851 réponses à ce sujet

[thegamefreek78648]

Agreed. Love cryo ammo for similar reasons

[Pedro Costa]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
First of all we are BOTH quoting two different sources that aren't bioware.

True, but I'm quoting tests done one week before the platinum phantom changes, with hard numbers that can easily be verified.

When I level my vanguard up to 20, I'll see whats up with the novaguard , but I played platinum all this weekend and had no problem with staggers on my Asari Vanguard and I don't ever recall it being an issue on my other vanguards either.

That's because every vanguard except the drell and the base human have a passive power/weapon tree that gives them 1050N force with area charge while those two can only go to 990N.

Secondly, I posted a pic of me playing gold on a lvl 14 vanguard so that you could see im not just blowing smoke. You hinted that I was probably terrible at playing the class.

I did say it was my impression from previous posters who resorted to the "l2p" card and apologised beforehand if that were not the case. Your open aggressiveness didn't help your case either.

I play vanguards a whole lot and I honestly have a different opinion on them as a whole than you and am just providing my perspective.

 
And that's good. We're all here to share ideas and opinions.
What we're not here to do is listen to someone say "l2p", step onto their high horse, proclaim data that is wrong as factually correct and being condescending to others on top of all that.

The only times I have problems with staggers is when I play the Battlemaster.  I think Batarians and Krogans should ALL have stagger resistance.

I don't understand how you can have problems with stagger using a kroguard, to be honest.
Its Charge has the most force, its health and protection are through the roof, slap barrier and a cyclonic and they're the closest you can get to invulnerable.
The batarians I can understand, tho.

...See, was it that hard to be so receptive to dialogue instead of being openly condescending?

I really don't see what's hard about using dodge to avoid staggers.

Swarmed by three guys usually doesn't leave a lot of room to dodge when you can't stagger them.

[Moxy_Pirate]

2be fair you are here posting that you think Battlemaster is the best vanguard. Well that's your opinion. And also I am talking about stagger immunity. Where did I say that i had problems staggering WITH the krogan???? Getting swarmed by 3 guys IS a L2P issue. If you didn't notice 3 characters surrounding you? Or you charge into the center of 3 characters and you CANT stagger THEM, then why did you charge???

Modifié par Moxy_Pirate, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:58 .

[Pedro Costa]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

2be fair you are here posting that you think Battlemaster is the best vanguard. Well that's your opinion.

It isn't an opinion, it is a fact.

And also I am talking about stagger immunity.

...which he has.
And I know you are, and that's what I replied towards.

Where did I say that i had problems staggering WITH the krogan????

If you stagger with the krogan, you don't get staggered back. You use this very argument in your next sentence!

Getting swarmed by 3 guys IS a L2P issue. If you didn't notice 3 characters surrounding you? Or you charge into the center of 3 characters and you CANT stagger THEM, then why did you charge???

Because you stagger them, they snap out of it and screw you over because you have crap shields.

And there are times where if you don't charge at something, somewhere, you're dead.
Not every vanguard has the CC abilities/effective combat range the asari gets.

[Moxy_Pirate]

Cool Dark. You keep asking for your stagger immunity buff, and I'll just keep having a blast playing platinum. Saying that stagger immunity is being able to stagger is pretty dumb. First of all Battlemasters have a huge disadvantage when charging bosses. That's not even arguable. Its the truth. Thats where they could use stagger immunity.

Again, I'm trying to understand why you believe its ok to stagger three enemies that can stagger you if you cant handle the group. How is that not a L2P issue? And by the way, all the other Vanguards can just dodge back in that situation and not get staggered. Again how is this not a L2P issue. I mean I guess you feel that Biotic Charge should be usuable non stop in all situations. I guess thats a design issue. But I dont think vanguards need stagger immunity outside of the battlemaster. We'll have to agree to disagree.

And the Battlemaster is not the best vanguard. But I'll let you keep your opinion.

[TehMerc]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
And the Battlemaster is not the best vanguard. But I'll let you keep your opinion.

It's cute you think you're letting anyone keep their opinion.

I'm really not sure why they're still bothering with you though, more patience than I have.

[Moxy_Pirate]

TehMerc wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...
And the Battlemaster is not the best vanguard. But I'll let you keep your opinion.

It's cute you think you're letting anyone keep their opinion.

I'm really not sure why they're still bothering with you though, more patience than I have.

What i think is funny is that you guys seem to think your majority means I'm wrong.

How is the Krogan Battlemaster the "best"? Because of his hitpoints? If that's the case then you guys need to practice playing the other vanguards more and getting the hang of dodge and the best time to charge. Personally I think the Asari is the most well rounded and can deal the most splash damage in a variety of situations.

All I am seeing is a bunch of people asking for stagger immunity for situations that they really shouldnt be in. :-/

[TehMerc]

I'm not really going to bother explaining things to someone who reads things so selectively. And I hope no one else does either.

[MP-Ryan]

Yeah, I'm done trying to explain the game mechanics, it's becoming totally pointless. Where's gamemako when we need him...

[Destructo-Bot]

Moxy, realize that this thread is about most of the Vanguard races being unable to compete with the other classes in utility. In short, a soldier or adept is a better choice than a vanguard going by the numbers. Those two classes get the same benefits of the vanguard without the need to be in the enemies face constantly. This thread was about bringing most Vanguards in line with the utility other classes enjoy. Stagger immunity and a higher power force were the general consensus for making them a class all their own, rather than a poor adept/soldier hybrid.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 04 septembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[thegamefreek78648]

By the way, do any of you know what (or how many what's) cause the glitch that keeps you from charging even when you are host?

[Pedro Costa]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Yeah, I'm done trying to explain the game mechanics, it's becoming totally pointless. Where's gamemako when we need him...

My thoughts exactly.

And I'm feeling like getting a Slayer discussion going, we talked about Novaguards long enough, even if they are my favourite kit, more nova damage & force, more 10N to area charge, frontal stagger immunity for 4 secs after charge (like with all vanguards), call it a day, next vanguard please.

So, I love the bugger, it has some of the most awesome animations the ME team has given us and his freaking katana yells "uuuuuuuuuse meeeeee!". Sadly, I think he has too weak of a light melee.
For me, the biggest shortcoming of the kit is not rewarding you highly enough for unsheathing your katana and slicing stuff up close and personal.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 04 septembre 2012 - 03:46 .

[Pedro Costa]

thegamefreek78648 wrote...

By the way, do any of you know what (or how many what's) cause the glitch that keeps you from charging even when you are host?

http://social.biowar...107/27#13846351 
This is the closest I've found to answer your enquiry =P

[TehMerc]

thegamefreek78648 wrote...

By the way, do any of you know what (or how many what's) cause the glitch that keeps you from charging even when you are host?

From what I can tell, whenever a mob becomes unchargable when they shouldn't be, it's because they've got some action going that they're performing above all else. If you get a shot off that get's their attention and makes them stop moving toward whatever they're hell bent on or stagger them they typically become chargable again but it's not always 100%.

[MP-Ryan]

thegamefreek78648 wrote...

By the way, do any of you know what (or how many what's) cause the glitch that keeps you from charging even when you are host?

http://social.biowar...107/27#13846351

Try this post.  Several pages back in this thread.  Not comprehensive, but a good starting point.

EDIT:  Ninja'd tomy own post.  Heh.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 04 septembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[Moxy_Pirate]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Moxy, realize that this thread is about most of the Vanguard races being unable to compete with the other classes in utility. In short, a soldier or adept is a better choice than a vanguard going by the numbers. Those two classes get the same benefits of the vanguard without the need to be in the enemies face constantly. This thread was about bringing most Vanguards in line with the utility other classes enjoy. Stagger immunity and a higher power force were the general consensus for making them a class all their own,rather than a poor adept/soldier hybrid.

Ok and I can see that in some ways but I just don't know if stagger immunity fixes that. For example, Biotic Charge, yes its pretty dumb that a human vanguard has to double charge for a stagger. Should it be buffed: yes. I thought that is what the recent buff did and I was mistaken. but is this keeping human Vanguards from playing like a Vanguard??? I literally just finished a gold match with my Vanguard and had no issues and topped the score.  I also play very aggressive in platinum on my Asari and am 1 or 2 in score and have a lot of utility.

IMO some of the vanguards could use health or shields and maybe a dps boost with b.e.s or something.

[Destructo-Bot]

I generally top the scoreboards as well, but that doesn't mean the class is fine. Vanguards typically want to operate in melee range. This is a problem because:

1.) Their health/shields (save the Krogan) are not any more impressive than a lightly armored adept. The damage reduction they get isn't particularly impressive either (again, save the Krogan).

2.) Get Stagger locked out of a charge and you're dead. This makes dealing with the buffed geth a nightmare since most things stagger you with them. Vanguards operate out of cover, but this is deadly against the geth.

3.) Get shot out of a charge and you're down to health-gate before the animation is even done.

4.) Lag affects the vanguard class more than any other class.

5.) Because of #4, we get the "vanguard glitch" making charging when you need it most even more risky.

6.) Except for the Krogan, most vanguard's melees aren't that impressive. A CQC melee-range class doesn't even get a good melee for the most part.

7.) Soldier's can regenerate shields while in cover, and most operate with cover. Vanguards must rely on being out of cover and right next to the enemy to get their barriers restored, yet they don't have the massive Weapon or Power boosts that soldiers, adepts, and infiltrator get despite being right in the thick of things.

Watch this video regarding the issue of "charge being a get-out-of-jail-free card" that is believed by most not familiar with the class. You get your shields back from a charge right? Wrong.


Here's a Novaguard screeny for you, pretty decent right?:




However, as I've stated, Soldier and Adepts (and Sentinel, and Infiltrators, etc!) can do it better. Better clear times, less risk, equal or better score.














And FINALLY, here is the one true vanguard: The kroguard. This is what we think the entire class should be. Rewards commensurate with being constantly in the line of fire. His durability makes up for the lack of weapon bonuses that vanguards enjoy allowing them to equip heavier weapons.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 04 septembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[Lucrece]

disappearingone11 wrote...
Not sure if adding armor damage to BC would be a good idea or not. I think I would lean more towards increasing weapon synergy and dealing damage with heavy weapons, or in the cases of vanguards who have heavy hitting secondary abilities, utilizing those instead. Bosses aren't really designed for charging (at least repeatedly), and that's understandable (though certainly inconvenient for platinum). The problem for most vanguards is that weapon synergy is poor and they're too dependent on cd's to carry heavy weapons, so those without an effective secondary ability can't deal sufficient damage. Something needs to give here.

I think increasing base health and barriers should be done on principle alone because vanguards are not adepts. But, obviously, this would have gameplay implications as well. The question is how much can be given without overpowering the class, and I don't have an answer for that.

Charging bosses is hardly an issue for any Vanguard if you dodge/ Slayer phase backwards out of a charge. For banshees the Slayer can reliably phase back before the charge even ends and the banshee will never get a sync kill.

And even if you want to be safe and de electrify Banshees and shed off barriers from Phantoms, Vanguards already have either a Piranha X or any rank Hurricane to easily shred boss units from range if need be while keeping charge cd low. I just think Charge could afford to pack more punch as a signature ability.

Mind you, I don't think vanguards are alone in class difficulties. The sentinel classes are in the ****ty end of the offensive and survival bandwagon as well. Where sentinels intended to be tanky, they've been completely dethroned by vanguards and particularly infiltrators, while their powers are superfluouf since shedding shields is simple for infiltrators and vanguards, and the sheer damage capacity of other classes far outpaces current sentinel pickings outside a Flamer specced Vorcha sentinel.

Modifié par Lucrece, 04 septembre 2012 - 07:27 .

[Quething]

You realize that you just listed a level X rare weapon that's only been in the game for a month and a promotional with a 20% drop chance every two weeks as justification for the vanguard's weapon design, right?

Sentinels are odd birds. The base human is an adept, the paladin is an engineer, the krogan and vorcha are soldiers and the turian is basically the only one who actually has the traditional tech/biotic debuff/cc combo that defines the class. But all of them are quite good in their roles; base human is competitive with asari adept, Paladin is flat-out boss, vorcha is an unkillable grenade-lobbing slaughterhouse, turian can strip any defense and support any team perfectly. Batarian has always seemed a bit weak to me but I simply don't deal well with classes who don't dodge so I figure that's mostly on my end (and I haven't unlocked him yet on my own account to test him properly anyway). I'm perfectly fine with most of them not being super-tanky (apart from the Paladin) because sentinels are supposed to be master casters, not tanks, and tech armor was one of the stupidest things BioWare added in ME2. Vanguards, on the other hand, are meant to be second only to soldiers (if not more tanky; Wrex was your iconic vanguard in ME1 and he could take a bigger beating than Ashley, which is damn well saying something, because that woman could not die in combat). If they're more durable on average than average sentinels, well, at least they're beating someone at something.

Modifié par Quething, 04 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[Destructo-Bot]

Actually the Asari Justicar Adept is tankier than all the vanguards save the Kroguard. And she gets to detonate her own BEs as well. Reave/Pull, Reave/Bubble, Bubble/Reave, Bubble/Pull. And she gets the best dodge in the game. And a higher base carry weight so she can use heavy weapons without the penalty. Also she can give the DR benefit to teammates, and also give a shield-recharge delay buff as well. Yeesh!

The Infiltrator Shadow can actually teleport to a target, attack, remain cloaked after the fact, and run away. While dealing massive damage and also getting to snipe.

The original Human Soldier actually can regenerate his shields and gets DR (and a free reload!) with the push of a button. The button won't fail to lock on randomly either and he won't be shot the instant he gets his shields back and LOSE THEM ALL IMMEDIATELY because he'll still be in cover, or at least not in spitting distance of the enemy. Better yet, the Destroyer gets higher base shields AND complete stagger immunity with absolutely ridonkulous weapon damage buffs.

Heck certain Engineers, Infiltrators, and Sentinels also get shield restore with a button push and DR in some instances, while damaging the enemies shields/AOE stunning them at the same time. The others get spammable TRUE AOE combination stagger/debuff mines.

Why do we play vanguard again?

edit: I think I meant pull and not throw on the Justicar!

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 04 septembre 2012 - 04:52 .

[Moxy_Pirate]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

I generally top the scoreboards as well, but that doesn't mean the class is fine. Vanguards typically want to operate in melee range. This is a problem because:

1.) Their health/shields (save the Krogan) are not any more impressive than a lightly armored adept. The damage reduction they get isn't particularly impressive either (again, save the Krogan).

They can regenerate shields. I typically play my vanguards with no or 3 points into  fitness. Again I play in enemies faces. My typical weapon of choice is the hurricane, but sometimes I'll rock a shotgun for lolz. The Hurricane packs a heck of a wallop though and allows me to keep my CDs low so that I can charge shields back a lot when dealing with lots of damage.

Destructo-Bot wrote...

2.) Get Stagger locked out of a charge and you're dead. This makes dealing with the buffed geth a nightmare since most things stagger you with them. Vanguards operate out of cover, but this is deadly against the geth.

Now this is the issue I don't really see. You can dodge back with all Vanguards following a charge on bosses to avoid staggers. The geth hunter is the only enemy in the game that can act when staggered and I believe thats a bug. Even with Hunters, you can dodge to avoid "the peoples elbow."

Destructo-Bot wrote...

3.) Get shot out of a charge and you're down to health-gate before the animation is even done.

Well you cant't just charge into the middle of LOTS of gunfire. The guy in the video is taking fire from multiple directions including from a Prime.

Destructo-Bot wrote...

4.) Lag affects the vanguard class more than any other class.

5.) Because of #4, we get the "vanguard glitch" making charging when you need it most even more risky.

True, but BW has stated that they hope to have the vanguard glitch fixed in the next content update (sweet). However, I do believe that hosting will always be the best for vanguards to avoid client host issues/lag.

Destructo-Bot wrote...
6.) Except for the Krogan, most vanguard's melees aren't that impressive. A CQC melee-range class doesn't even get a good melee for the most part.

Well I think that defines the Krogan. The other races' melee hit plenty hard and have their advantages. Infact, the Slayer is better at Melee than the Krogan in my opinion.

Destructo-Bot wrote...

7.) Soldier's can regenerate shields while in cover, and most operate with cover. Vanguards must rely on being out of cover and right next to the enemy to get their barriers restored, yet they don't have the massive Weapon or Power boosts that soldiers, adepts, and infiltrator get despite being right in the thick of things.

Not all soldiers have shield regeneration. Sounds like you are talking about humans. The ability is ok but doesnt really compare to Biotic Charge. It does give them a bit more tankiness allowing them to stand and fight a bit more though. Now here's where I do agree with you. The Asari actually is a standout as far as damage because the power buff is nice for her. Other vanguards can't really take advantage of the Synergy evolution of BC because of A. not having a good enough base carrying capacity to really take advantage of using heavy weapons. Plus the Weapon Synergy is too weak and doesnt last long enough. B. Power Synergy isn't that great unless you have a nice hard hitting ability that you can use in CQC.

Your screenies in my opinon do more to demonstrate that Vanguards are fine (relatively speaking, they do have issues, not saying that they don't) than otherwise. Obviously you are playing with several different teams with diff. skill levels resulting in different scores for you at top and different finish times. Your opinion about the battlemaster is yours. I happen to think that dodge is amazing and that Asari have the best dodge in the game. I can do a lot of things on a Asari Vanguard that you can't on a Battlemaster. I can lead on platinum w/ sub 30 min finish times. I don't think its quite fair to expect that every class be able to have = speed run times. I mean if you like meleeing and sitting in enemy fire a tad longer, then obviously the Battlemaster is for you. Bioware made each class have different races so you could find a playstyle that worked for you within that class. I think some people have an issue with game design and think that it means the entire class is sub par. Sure, it could use a few buffs, but I just honestly dont feel the same way.

Modifié par Moxy_Pirate, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:17 .

[MP-Ryan]

Time for a video of the epic Asari Vanguard platinum play, Moxy. Some of your claims and misconceptions about the way the vanguard class operates are starting to lean from improbable toward the ridiculous end of the scale.

If you haven't run into the "I charged but my shields are still down," the "I charged and they should have staggered but now I can't dodge because I got meleed," or the "I would just be much more effective as an adept or soldier and not this broken hybrid" then you are:
1. Not playing the same game as the rest of us, or
2. Playing with other people who are either picking classes solely to synergize with you, or who aren't very good.

I can double the score of my nearest teammate as a novaguard or kroguard on Gold. On Platinum, a good soldier or adept will nearly always outscore a superb Vanguard.

[Destructo-Bot]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

Well you cant't just charge into the middle of LOTS of gunfire. The guy in the video is taking fire from multiple directions including from a Prime.

You missed the comments apparently:

You'll notice I wait for three things before charging: My
barriers to start recharging, for the Prime to fire it's three pulse
cannon blasts at something else, and for the hunter to get closer to the
teammate I intend to revive.
I was not hit by the Prime's cannon. I was hit by the hunter to my
right as I faced the downed teammate and also by the hunter I had
knocked over with the charge. In a proper world, neither should have
been able to target me; out of LOS of one, other should be stunned.

There were only three enemies close by, and one of them (the prime) was not able to fire again just yet. Regardless, I get shot by a hunter that wouldn't have had line of sight to me before the charge and by a hunter that is currently face down on the ground and these are enough to take to to health-gate then again to death after the second charge. For a CQC class they really should have enough post-charge DR to tank a hit or two.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[Moxy_Pirate]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Time for a video of the epic Asari Vanguard platinum play, Moxy. Some of your claims and misconceptions about the way the vanguard class operates are starting to lean from improbable toward the ridiculous end of the scale.

If you haven't run into the "I charged but my shields are still down," the "I charged and they should have staggered but now I can't dodge because I got meleed," or the "I would just be much more effective as an adept or soldier and not this broken hybrid" then you are:
1. Not playing the same game as the rest of us, or
2. Playing with other people who are either picking classes solely to synergize with you, or who aren't very good.

I can double the score of my nearest teammate as a novaguard or kroguard on Gold. On Platinum, a good soldier or adept will nearly always outscore a superb Vanguard.

I'd hate to turn this into a "so prove it" deal but I'm happy to post some screenies the next time I play platinum. Will be a day or so as I have just promoted my vanguard again. The issue you are speaking of happens because of game mechanics. The AI knows where you are going and will "cheat" by firing at you and hitting you before your animation finishes. It sucks but is part of the game. Geth Hunters are obviously bugged and should be fixed. They should not be shooting (which staggers you) or meleeing (again staggering you) while themselves are staggered. Rocket troopers sometimes shoot rockets while staggered. Really, BW needs to fix Geth for EVERYONE. Also I play on PS3 so the best I can do is maybe recording with my camera.... but it would look like garbage.

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

Well
you cant't just charge into the middle of LOTS of gunfire. The guy in
the video is taking fire from multiple directions including from a
Prime.

You missed the comments apparently:

You'll notice I wait for three things before charging: My
barriers to start recharging, for the Prime to fire it's three pulse
cannon blasts at something else, and for the hunter to get closer to the
teammate I intend to revive.
I was not hit by the Prime's cannon. I was hit by the hunter to my
right as I faced the downed teammate and also by the hunter I had
knocked over with the charge. In a proper world, neither should have
been able to target me; out of LOS of one, other should be stunned.

There
were only three enemies close by, and one of them (the prime) was not
able to fire again just yet. Regardless, I get shot by a hunter that
wouldn't have had line of sight to me before the charge and by a hunter
that is currently face down on the ground and these are enough to take
to to health-gate then again to death after the second charge. For a CQC
class they really should have enough post-charge DR to tank a hit or
two.

No, I didn't read the comments but his explanation points out how broken Geth are, not a problem with Vanguards. Don't really know what to say except that it sucks that he got owned through cover and by a hunter that was face down. IF things were working properly he would have been fine.

Modifié par Moxy_Pirate, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[Destructo-Bot]

Another point brought up was that Vanguards should have very high DR right out of a charge, and if that were the case then then that situation wouldn't have been deadly. What should have been a perfectly reasonable spot to charge into to attempt a revive was not due to the vanguards inherent lack of protections. Exploiting bugs to compensate isn't the way to go. I don't nova-cancel or reload-cancel because I view them as unintended exploits.