851 réponses à ce sujet

[megawug]

With the recent buff, vanguards are viable in gold, IMHO. Platinum will always be difficult because BC is not well-suited for boss-heavy encounters.

I'm okay with not playing vanguards on platinum (excluding kroguard obviously). I'm not skilled enough to play most classes on platinum anyway.

The only real issue for me is the charge glitch. But for the most part, I've learned to avoid charging excessively on laggy sessions.

[Achire]

Good point. Probably makes more sense to make another "share your tips" type thread.

[Tybo]

Lucrece wrote...
 Stagger resistance for Vanguard classes baseline would help a LOT, since it's those prime canons and rocket troopers and Guardian staggers that will screw you out of a charge.

This is all I want.  I'd be a happy vanguard if my charge didn't lead me into phantom slashes, guardian shield bashes, and other melee staggers.  No melee of a charging vanguard would be awesome.

[Pedro Costa]

tyhw wrote...
This is all I want.  I'd be a happy vanguard if my charge didn't lead me into phantom slashes, guardian shield bashes, and other melee staggers.  No melee of a charging vanguard would be awesome.

The more I play, the more I agree. Stagger immunity and I'd be a very, very happy vanguard.

[MP-Ryan]

Reading the last several posts, I'm inclined to agree - give the novaguards and drell 10N more base force and the entire Vanguard class stagger immunity. That would fix the entire class for platinum viability, since your squishiness would drop off immensely if you could no longer be stunlocked. The 3.08 second delay on charge is survivable if staggers don't intervene - the kroguard proves this as he can be played without the barrier power (just much harder).

There are several alternatives - I've listed them previously in this thread - but immunity to stagger is the one thing that would improve all the vanguards to the point of platinum viability.  And let's face it, it would not break bronze/silver either as it's already difficult for a skilled vanguard to be stunlock on those difficulties to begin with given the spread of bosses in waves.

That 10N base force for the drell and novaguard is a must though.  Frankly, radius is a requirement on gold if you want to survive the Phantom sorority, the Pyro fraternity, or the Maurader/Brute mosh pit.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 03 septembre 2012 - 03:24 .

[Pedro Costa]

Huh, seems we've reached a... consensus. More 10N for Nova and Drellguards, and slap frontal stagger immunity to all vanguards and call it a day.

...until the power creep seeps in again.

[Moxy_Pirate]

The only vanguard that needs stagger immunity is the Battlemaster. The rest are fine. Oboist vanguard on platinum (PS3) and have no issues what so ever. I also lead on score as well. Of you take the time to learn when you can charge, etc., you can perform very strongly with a Vanguard.

[Moxy_Pirate]

Sorry for typos.. Posting with iPhone.

[Pedro Costa]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

The only vanguard that needs stagger immunity is the Battlemaster. The rest are fine. Oboist vanguard on platinum (PS3) and have no issues what so ever. I also lead on score as well. Of you take the time to learn when you can charge, etc., you can perform very strongly with a Vanguard.

Novaguard solo platinum vid when, then?
And, I appologise for what I'm about to say beforehand, but most of the times someone says "l2p", usually that person is either trying to troll, never took all their vanguards above Silver or only played with actual teammates who primed their targets.

And only the Kroguard needs stagger immunity? Seriously? The character with the most damage-dealing Charge, a melee that hurts like a truck, 50% base encumbrance and 1000/1000 base health/barrier is the one that needs stagger immunity?

[Achire]

The thing about stagger immunity is that it's unlikely to be in the upcoming patch, and the next one is coming out in 2013.

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...

The thing about stagger immunity is that it's unlikely to be in the upcoming patch, and the next one is coming out in 2013.

True, but still... today I died more due to stupid staggers than anything else, I'm really annoyed about it right now =P

[Moxy_Pirate]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

The only vanguard that needs stagger immunity is the Battlemaster. The rest are fine. Oboist vanguard on platinum (PS3) and have no issues what so ever. I also lead on score as well. Of you take the time to learn when you can charge, etc., you can perform very strongly with a Vanguard.

Novaguard solo platinum vid when, then?
And, I appologise for what I'm about to say beforehand, but most of the times someone says "l2p", usually that person is either trying to troll, never took all their vanguards above Silver or only played with actual teammates who primed their targets.

And only the Kroguard needs stagger immunity? Seriously? The character with the most damage-dealing Charge, a melee that hurts like a truck, 50% base encumbrance and 1000/1000 base health/barrier is the one that needs stagger immunity?

Really?! I have to post a video of me soloing Platinum to prove Vanguards are fine? Ad hominem attacks because I disagree makes you sound pretty dumb. The ONLY reason Battlemasters "need" stagger immunity is because they can't dodge. Dodging after a charge gives you retarded amounts of survivability vs. Bosses. Infact, played correctly, the dodging characters actually have more survivability than a Battlemaster in most situations. The fact that you think Battlemaster melee is a boon on platinum lets me know that you clearly dont know what you are talking about. The only time you can heavy melee with a Krogan in Platinum is when you rarely are iso with an enemy. Otherwise you want to be applying pressure to crowds of mobs coming your way.

After the buff, all vanguards can take the splash damage charge evo and still stagger everything they charge. I typically play Asari Vanguard on Platinum (6,6,6,5,3). As a Vanguard, yes helping on B.E.s is a strength, but you don't have to be a detonator to be helpful. You can absolutely do a ton of damage in Platinum on a Vanguard.

[MP-Ryan]

I finally unlocked a Shadow a few days ago (about frickin' time), and I was playing through a match with Achire and a few other days, and I kept thinking to myself and commenting on the mic: "This is what a Vanguard should be."

Mulling it over some more, the reason why the Shadow is better at being a Vanguard than most of the Vanguards at high difficulty is because of the way she is built - get in close, perform a devastating attack, don't get stunlocked, and keep moving. Tactical cloak and shadow strike synergize perfectly in that regard.

The problem with biotic charge is it fulfills the get in close aspect of vanguards, but there isn't enough brawn to the majority of the vanguards to do what they're supposed to do once there. Sure, the kroguard does, but we've long since established he's the only vanguard that plays like one. The novaguard thrives up close by exploiting (not in the bannable sense) invulnerability frames from BC/Nova once synergy is up, which is more of a workaround than anything.

Frankly, next to the kroguard, the Shadow (if specced out of Electric slash) is the best vanguard in the game at doing what vanguards do, and she's an infiltrator. And she isn't doing it ebcause she's beefy, but because she has an ability (tactical cloak) that increases her survivability at short range immensely.

I'm not holding my breath here, but Vanguards need something to add to their short range survivability beyond what Charge provides, much in the way that the Shadow has abilities beyond Shadow Strike. Immunity to stagger/stunlock would be a good start, but I'm sure there are other ways of addressing this as well. Though pretty much all of them require a patch.

[MP-Ryan]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

After the buff, all vanguards can take the splash damage charge evo and still stagger everything they charge. I typically play Asari Vanguard on Platinum (6,6,6,5,3). As a Vanguard, yes helping on B.E.s is a strength, but you don't have to be a detonator to be helpful. You can absolutely do a ton of damage in Platinum on a Vanguard.

False.  Drell and Novaguard cannot stagger Phantoms with radius without relying on the 11 second run-up from power synergy.

And, as the majority have been saying throughout the thread, sure vanguards can do what they do on Platinum, but the sad fact is that every other class does it better.

Also, while it has been shown that Novaguards can make it through platinum games, a central premise of this discussion is that novaguards are one of the least viable vanguards in Platinum because they have not kept up with power creep.

Perhaps read the thread?

EDIT:  Oh, and kroguard heavy melee DR is insanely useful on Platinum so long as you pick your moments.  I use it quite frequently... and no, that is not the reason for my periodic sync kills, those are due to magnet hands nonsense after my stalker teleports right next to me through the wall.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 03 septembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[Pedro Costa]

Want to play as a vanguard? Here, take this infiltrator.

I'd love to pick the brain of whoever came up with that idea.

[Moxy_Pirate]

MP-Ryan wrote...

I finally unlocked a Shadow a few days ago (about frickin' time), and I was playing through a match with Achire and a few other days, and I kept thinking to myself and commenting on the mic: "This is what a Vanguard should be."

Mulling it over some more, the reason why the Shadow is better at being a Vanguard than most of the Vanguards at high difficulty is because of the way she is built - get in close, perform a devastating attack, don't get stunlocked, and keep moving. Tactical cloak and shadow strike synergize perfectly in that regard.

The problem with biotic charge is it fulfills the get in close aspect of vanguards, but there isn't enough brawn to the majority of the vanguards to do what they're supposed to do once there. Sure, the kroguard does, but we've long since established he's the only vanguard that plays like one. The novaguard thrives up close by exploiting (not in the bannable sense) invulnerability frames from BC/Nova once synergy is up, which is more of a workaround than anything.

Frankly, next to the kroguard, the Shadow (if specced out of Electric slash) is the best vanguard in the game at doing what vanguards do, and she's an infiltrator. And she isn't doing it ebcause she's beefy, but because she has an ability (tactical cloak) that increases her survivability at short range immensely.

I'm not holding my breath here, but Vanguards need something to add to their short range survivability beyond what Charge provides, much in the way that the Shadow has abilities beyond Shadow Strike. Immunity to stagger/stunlock would be a good start, but I'm sure there are other ways of addressing this as well. Though pretty much all of them require a patch.

I can't disagree with you more. First of all, Biotic Charge is not just a way to stagger an enemy, but it is also a shield regen tool. Being able to charge you shields back to 100% is pretty amazing. ALL the vanguards can deal a ton of splash damage (their strength) making them amazing against crowds. The fact that you think a Shadow is "the best" Vanguard tells me you have never been in a match with a good vanguard.

The only thing that I think all vanguards should be able to do is create their own Biotic Explosions. But honestly, I think for the most part Vanguards are really close to being fine. Fix the Vanguard glitch so that I dont HAVE to host and I am a happy camper.

[MP-Ryan]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
I can't disagree with you more. First of all, Biotic Charge is not just a way to stagger an enemy, but it is also a shield regen tool. Being able to charge you shields back to 100% is pretty amazing. ALL the vanguards can deal a ton of splash damage (their strength) making them amazing against crowds. The fact that you think a Shadow is "the best" Vanguard tells me you have never been in a match with a good vanguard.

The only thing that I think all vanguards should be able to do is create their own Biotic Explosions. But honestly, I think for the most part Vanguards are really close to being fine. Fix the Vanguard glitch so that I dont HAVE to host and I am a happy camper.

Read the thread.  I play Vanguard nearly exclusively, though that may change following the shadow's introduction.

Incidentally, I said the shadow is the best at doing what a vanguard does next to the kroguard.  As for the rest of your generalizations, they've all been addressed multiple times previously in the thread and no one has yet provided a satisfactory demonstration of how vanguards are as effective on platinum as any of the other classes without resorting to specific team compositions to aid them.

As for the "ton of splash damage," radius-specced charge deals 660 damage on a novaguard.  That ramps up with synergy, but not all that much.  Shadow strike, which can be used while you're INVISIBLE, does 1200 without the bonus from TC.  What's funny is that radius carnage, one of the worst powers in the game, does 595 damage.  So what was that about BC doing a ton of splash damage?  It does a minor stagger, at best, with some collateral damage.  To be clear, a Talon X, the ideal vanguard weapon, does over 700 damage in one shot.

So, yeah... read the thread, then comment.  BC's shield restore is nowhere near as good as people make it sound when it comes to platinum games.  The risk of BC still far outweighs the reward because of the way vanguards are modelled.  Kroguard is the exception to the rule.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:03 .

[Moxy_Pirate]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

After the buff, all vanguards can take the splash damage charge evo and still stagger everything they charge. I typically play Asari Vanguard on Platinum (6,6,6,5,3). As a Vanguard, yes helping on B.E.s is a strength, but you don't have to be a detonator to be helpful. You can absolutely do a ton of damage in Platinum on a Vanguard.

False.  Drell and Novaguard cannot stagger Phantoms with radius without relying on the 11 second run-up from power synergy.

And, as the majority have been saying throughout the thread, sure vanguards can do what they do on Platinum, but the sad fact is that every other class does it better.

Also, while it has been shown that Novaguards can make it through platinum games, a central premise of this discussion is that novaguards are one of the least viable vanguards in Platinum because they have not kept up with power creep.

Perhaps read the thread?

EDIT:  Oh, and kroguard heavy melee DR is insanely useful on Platinum so long as you pick your moments.  I use it quite frequently... and no, that is not the reason for my periodic sync kills, those are due to magnet hands nonsense after my stalker teleports right next to me through the wall.

Misinformation. All Vanguards except the Krogan have the same force and damage on Biotic Charge after the buff.

http://social.biowar...4143/2#13771903

lol Heavy melee DR INSANELY useful on Platinum??? Vanguards can do what they do but others do it better?

Maybe there is a reason you feel the way you do.

I find it hard to believe any other class can do what an Asari Vanguard can do for example. Insane crowd control. Insane splash damage. Insane Boss control (staggers EVERY boss).  But you know maybe you need to spend some more time on your vanguards instead of calling other ppl you have never played with bad...

[FullMetalArthur]

I believe you're right. I have a friend who plays the cerberus vanguard as an adept.

If each class is an specialist on certain enemies, moping trash troops it's a ridicule role. I can kill an unshielded enemy with a few shots or with a simple area-pull. Don't need to be avanguard for that.

[Moxy_Pirate]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
I can't disagree with you more. First of all, Biotic Charge is not just a way to stagger an enemy, but it is also a shield regen tool. Being able to charge you shields back to 100% is pretty amazing. ALL the vanguards can deal a ton of splash damage (their strength) making them amazing against crowds. The fact that you think a Shadow is "the best" Vanguard tells me you have never been in a match with a good vanguard.

The only thing that I think all vanguards should be able to do is create their own Biotic Explosions. But honestly, I think for the most part Vanguards are really close to being fine. Fix the Vanguard glitch so that I dont HAVE to host and I am a happy camper.

Read the thread.  I play Vanguard nearly exclusively, though that may change following the shadow's introduction.

Incidentally, I said the shadow is the best at doing what a vanguard does next to the kroguard.  As for the rest of your generalizations, they've all been addressed multiple times previously in the thread and no one has yet provided a satisfactory demonstration of how vanguards are as effective on platinum as any of the other classes without resorting to specific team compositions to aid them.

So, yeah... read the thread, then comment.  BC's shield restore is nowhere near as good as people make it sound when it comes to platinum games.  The risk of BC still far outweighs the reward because of the way vanguards are modelled.  Kroguard is the exception to the rule.

Dude you are out of your mind. First of all I run my Asari Vanguard mostly but play all vanguards a lot. Easily my favorite class. That said, Asari's have the most survivability because of her crowd control and asari dodge. She also does the most damage and has the most versatility because of he set of abilities. FYI I run around platinum matches like I do on gold. Seriously man, you just need to play your vanguards more. BC is amazing.

[MP-Ryan]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

Misinformation. All Vanguards except the Krogan have the same force and damage on Biotic Charge after the buff.

http://social.biowar...4143/2#13771903

lol Heavy melee DR INSANELY useful on Platinum??? Vanguards can do what they do but others do it better?

Maybe there is a reason you feel the way you do.

I find it hard to believe any other class can do what an Asari Vanguard can do for example. Insane crowd control. Insane splash damage. Insane Boss control (staggers EVERY boss).  But you know maybe you need to spend some more time on your vanguards instead of calling other ppl you have never played with bad...

No, they don't.  Run the math.  It's been done in this thread by Gamemako and Achire.  The nova and drell vanguards have insufficient force to stagger phantoms on gold and platinum without the run-up from power synergy.  Their force maxes at 990N.  1000N is required to stagger phantoms.

Oh, and I edited in the splash damage after you responded so you should read it here:

As for the "ton of splash damage," radius-specced charge deals 660
damage on a novaguard.  That ramps up with synergy, but not all that
much.  Shadow strike, which can be used while you're INVISIBLE, does
1200 without the bonus from TC.  What's funny is that radius carnage,
one of the worst powers in the game, does 595 damage.  So what was that
about BC doing a ton of splash damage?  It does a minor stagger, at
best, with some collateral damage.  To be clear, a Talon X, the ideal
vanguard weapon, does over 700 damage in one shot.

Of course, if you'd bother to read this actual discussion thread before posting nonsense you'd already know all of this.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[Pedro Costa]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
Misinformation. All Vanguards except the Krogan have the same force and damage on Biotic Charge after the buff.

http://social.biowar...4143/2#13771903

Damage and force boosts from passive skill trees aren't.
But hey, that link you gave?
Try using it.

Maybe there is a reason you feel the way you do.

Yeah, he plays the game.

I find it hard to believe any other class can do what an Asari Vanguard can do for example. Insane crowd control. Insane splash damage. Insane Boss control (staggers EVERY boss).  But you know maybe you need to spend some more time on your vanguards instead of calling other ppl you have never played with bad...

Oh, you mean the adept with grenades whose Charge is more of a shield-recharge defensive power than the agressive in your face playstyle vanguards are known for?
Also, GI and MQI of the top of my head.

[TehMerc]

I'm still amazed you get a couple oddballs running into here and telling everyone else how to play rather than read the damned discussion.

We're just bad guys! Teach us how to play, oh mighty Moxy!

[megawug]

IMHO, I don't see BW buffing vanguards any further, except for a slight buff to the drellguard to level the playing field, so-to-speak.

As it is, vanguards are already unstoppable in silver. Add something like stagger immunity, and people will start complaining how overpowered vanguards are. I'd rather not go through another "buff it, then nerf it!" cycle.

[MP-Ryan]

megawug wrote...

IMHO, I don't see BW buffing vanguards any further, except for a slight buff to the drellguard to level the playing field, so-to-speak.

As it is, vanguards are already unstoppable in silver. Add something like stagger immunity, and people will start complaining how overpowered vanguards are. I'd rather not go through another "buff it, then nerf it!" cycle.

Agreed, but stagger immunity won't break silver but it'll make a world of difference in gold/platinum.