguns comparable to that what soldier could deal.
Also some surviability.

And by the way, far more weight capacity or shotguns should get an innate weight reduction for them. Absurd enough to see so many Vanguards with pistols to keep their cooldown low.

Modifié par tonnactus, 23 août 2012 - 01:04 .

[tonnactus]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Slayers don't have melee damage because they're too squishy to be efficient melee spammers (yes, they have a melee tree, but it's either melee and die horribly or die not-as-horribly and don't melee), unlike the Krogan.

They get 80 percent damage reduction for their light melee.

[Quething]

I'm still hung up on the bizarre idea that survivability is complicated to balance across difficulty levels.

I mean, ok, difficulty scaling is really poorly designed in this game, that's not news. Weapon damage *mostly* scales, and thus weapon damage buffs scale, because the store system means there's a general correlation between higher difficulty and better weapons, but power damage is fixed and damage-boosting equipment is too rare and too weak to remotely compare to weapon scaling, which is why you generally see speed runs done with infiltrators; power damage just can't keep up without becoming stupidly overpowered on Bronze and Silver. Raw shield/health numbers have the same issue - damage on higher levels is so high that you basically have to start doubling shield numbers to make a real difference in shots-to-kill on most characters, and doing that would make a character effectively unkillable at low levels.

But that is what damage reduction is for. 50% effective DR means 50% less incoming damage on Bronze exactly the same as on Platinum. It doubles survivability on Silver exactly as it does on Gold. It is one of the few things that actually scales effectively. It also magnifies the effect of shield-boosting gear significantly, which has the pleasant side-effect of making those scale effectively too.

Finding the right number might be tricky, but you only have to find it once. DR sufficient to survive on Platinum with intelligently chosen gear is still going to be perfectly reasonable when applied to a Bronze player who can't afford more than the occasional Shield 1.

Now, the difficulty in making Nova properly useful, that one I'll give them.

Modifié par Quething, 23 août 2012 - 01:48 .

[Pedro Costa]

tonnactus wrote...
They get 80 percent damage reduction for their light melee.

I know, the point I was trying to make is that it is still too squishy of a kit to be melee'ing around.

Quething  wrote....
But that is what damage reduction is for. 50% effective DR means 50% less incoming damage on Bronze exactly the same as on Platinum. It doubles survivability on Silver exactly as it does on Gold. It is one of the few things that actually scales effectively. It also magnifies the effect of shield-boosting gear significantly, which has the pleasant side-effect of making those scale effectively too.

Finding the right number might be tricky, but you only have to find it once. DR sufficient to survive on Platinum with intelligently chosen gear is still going to be perfectly reasonable when applied to a Bronze player who can't afford more than the occasional Shield 1.

 
Didn't even think of it from that side... it actually makes sense. 50% is 50%, it scales by itself. Damn...

Now, the difficulty in making Nova properly useful, that one I'll give them.

 
Hmm... if it's a full-damage spec'd nova, then, well, grenades do the same insane damage across all difficulties and hit multiple targets, right? So, I don't see why a power that demands you to be within 5 meters distance of your target and expending all your barriers in front of said target can't do damage comparable to that of a grenade.
Also makes thematic sense in my opinion, fly like a bullet (charge), hit like a grenade (nova), the animations of both powers even lend themselves to this concept =P

[disappearingone11]

Quething wrote...

I'm still hung up on the bizarre idea that survivability is complicated to balance across difficulty levels.

I mean, ok, difficulty scaling is really poorly designed in this game, that's not news. Weapon damage *mostly* scales, and thus weapon damage buffs scale, because the store system means there's a general correlation between higher difficulty and better weapons, but power damage is fixed and damage-boosting equipment is too rare and too weak to remotely compare to weapon scaling, which is why you generally see speed runs done with infiltrators; power damage just can't keep up without becoming stupidly overpowered on Bronze and Silver. Raw shield/health numbers have the same issue - damage on higher levels is so high that you basically have to start doubling shield numbers to make a real difference in shots-to-kill on most characters, and doing that would make a character effectively unkillable at low levels.

But that is what damage reduction is for. 50% effective DR means 50% less incoming damage on Bronze exactly the same as on Platinum. It doubles survivability on Silver exactly as it does on Gold. It is one of the few things that actually scales effectively. It also magnifies the effect of shield-boosting gear significantly, which has the pleasant side-effect of making those scale effectively too.

Finding the right number might be tricky, but you only have to find it once. DR sufficient to survive on Platinum with intelligently chosen gear is still going to be perfectly reasonable when applied to a Bronze player who can't afford more than the occasional Shield 1.

Now, the difficulty in making Nova properly useful, that one I'll give them.

The DR solution makes too much sense, hence it can't be implemented.

(j/k to any BW people who may be reading this)

Given that the goal has to be something that's both useful and scales with difficulty, a % of DR clearly seems to be the best solution. I'd say something in the 40-50% range would be about right, and I'd tie it to BC: give X percentage of DR for, say, 3-5 seconds following a charge. That would make BC far more viable and encourage people to use it that much more, both good things imo. And if it encouraged more vanguards to move up from bronze/silver, I think that would be a good thing as well.

The next question is whether or not this could be done with or without a patch, and I leave that to those who are far more knowledgeable about the programming aspects involved than myself.

[disappearingone11]

tonnactus wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Slayers don't have melee damage because they're too squishy to be efficient melee spammers (yes, they have a melee tree, but it's either melee and die horribly or die not-as-horribly and don't melee), unlike the Krogan.

They get 80 percent damage reduction for their light melee.

I didn't realize that, but probably because using melee with him can be dicey even on bronze. I like the concept, though, simply because vanguards should be proficient at melee combat, especially one who carries a true melee weapon.

Modifié par disappearingone11, 23 août 2012 - 03:59 .

[Quething]

disappearingone11 wrote...

The next question is whether or not this could be done with or without a patch, and I leave that to those who are far more knowledgeable about the programming aspects involved than myself.

No patch necessary. Charge already has built-in, undocumented damage reduction; it's that blue barrier glow you get around you for a few seconds after the ability fires. It's just that it's not really enough damage reduction to make any difference. IIRC though the DR value is right there in the C.bin, if not the duration, so a tweak to that number would be a big step for us.

Now, frontal cone stagger immunity, that would require a patch. We can throw that in when they patch us for a native weapon damage bonus at rank one. 

[Achire]

That's what the "we don't want to make them overpowered on Silver" comment from Fagnan was about. I was asking to buff the DR from 50% (37.5%, 1.6 multiplier) to 65% (48.75%, 1.95 multiplier). The duration of the DR is 4 seconds. Proof.

Modifié par Achire, 23 août 2012 - 04:53 .

[disappearingone11]

Quething wrote...

No patch necessary. Charge already has built-in, undocumented damage reduction; it's that blue barrier glow you get around you for a few seconds after the ability fires. It's just that it's not really enough damage reduction to make any difference. IIRC though the DR value is right there in the C.bin, if not the duration, so a tweak to that number would be a big step for us.

Now, frontal cone stagger immunity, that would require a patch. We can throw that in when they patch us for a native weapon damage bonus at rank one. 

If that's the case, then I'm truly baffled as to why it hasn't been done. The only questions would be how much DR and for how long, and they've had almost six months to figure it out. The answers can't be that difficult, so there must be something more to it.

[disappearingone11]

Achire wrote...

That's what the "we don't want to make them overpowered on Silver" comment from Fagnan was about. I was asking to buff the DR from 50% (37.5%, 1.6 multiplier) to 65% (48.75%, 1.95 multiplier). The duration of the DR is 4 seconds. Proof.

If vanguards already have 50% for 4 seconds, then I don't think 65% would make a noticeable difference.

[Elecbender]

disappearingone11 wrote...

Achire wrote...

That's what the "we don't want to make them overpowered on Silver" comment from Fagnan was about. I was asking to buff the DR from 50% (37.5%, 1.6 multiplier) to 65% (48.75%, 1.95 multiplier). The duration of the DR is 4 seconds. Proof.

If vanguards already have 50% for 4 seconds, then I don't think 65% would make a noticeable difference.

Well the Slayer would be completely immune from non-interruptable damage during the light melee if this was implemented.

[disappearingone11]

Elecbender wrote...

disappearingone11 wrote...

Achire wrote...

That's what the "we don't want to make them overpowered on Silver" comment from Fagnan was about. I was asking to buff the DR from 50% (37.5%, 1.6 multiplier) to 65% (48.75%, 1.95 multiplier). The duration of the DR is 4 seconds. Proof.

If vanguards already have 50% for 4 seconds, then I don't think 65% would make a noticeable difference.

Well the Slayer would be completely immune from non-interruptable damage during the light melee if this was implemented.

If the Slayer's light melee grants 80% DR and stacks with BC's DR, then we're talking about the difference between 130% and 145% DR. Unless there's an immunity threshold between those two values, I don't see the problem.

[Elecbender]

Immunity is at 133%.

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...

That's what the "we don't want to make them overpowered on Silver" comment from Fagnan was about. I was asking to buff the DR from 50% (37.5%, 1.6 multiplier) to 65% (48.75%, 1.95 multiplier).

I don't understand his reasoning, then. 

disappearingone11 wrote...
If vanguards already have 50% for 4 seconds, then I don't think 65% would make a noticeable difference.

 
It would because the 50% is before applying a formula for the effective damage reduction.
In other words, the real damage reduction you get after charging is 37.5%, whereas with a 65% you'd get close to 50% effective damage reduction. But, without testing, I still don't know how much of a difference it'd make, and I can't test because I don't want to be banned =P

[RinShepard]

Achire wrote...

That's what the "we don't want to make them overpowered on Silver" comment from Fagnan was about. I was asking to buff the DR from 50% (37.5%, 1.6 multiplier) to 65% (48.75%, 1.95 multiplier). The duration of the DR is 4 seconds. Proof.

What's the exact relation between displayed DR and effective DR? Does anyone know for sure or are people just using a linear model with [0,133] into [0,100]?

Modifié par RinShepard, 23 août 2012 - 05:33 .

[RamsenC]

TehMerc wrote...

RamsenC wrote...
Powers have fairly low base damage so that 40% more damage for Nova doesn't really add up to that much. I play a more weapon based Novaguard though. Would be worthwhile for Smashguard.

Just feels more effcient as a power spamming Novaguard though. What have you been using, heaviest thing I could get to work was Graal's with half blast but I felt like I contributed more with a power build.

I use the Piranha X and the Scorpion X with ULM. If you get all weight reduction your cooldowns are still very good.

[Achire]

I don't think going from taking 2.5% of damage to 0% would be that big of a deal for Slayers.

Like I posted earlier, 50% DR means a health multiplier of 1.6. As an example, a Human or Asari with Fitness 6 has 825 Barrier. While the Charge DR bonus is active, the barrier is effectually 825 * 1.6 = 1320. If the bonus was 65% instead, effective barrier would become 1.951 * 825 = 1610. It makes the most difference when a hit that earlier would have taken your full barrier now only takes most of it, so you don't lose your shield gate.

[Achire]

RinShepard wrote...

Achire wrote...

That's what the "we don't want to make them overpowered on Silver" comment from Fagnan was about. I was asking to buff the DR from 50% (37.5%, 1.6 multiplier) to 65% (48.75%, 1.95 multiplier). The duration of the DR is 4 seconds. Proof.

What's the exact relation between displayed DR and effective DR? Does anyone know for sure or are people just using a linear model with [0,133] into [0,100]?

It's just 75% of whatever they say it is. So 50% is really 37.5% etc. See this thread.

[disappearingone11]

Elecbender wrote...

Immunity is at 133%.

Ah, I see. That makes some sense, though with it still being limited to the single attack of a single character, I don't see it being a major problem for the entire class. Some tweaking of the Slayer alone could probably solve it.

Modifié par disappearingone11, 23 août 2012 - 05:58 .

[RinShepard]

Achire wrote...

RinShepard wrote...

Achire wrote...

That's what the "we don't want to make them overpowered on Silver" comment from Fagnan was about. I was asking to buff the DR from 50% (37.5%, 1.6 multiplier) to 65% (48.75%, 1.95 multiplier). The duration of the DR is 4 seconds. Proof.

What's the exact relation between displayed DR and effective DR? Does anyone know for sure or are people just using a linear model with [0,133] into [0,100]?

It's just 75% of whatever they say it is. So 50% is really 37.5% etc. See this thread.

That's a pretty good thread. And it's 4 months old. I wonder how I missed it.

[disappearingone11]

Achire wrote...

I don't think going from taking 2.5% of damage to 0% would be that big of a deal for Slayers.

Like I posted earlier, 50% DR means a health multiplier of 1.6. As an example, a Human or Asari with Fitness 6 has 825 Barrier. While the Charge DR bonus is active, the barrier is effectually 825 * 1.6 = 1320. If the bonus was 65% instead, effective barrier would become 1.951 * 825 = 1610. It makes the most difference when a hit that earlier would have taken your full barrier now only takes most of it, so you don't lose your shield gate.

Isn't this kind of the idea, though? Giving us a little more survivability? An extra 290 barrier (for 4 seconds) isn't exactly going to turn vanguards into gods. Certainly not the Drell, who'd go from an effective 720 to 878. The Krogan's the only one who'd unfairly benefit from this, and that's an easy problem to solve: keep him at 50%.

Modifié par disappearingone11, 23 août 2012 - 06:00 .