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[justjack452]

Go Kroguard and all your problems are solved.

[justjack452]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

The only vanguard that needs stagger immunity is the Battlemaster. The rest are fine. Oboist vanguard on platinum (PS3) and have no issues what so ever. I also lead on score as well. Of you take the time to learn when you can charge, etc., you can perform very strongly with a Vanguard.

Novaguard solo platinum vid when, then?
And, I appologise for what I'm about to say beforehand, but most of the times someone says "l2p", usually that person is either trying to troll, never took all their vanguards above Silver or only played with actual teammates who primed their targets.

And only the Kroguard needs stagger immunity? Seriously? The character with the most damage-dealing Charge, a melee that hurts like a truck, 50% base encumbrance and 1000/1000 base health/barrier is the one that needs stagger immunity?

He's a Krogan of course he needs all of that. Kroguard is the biggest guy out there. I've been wrecking with him, so glad he got buffed.

[Pedro Costa]

megawug wrote...
As it is, vanguards are already unstoppable in silver. Add something like stagger immunity, and people will start complaining how overpowered vanguards are. I'd rather not go through another "buff it, then nerf it!" cycle.

Not really, not in my opinion.
Any average vanguard player solos silver without a sweat, pre-buff, post-buff, it doesn't matter. Silver's a joke, period.
But, when that average vanguard player gets to gold? More often than not, gets their ass handed to them in such a way that they get so disheartened and frustrated that they return to silver matches, sure, it's not challenging, but at least it's not frustrating.

Give vanguards something to diminish the frustration, and I'm fairly sure most Silver vanguards would migrate to Gold, rendering the problem of claiming them OP for that difficulty inert.
Case in point - why aren't geth infiltrators considered OP for Silver?
Because the decent ones are all on Gold, while those who can't use the class to its full extent stick to Silver, and since the class isn't being properly used in Silver lobbies, it isn't OP for the difficulty.
I believe that things have a way to balance themselves if you give a nudge in the right direction.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 03 septembre 2012 - 09:29 .

[Moxy_Pirate]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
Misinformation. All Vanguards except the Krogan have the same force and damage on Biotic Charge after the buff.

http://social.biowar...4143/2#13771903

Damage and force boosts from passive skill trees aren't.
But hey, that link you gave?
Try using it.

Maybe there is a reason you feel the way you do.

Yeah, he plays the game.

I find it hard to believe any other class can do what an Asari Vanguard can do for example. Insane crowd control. Insane splash damage. Insane Boss control (staggers EVERY boss).  But you know maybe you need to spend some more time on your vanguards instead of calling other ppl you have never played with bad...

Oh, you mean the adept with grenades whose Charge is more of a shield-recharge defensive power than the agressive in your face playstyle vanguards are known for?
Also, GI and MQI of the top of my head.

Dude no one is going to take you seriously when you are blatantly wrong. You profess to be SO familiar with Vanguards yet you can't even parse a buff. Yes the recent buff made all vanguards Biotic charge the same except for the Battlemaster (which is stronger). The passives are exactly the same for them as well. Why dont you get on to the game and take a look for yourself so that you feel butt hurt that you are running your mouth off to me like I'm the one having problems...

Secondly. The Asari vanguard plays just as aggressive as any of the other vanguards. WHAT are you smoking? She has the same HP and Shields as the Human Vanguards. The only vanguards with different hp and shields are the Drell and Krogan. The only Vanguard that you have to baby is the Drell...

The Geth infiltrator doesnt play like or fill the role of an Asari Vanguard and neither does a MQI. For one Lift grenades > than Prox Mine or Arc Grenades. Secondly, she can create her own Biotic Explosions adding to her splash damage, all while being amazing at crowd control with stasis, lift, and biotic charge.

Finally, I still don't see a compelling reason for any vanguard but the Krogan to be stagger immune. If you charge an enemy that can stagger, then finish your biotic charges with side or reverse dodge. IF you are getting staggered by multiple enemies, then it sounds like you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, or failed to react quickly enough with your abilities.

PLEASE explain it to me like I'm five how this isn't a skill issue so I can understand.

[TehMerc]

megawug wrote...

IMHO, I don't see BW buffing vanguards any further, except for a slight buff to the drellguard to level the playing field, so-to-speak.

As it is, vanguards are already unstoppable in silver. Add something like stagger immunity, and people will start complaining how overpowered vanguards are. I'd rather not go through another "buff it, then nerf it!" cycle.

If they really balance around silver as much as they like to say in regards to vanguards than they missed the mark on a lot of classes.

Grab a Human Soldier and a Claymore and run around on silver without any equipment and it's a joke.  Any infiltrator makes quick work of silver, to not even say anything of GI's damage capabilities.

The point is other classes perform even better with less risk and a much lower skill floor. Saying silver would become unbalanced is a cop out, it already is.

[Beerfish]

Vanguards are great, the ones who know how to play them are exceptional. It is very tough to play with more than one of them on your team though,

[MP-Ryan]

Moxy - you keep saying all the vanguards have the same charge but you are incorrect. If you'd like to mosy on over to Narida's class builder you can see this yourself without looking at the game. Or you could look at the game. The human vanguards and the drell have 990N force with radius charge - it doesn't matter what other picks you make, the maximum is 990N. That means that in order to stagger enemies such as Phantoms you are required to hit multiple targets to build up power synergy and raise the force of the impact. This has been stated and restated since the buff and you clearly don't want to listen, so go open the game and actually look at the numbers. The max force of biotic charge on the Drell and Humans is 990 N with radius.

Furthermore, this thread is about all Vanguards (well, to a lesser extent the Krogan). If you're fine playing your AV as a slightly-less-effective adept, more power to you. However, none of what you've said has actually illustrated that all the other posters in this thread, the vast majority of whom play a variety of Vanguards, are wrong.

I also notice that you didn't actually respond to the real damage numbers associated with biotic charge...

If you can't be bothered to actually read the thread and participate in the discussion beyond making generalizations which have already been refuted over and over, I really don't know why the hell you're bothering to post here other than to display your ignorance on the subject.  Please - READ THE THREAD.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 03 septembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[TehMerc]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
Dude no one is going to take you seriously when you are blatantly wrong. You profess to be SO familiar with Vanguards yet you can't even parse a buff. Yes the recent buff made all vanguards Biotic charge the same except for the Battlemaster (which is stronger). The passives are exactly the same for them as well. Why dont you get on to the game and take a look for yourself so that you feel butt hurt that you are running your mouth off to me like I'm the one having problems...

No, the passives aren't the same.

Asari:
http://narida.pytalh...0@0@A@@@0@0@0@0

Human:
narida.pytalhost.com/me3/classes/#50PAAPA@0@0@A@@@0@0@0@0

Incase you can't read: 1050N with full power damage and force passives with Asari vs 990 with full power and damage passive with Human.

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
Secondly. The Asari vanguard plays just as aggressive as any of the other vanguards. WHAT are you smoking? She has the same HP and Shields as the Human Vanguards. The only vanguards with different hp and shields are the Drell and Krogan. The only Vanguard that you have to baby is the Drell...

Throwing grenades and stasis are the mainpoints of Asari Vanguards. You can certainly try to charge in more often but you're really missing the point of the class at that point. Charge is typically a defensive tool for the class.

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
The Geth infiltrator doesnt play like or fill the role of an Asari Vanguard and neither does a MQI. For one Lift grenades > than Prox Mine or Arc Grenades. Secondly, she can create her own Biotic Explosions adding to her splash damage, all while being amazing at crowd control with stasis, lift, and biotic charge.

Proximity Mine will easily outdo Lift Grenades in conjunction with Tactical Cloak and a Piranha on a Geth Infiltrator.

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
PLEASE explain it to me like I'm five

I think people are ready to treat you like this too.

[Pedro Costa]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
Dude no one is going to take you seriously when you are blatantly wrong.

Quite true, quite true indeed.
Which is why we are trying to correct you so we can have a discussion, but hey, if you prefer to live in la-la land and be condescending to people who are clearly more familiar with vanguards than you yourself are, be my guest.

You profess to be SO familiar with Vanguards yet you can't even parse a buff. Yes the recent buff made all vanguards Biotic charge the same except for the Battlemaster (which is stronger). The passives are exactly the same for them as well. Why dont you get on to the game and take a look for yourself so that you feel butt hurt that you are running your mouth off to me like I'm the one having problems...

Biotic Charge was ALWAYS the same for every non-krogan vanguard. What differenciates the drell and human from the rest is the buffs Charge receives from the characters passive skill tree. Try to area-stagger a phantom on gold without investing anything on the passives.

If anything, you're the one who's showing complete ignorance towards non-asari/krogan vanguards. But hey, the more power to you. Seriously, must be nice to think you're right all the time when you really aren't.

Secondly. The Asari vanguard plays just as aggressive as any of the other vanguards. WHAT are you smoking? She has the same HP and Shields as the Human Vanguards. The only vanguards with different hp and shields are the Drell and Krogan. The only Vanguard that you have to baby is the Drell...

She can, didn't say otherwise, but she isn't geared towards it.
Stasis and Lift grenades are mid-to-long range powers, Charge takes a backseat as an escape route, shield replenisher power.

The Geth infiltrator doesnt play like or fill the role of an Asari Vanguard and neither does a MQI. For one Lift grenades > than Prox Mine or Arc Grenades. Secondly, she can create her own Biotic Explosions adding to her splash damage, all while being amazing at crowd control with stasis, lift, and biotic charge.

Yeah... whatever you're smoking? I want it.
TC -> Proxy Mine -> Piranha
Arc 'nade.
If you think Lift Grenades > either of those, you're the delusional one.

then finish your biotic charges with side or reverse dodge. IF you are getting staggered by multiple enemies, then it sounds like you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, or failed to react quickly enough with your abilities.

Good luck having time for that most of the time.

PLEASE explain it to me like I'm five how this isn't a skill issue so I can understand.

Already tried to explain, you resorted to condescending remarks and insults like a five year old so now I'm just treating you like you are five.

[Quething]

justjack452 wrote...

Go Kroguard and all your problems are solved.

Except for the problem that kroguard is the only Plat-viable vanguard, of course...

I think universal stagger immunity for the class is probably asking too much. Frontal stagger immunity while under the effect of the post-Charge glow would be fair, though, and a good alternative to raising the DR if they really think that's somehow too strong a buff for Silver (but gethfiltrator's not, right?).

Of course, if you needed to Charge every five seconds to maintain power/weapon damage, DR, and stagger immunity - if Charge is the single thing that holds the entire class together - you're basically saying that yes, Charge is in fact meant to and required to be used basically every cooldown, and Shockwave and Pull are basically there to save you points for Fitness. I think that bridge is already crossed, burned, floated down the river and turned to silt under a kelp forest somewhere but who knows, maybe the dev team has a different concept.

Oh, and once again, I gotta say how impressed I am with how polite everyone is being 

[Moxy_Pirate]

Ok, so I can see that I was wrong about human vanguards and their passives but it doesn't change the reality that they can stagger phantoms. It takes 700N to stagger a phantom in gold, 1000N to knock-back.

TehMerc wrote...
Throwing grenades and stasis are the mainpoints of Asari Vanguards. You can certainly try to charge in more often but you're really missing the point of the class at that point. Charge is typically a defensive tool for the class.

Wait what. Are you saying that for some reason AV play less aggressive cos they have grenades? How does that even make sense? AV is amazing at CQC with Stasis and the fact that Biotic Charge Buffs your grenades...

TehMerc wrote...


Proximity Mine will easily outdo Lift Grenades in conjunction with Tactical Cloak and a Piranha on a Geth Infiltrator.

No, just no, WITH Tactical Cloak they do 1728 damage in a 3m radius. With Biotic Charge Lift grenades 2361 damage to a 6.5 m radius and you can dump your entire supply within that 10 second window...

Now I apologize if I sound rude but aside from missing the passives which isn't even the point of my posts, I just don't see why vanguards need stagger resistance. Is there something I'm missing? You can follow all your Biotic Charges with dodges. What am I missing here?

Modifié par Moxy_Pirate, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:06 .

[MP-Ryan]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

Ok, so I can see that I was wrong about human vanguards and their passives but it doesn't change the reality that they can stagger phantoms. It takes 700N to stagger a phantom in gold, 1000N to knock-back.

Oh FFS, read the balance changes from the other week - Phantom stagger = 1000 N period.

[Quething]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

TC -> Proxy Mine -> Piranha
Arc 'nade.
If you think Lift Grenades > either of those, you're the delusional one.

Hell, MQE has the edge on asariguard. Tac scan to increase power damage can be done from cover and lasts longer than Power Synergy (and adds to tech burst damage too, while Charge synergy does nothing for bluesplosions), the Arc nade DoT primes every enemy while Stasis only works on about half, and both Arc Nades and Inferno do limitless target AoE damage for multiple simultaneous tech bursts while the most you'll ever practically manage to prime with a Stasis is two. And that fire DoT you get when you trigger your Arc tech burst can then be detonated by another Arc for a fire explosion, which is splash damage the Asariguard can't even dream of.

Modifié par Quething, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[Pedro Costa]

Quething wrote...
I think universal stagger immunity for the class is probably asking too much. Frontal stagger immunity while under the effect of the post-Charge glow would be fair, though, and a good alternative to raising the DR if they really think that's somehow too strong a buff for Silver

 
Oh crap, didn't realise this, but I hope BioWare didn't think we wanted permanent stagger immunity/DR for our vanguards, I always meant it for immediately after Charge.

(but gethfiltrator's not, right?).

Any infiltrator, really. And the HSol, and the Destroyer, and a few more...

Of course, if you needed to Charge every five seconds to maintain power/weapon damage, DR, and stagger immunity - if Charge is the single thing that holds the entire class together - you're basically saying that yes, Charge is in fact meant to and required to be used basically every cooldown, and Shockwave and Pull are basically there to save you points for Fitness. I think that bridge is already crossed, burned, floated down the river and turned to silt under a kelp forest somewhere but who knows, maybe the dev team has a different concept.

Which is why I think Charge's evo 6a should be to put the power on a separate cooldown cycle.
Not that I'm complaining about the buffs we already got, I thank BW for them immensely, but if BW really wants people to consider anything other than full barrier restoration on anything that isn't the kroguard, it has to be something very appealing.

[Guiile_Sheppard]

BIOWARE CANT FIX THE GLICTH SOO THIS CLAN IS BUGGED / BROKENNED

[megawug]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Not really, not in my opinion.
Any average vanguard player solos silver without a sweat, pre-buff, post-buff, it doesn't matter. Silver's a joke, period.
But, when that average vanguard player gets to gold? More often than not, gets their ass handed to them in such a way that they get so disheartened and frustrated that they return to silver matches, sure, it's not challenging, but at least it's not frustrating.

Give vanguards something to diminish the frustration, and I'm fairly sure most Silver vanguards would migrate to Gold, rendering the problem of claiming them OP for that difficulty inert.
Case in point - why aren't geth infiltrators considered OP for Silver?
Because the decent ones are all on Gold, while those who can't use the class to its full extent stick to Silver, and since the class isn't being properly used in Silver lobbies, it isn't OP for the difficulty.
I believe that things have a way to balance themselves if you give a nudge in the right direction.

Hmmm... one thing I don't quite understand is what the problem is on gold?  I understand the drellguard's problem of 990N, and kroguard having no problems on the other end of the spectrum.

I play AV on gold quite a bit.  Can get in trouble when dealing with more than one Geth Prime, but charging isn't _that_ risky.  She can reliably stagger phantoms and most everything else.

Now platinum is a big problem.  Most bosses don't stagger reliably, so it's near suicidal.

[Pedro Costa]

Slayer, Krogan, Phoenix and Asari all can stagger gold phantoms, even with area charge.
Novaguards and Drellguards can't.

And stagger is an issue that affects a lot of vanguard players which gets them killed much more often than even sync kills, not to mention that Platinum is vanguard hell, but since I've only tried it three times, I usually avoid giving my opinions on it.

[Quething]

megawug wrote...

Hmmm... one thing I don't quite understand is what the problem is on gold?  I understand the drellguard's problem of 990N, and kroguard having no problems on the other end of the spectrum.

I play AV on gold quite a bit.  Can get in trouble when dealing with more than one Geth Prime, but charging isn't _that_ risky.  She can reliably stagger phantoms and most everything else.

In my experience it's basically a tradeoff thing.

You can play like you were on Silver, and throw yourself into the fray, charging constantly, getting right up in a Banshee's face to get her on the edge of your Nova or hit her with all four of your Cluster shrapnel, storm into a crowd of four Phantoms to hit them and beat on them and keep them all under control and off your teammates... and die, constantly.

Or you can play more conservatively, pick your targets, focus on stragglers, avoid groups of two or more bosses, only hit a group when you can set off a BE... and do absolutely pathetic damage and take ten years to kill anything.

True story: I was playing pre-buff novaguard on Gold a while ago with a buddy of mine. He was rolling huSent and priming for me, so I didn't bother with disruptor ammo like I normally would, and just rolled with an empty gun. I was packing an Eviscerator at the time, which is ~theoretically~ an Ideal Vanguard Weapon, a light caster shotgun that still packs a decent punch. We U/U/Ged into Condor Reapers.

At the end of round nine, I was last man standing. I ran around the map clearing out marauders and brutes and then turned my attention to the sole remaining enemy, a banshee.

I could not kill her.

I spent five minutes - twenty-five percent of the length of a normal Gold game - kiting her around the map. Nova with pierce and a naked Eviscerator X were all I could use to damage her; it wasn't safe to Charge for power synergy to buff my Nova, and I couldn't set off tech bursts because I had no ammo. Every now and then she'd land a Warp and I'd have to either risk a charge, blow an Ops pack, or duck into cover, because of course I had no barrier up because I kept spending it on Nova. And everytime I did duck away for safety, her barrier came back. I literally could not damage her faster than she could heal herself. I had to Cobra her. A single banshee.

I take any engineer, my human soldier, my human sentinal, my drell adept to Gold, with no gear, no ammo powers, substandard weapons like the Eagle or GPS (or Evi again, my huSoldier also uses it), and I laugh at a single banshee. I'm not even talking infiltrators or N7 classes or Rare guns here.

The stagger issue is basically that if I charge four phantoms, one will fail to stagger regardless, and she will melee me, and it will stagger me, and I will die. If my engineer drops a drone on four phantoms, they'll all stare at it fascinated while she shocks them to death safely from a distance. If my drell adept drops a Reave + cluster on four phantoms, he gets a killstreak. The only way to kill four phantoms as a vanguard is to run away and wait for them to be one or two phantoms on either side of the map.

Tl;dr: you can stay alive pretty easily and not do much, or you can try to contribute equally and die a bunch for it. Had I repeatedly charged that Banshee for synergy I could probably have worn her down over time, but odds are damn good she'd have instagibbed me for it and ended the round for all of us.

Modifié par Quething, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[Pedro Costa]

^ what Quething wrote, too.

[Moxy_Pirate]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

Ok, so I can see that I was wrong about human vanguards and their passives but it doesn't change the reality that they can stagger phantoms. It takes 700N to stagger a phantom in gold, 1000N to knock-back.

Oh FFS, read the balance changes from the other week - Phantom stagger = 1000 N period.

So hostile! I'm trying to help. First of all the balance changes reduced the PLATINUM force needed to stagger a phantom to be the same as Gold.

Here is a list of values that you will find useful: http://pastebin.com/wXKyLYQJ

Decided to post a pic of me just now doing a gold run with a UUG pug with a lvl 14 vanguard, full extraction (shows 16 because I got two levels after completeing the game). We DID NOT camp. We ran around and had a blast.

[Pedro Costa]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
So hostile! I'm trying to help.

Pot, meet kettle.

First of all the balance changes reduced the PLATINUM force needed to stagger a phantom to be the same as Gold.

Which is 1000N for the phantom to take a few steps back or just act stunned/paralyzed

Here is a list of values that you will find useful: http://pastebin.com/wXKyLYQJ

http://social.biowar.../index/13587937 

Decided to post a pic of me just now doing a gold run with a UUG pug with a lvl 14 vanguard, full extraction (shows 16 because I got two levels after completeing the game). We DID NOT camp. We ran around and had a blast.

Not that I'm not happy for you, but... what relevance does this have?

[megawug]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Slayer, Krogan, Phoenix and Asari all can stagger gold phantoms, even with area charge.
Novaguards and Drellguards can't.

And stagger is an issue that affects a lot of vanguard players which gets them killed much more often than even sync kills, not to mention that Platinum is vanguard hell, but since I've only tried it three times, I usually avoid giving my opinions on it.

I personally haven't encountered any serious stagger problems on gold.  But I usually hit targets with disruptor ammo before charging, which makes it safer and provides an extra punch with tech bursts.

Of course, still not effective on platinum, but I'm not sure stagger immunity is really the fix for that.

[Pedro Costa]

megawug wrote...
Of course, still not effective on platinum, but I'm not sure stagger immunity is really the fix for that.

Would be a step in the right direction, imho =P

[Moxy_Pirate]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
So hostile! I'm trying to help.

Pot, meet kettle.

First of all the balance changes reduced the PLATINUM force needed to stagger a phantom to be the same as Gold.

Which is 1000N for the phantom to take a few steps back or just act stunned/paralyzed

Here is a list of values that you will find useful: http://pastebin.com/wXKyLYQJ

http://social.biowar.../index/13587937 

Decided to post a pic of me just now doing a gold run with a UUG pug with a lvl 14 vanguard, full extraction (shows 16 because I got two levels after completeing the game). We DID NOT camp. We ran around and had a blast.

Not that I'm not happy for you, but... what relevance does this have?

First of all we are BOTH quoting two different sources that aren't bioware. If my information is incorrect then I apologize. When I level my vanguard up to 20, I'll see whats up with the novaguard , but I played platinum all this weekend and had no problem with staggers on my Asari Vanguard and I don't ever recall it being an issue on my other vanguards either.

Secondly, I posted a pic of me playing gold on a lvl 14 vanguard so that you could see im not just blowing smoke. You hinted that I was probably terrible at playing the class. I play vanguards a whole lot and I honestly have a different opinion on them as a whole than you and am just providing my perspective.  The only times I have problems with staggers is when I play the Battlemaster.  I think Batarians and Krogans should ALL have stagger resistance.

If I were going to buff Vanguards, I'd make them all have a chance to create a BE some how. It's fun using charge as a detonator. I really don't see what's hard about using dodge to avoid staggers.

[Moxy_Pirate]

megawug wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Slayer, Krogan, Phoenix and Asari all can stagger gold phantoms, even with area charge.
Novaguards and Drellguards can't.

And stagger is an issue that affects a lot of vanguard players which gets them killed much more often than even sync kills, not to mention that Platinum is vanguard hell, but since I've only tried it three times, I usually avoid giving my opinions on it.

I personally haven't encountered any serious stagger problems on gold.  But I usually hit targets with disruptor ammo before charging, which makes it safer and provides an extra punch with tech bursts.

Of course, still not effective on platinum, but I'm not sure stagger immunity is really the fix for that.

I LOVE disrupter ammo, It's great for control and the tech bursts are nice too. I use it a lot.