851 réponses à ce sujet

[Lucrece]

Quething wrote...

You realize that you just listed a level X rare weapon that's only been in the game for a month and a promotional with a 20% drop chance every two weeks as justification for the vanguard's weapon design, right?

Sentinels are odd birds. The base human is an adept, the paladin is an engineer, the krogan and vorcha are soldiers and the turian is basically the only one who actually has the traditional tech/biotic debuff/cc combo that defines the class. But all of them are quite good in their roles; base human is competitive with asari adept, Paladin is flat-out boss, vorcha is an unkillable grenade-lobbing slaughterhouse, turian can strip any defense and support any team perfectly. Batarian has always seemed a bit weak to me but I simply don't deal well with classes who don't dodge so I figure that's mostly on my end (and I haven't unlocked him yet on my own account to test him properly anyway). I'm perfectly fine with most of them not being super-tanky (apart from the Paladin) because sentinels are supposed to be master casters, not tanks, and tech armor was one of the stupidest things BioWare added in ME2. Vanguards, on the other hand, are meant to be second only to soldiers (if not more tanky; Wrex was your iconic vanguard in ME1 and he could take a bigger beating than Ashley, which is damn well saying something, because that woman could not die in combat). If they're more durable on average than average sentinels, well, at least they're beating someone at something.

Oh, please, maxing the Piranha is easy with PSP spam. Even at lower ranks the Piranha is amazing, and while you don't have either weapon a reegar will do the job of damage in between charge cooldowns and nova/pd spam.

You just have a grass is greener complex. The Paladin sucks. Whoopity****ing doo, I can debuff bosses. Too bad an infiltrator still downs the boss in a fraction of the time, as does a demolisher regardless. Bringing a geth infiltrator will bring more damage to the team than the Paladin's debuff, and Energy Drain does not come close in survivability to charge spam or tactical cloak. When the paladin can stand around a group of phantoms or geth pyros and hunters and aoe them down with stagger spam like my Slayer can with charge and PD spam, call me. Support characters in this game don't matter-- it's damage and cc that rule platinum, arc grenades and the raw damage bonuses of tactical cloak and destroyer mode and biotic explosions. Sentinels neither shine in quickly taking out groups of higher strength units, nor boss units, nor are they able to tank anywhere close to my Slayer's capacity.

Modifié par Lucrece, 04 septembre 2012 - 08:36 .

[Moxy_Pirate]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Another point brought up was that Vanguards should have very high DR right out of a charge, and if that were the case then then that situation wouldn't have been deadly. What should have been a perfectly reasonable spot to charge into to attempt a revive was not due to the vanguards inherent lack of protections. Exploiting bugs to compensate isn't the way to go. I don't nova-cancel or reload-cancel because I view them as unintended exploits.

I just think its important to seperate intended game design from bugs. At the end of the day, certain aspects of the live game will be frustrating to certain classes or races (or both). And its fair to demand changes. Demanding the right ones though is just as important as making a demand at all.

Things I'd like to see.

Weapon Synergy buff to damage and duration.
All Vanguards can create B.E. in some way.
All Vanguards can stagger Phantoms with area evo charge. (not really sure why Novaguards cant...)
Battlemasters get stagger immunity or maybe reduced stagger time.
Base carrying capacity increase.

As far as DR... maybe to a couple of the races. Like Drell getting a DR evo to Biotic Charge would be pretty cool. Not sure that they all need it.

[Quething]

So the solution to not having a new gold gun at ten is to have a slightly less new gold gun at ten? Okay then. My huSoldier will just continue to rock Plat with an Eviscerator and a Raptor and laugh at the poor pathetic vanguard for whom it's apparently perfectly reasonable to require Rares to perform acceptably in Gold.

As for the Paladin sucking... heh. Okay. You go on thinking that too.

[megawug]

I think they need to increase the DR. In platinum, two Primes will knockout my vanguard after charging before I can even dodge.

The other thing I've noticed is that many people are not "prepping" the target(s) before charging. I strongly recommend using ammo powers, a stagger weapon/power, grenade, and/or kitchen sink before charging. Relying on BC alone on gold/platinum is a death wish (and as it should be, in my opinion).

Modifié par megawug, 04 septembre 2012 - 08:37 .

[Lucrece]

Quething wrote...

So the solution to not having a new gold gun at ten is to have a slightly less new gold gun at ten? Okay then. My huSoldier will just continue to rock Plat with an Eviscerator and a Raptor and laugh at the poor pathetic vanguard for whom it's apparently perfectly reasonable to require Rares to perform acceptably in Gold.

As for the Paladin sucking... heh. Okay. You go on thinking that too.

Keep believing rares are hard to come by. Maybe for people who constantly fail games.

[Moxy_Pirate]

My problem with this thread is there a lot of people exaggerating how bad vanguards have it. For me they are really awesome. Sure they could use some tweaks but some of the issues mentioned aren't real problems.

Let me just say this. If all vanguards became stagger immune and had DR on biotic charge, I'd probably stop playing them. They'd be so OP. Just running around charging everything and blowing all their cds on crowds of enemies.

[Achire]

Biotic Charge Power (all kits excluding the Krogan)
- Base force increased from 600 to 650

P.S. All Vanguards already have a 4s 50% DR effect on Charge.

Modifié par Achire, 04 septembre 2012 - 10:12 .

[Achire]

Tested the force buff and it does actually work this time

[thegamefreek78648]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

thegamefreek78648 wrote...

By the way, do any of you know what (or how many what's) cause the glitch that keeps you from charging even when you are host?

http://social.biowar...107/27#13846351 
This is the closest I've found to answer your enquiry =P

Thanks, a real "Ahhhh..." inducing post.

And thanks MP-Ryan for writing it up and posting an unclickable link to it later on

[thegamefreek78648]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...
Nonsense, kroguard is the only *actual* vanguard in Mass Effect 3.  All the rest are flying adepts.  You know this =)

And that is precisely why it doesn't count when I'm talking about the rest of the lot =P

Flying adept, LOL



Son of a .....

Two new classes just popped into my head.....

A biotic Krogan that has the power to throw his team mates....
And a Volus adept that has a barrier/dark channel like ability that causes damage on impact, the stronger the impact the higher the damage....

"Toss me...."
"What?"
"I cannot jump the distance you'll have to Toss me!"
"Ok"
"Hey, hey, hey.... Don't tell the Asari...."

[Shampoohorn]

Achire wrote...

Biotic Charge Power (all kits excluding the Krogan)
- Base force increased from 600 to 650

P.S. All Vanguards already have a 4s 50% DR effect on Charge.

Nice!  My drellguard will be so happy.  Maybe I'll go back to weapon synergy because of this.


WRT to the 4 second DR effect.  My most recent drellguard spec is all melee in the fitness tree. As a result I used 4 medigel in my last gold match with him because he came out of his charge either without barriers or just dead.  I'd assumed this charge bug was just a random thing, but it now clearly seems to be tied to the amount of barrier your charge is replenishing.  If the next match repeats this I'll probably be relegated to cyclonic mods as his armor slot consumable or respec from melee to fitness.

[Achire]

That is one reason why Cyclonic Modulators are so useful. You will rarely lose full shields straight out of Charge even on Platinum.

[MP-Ryan]

Achire wrote...

Tested the force buff and it does actually work this time

Hallefrickinlluja!  Now if they'd just fix the Vanuard glitch so we can both Novaguard through a game without one of us going airborne.

[Shampoohorn]

Achire wrote...

That is one reason why Cyclonic Modulators are so useful. You will rarely lose full shields straight out of Charge even on Platinum.

I have usually shied away from CMs on drellguards since their boost it tied to base shields.  I hadnt thought that the 112.5 point difference in shields between a melee and h/s build would make him bug out any more than he already did.  Seems I'm mistaken and I'll have to flip my AdrMods for more shields.

[megawug]

Achire wrote...

Biotic Charge Power (all kits excluding the Krogan)
- Base force increased from 600 to 650

P.S. All Vanguards already have a 4s 50% DR effect on Charge.

Unfortunately, 50% DR on platinum hardly makes a difference.  At ~70%, it might be useful.  It's that extra half second between life and death....

[Pedro Costa]

Went for a test run of the new buff with area-charge novaguard.
U/U/G, turned out as condor/reapers
Awesome team, a bat sentinel (probably testing the buffs) one salarian inf with a black widow and a destroyer with a harrier and a gps.
Wave 6, I hadn't died once, hadn't lost as much as a bar of health and was second on the score board, basically my best gold match yet.
Disconnected.

So pissed right now... but for what it's worth, either I was playing at the top of my game, or the buff did more than just allow us to stagger phantoms.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 04 septembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Destructo-Bot]

Lucrece wrote...

The Paladin sucks. Whoopity****ing doo, I can debuff bosses. Too bad an infiltrator still downs the boss in a fraction of the time, as does a demolisher regardless.

No, the Paladin does not suck. Use a Falcon and you can absolutely take on 4 phantoms at once... which I've done. ED to remove barrier, falcon to stagger, strip any remaining defenses and one slap with the shield leaves a dead phantom. Shoot the falcon to stagger the remaining three, shield smack, repeat until all four are dead.

Can other classes kill faster than the Paladin? Sure. Can other classes CC like him? Not really. I can lock down an entire wave with a Paladin which lets my teammates get out of cover and do even more damage faster while taking no damage themselves. And I can do it while getting 75+ kill medals.

Paladins can also tank banshees and primes without a problem. As soon as she throws a warp at you just drop the shield and it dissipates harmlessly. Same for the AOE explosion she does. Same idea for primes.  This means your infiltrator or soldier buddy gets to stay out of cover and really put some lead into them.

Paladin is a great class, and a blast to play. So now we've got two people in this thread making claims about classes that they clearly don't have a grasp on

Here's a link to a post I made a day or ago regarding the Paladin: http://social.biowar...971989#13973086


Now back to Moxy: My point was that despite the Vanguard's need to be "in yo grill" they really don't have the performance to back up the extra risk. The screenies I posted were to show I can beat my best (non-krogan) Vanguard scores/times with other classes that don't take the kinds of risks that Vanguards do. This DOES NOT MEAN that vanny's aren't fun, or impossible to use on gold or platinum. It JUST MEANS that they have a much worse risk/benefit ratio than every other class. And we'd like to see that change.

Edit: addressing another point, there are 2 guns that low-CD novaguards can use that would be reasonable to expect anyone to have. Eviscerator & Carnifex. The other weapons didn't exist beforehand or are ultra-rare/promos. Not a lot of choice there. The Talon, Scorpion, Pirhana, or Hurricane aren't necessarily available to any particular person.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 05 septembre 2012 - 01:59 .

[Lucrece]

if you bring a Falcon, you're doing **** for damage or have stupid high cd's on shield drain by ringing another weapon do do damage with. CC? On Platinum sole health mobs disappear pretty early on, and Cryo Blast takes three uses with full power bonuses to take off simple shields on groups of enemies, since shield drain will only remove one shield at a time. You need to bring in a Falcon, my Slayer brings in a 700 damage per shot skill that aoe staggers, does 75% more damage to armor, with a bonus on top from biotic charge, that you can use three times before the next charge. A near 3 sec cd charge on my Slayer means that short of geting surrounded by more thant two primes and some pyros or phantoms, I cannot die. Your Paladin shield won't tank that, ever. You can solo boss units, and so can my slayer. Most of the time, you handle more than one boss unit or one surrounded by several.

Just drop the act that vanguards are worse off than a sentinel class, because outside the drell vanguard they are not.

I want buffs for both, because they are my two favorite classes and ones I have fun with despite their inferiority to adepts, soldiers, and most of all infiltrators.

Modifié par Lucrece, 05 septembre 2012 - 02:03 .

[Destructo-Bot]

You didn't say sentinels suck, you said the Paladin sucks. Which it does not. Second weapon? A Talon/Paladin/Carnifex with UL materials leaves around 150% or better cooldown as will the Hurricane when SMG ULM is patched and the Hornet can be used without ULMs for 155%. Does the paladin do the same damage as a Soldier or Infiltrator? No. Does it fill it's own role just fine? Yes.

The verbage from the game defines vanguards as CQC specialists, and the Sentinels as able to combine tech and/or biotics to disable enemies or defend the party. A Paladin with ED, Cryo Blast, Shield mastery, and the Falcon fills this role superbly. The Vanguards save the Krogan don't really fill the role of CQC specialist quite so well.

If you want to argue that about the OTHER sentinels, then fine. But they aren't the ones you SPECIFICALLY mentioned. I love me some CC with the Paladin, and I'll take on 3 or 4 phantoms without breaking a sweat, and I'll go nuts with melee combat with him too. He's a blast, he's reasonably durable, he melees like a freight train, and he can lockdown almost anything and he'll break 150K in gold without breathing hard. What class are you playing?

If you want to buff him, I'm all for it though. Maybe Bioware can throw in a 100+ kill medal along with the buff to display how awesome they just made him.

Is he the best class for platinum? Probably not as the enemy layout doesn't fit his strengths as well. That just means that all you generally see on platinum is Gethfiltrators and Destroyers (or reavers and biotic slash bombers). He can be played there however, he just needs a different loadout/skill spec than a gold oriented Paly.

I'd recommend avoiding hyperbole if you didn't really mean that Paladins suck. Vanguards don't suck, but most do seem underpowered given what their class description implies.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 05 septembre 2012 - 05:09 .

[Lucrece]

Vanguards can all play Gold at scores of 160k, it's only at Plat that they suffer. Who gives a **** about Gold anyway? It's stupidly easy to play on any toon besides probably a drellguard.

And apparently you haven't reeady my earlier posts, because my first stated the sentinel class suffered, and someone countered with a Paladin example. You just admitted that the Paladin is deficient compared to the other classes in Plat, as is the Vanguard (and my Slayer certainly fares better in Plat, simply because a 3 sec charge with Hurricane and PD propped up by the new Vanguard buffs is amazing for everything even if it's not broken like a Geth Infiltrator or Demolisher).

Carrying a Falcon alongside a talon will NOT yield 150% cooldown, not even close. With a Piranha, which weighs less, and a Talon I still sit at less than 150. I'd love to see a video of your wonderful Paladin tanking many groups on Plat, I really do.

But you keep pushing the Gold angle, as if the difficulty of that were actually something of note. It's a stupidly easy difficulty. It doesn't serve as a benchmark for anything, otherwise novaguards and vanguards in general would be deemed fine as there are plenty of solo gold videos with vanguards.

There are NO roles in platinum, that's just inefficient play. Outside infiltrators being stupidly useful for objectives because tactical cloak is OP, in Platinum the game is all about sheer damage and stagger capacity. Sentinels are hardly useful in Platinum because you don't need a Paladin's armor debuff when Geth Infiltrators and Destroyers and Demolishers are killing Banshees in under 6 seconds. That kind of damage capacity blows any utility out of the water, and is a reason why infiltrators have stayed such a dominant class across all difficultiesPlat is the difficulty by which everything gets balanced now, and sentinels and vanguards as a whole just don't match soldiers and infiltrators, and to a lesser extent adepts..

Modifié par Lucrece, 05 septembre 2012 - 05:52 .

[Destructo-Bot]

If you are intent on balancing for platinum then everything aside from the N7 Destroyer and Gethfiltrator are going to need some massive buffs. Gold still feels like the game we started with, not the boss rush of Platinum. It's an entirely difference balance. If we are going to argue what is most effective on platinum it's all Destroyers with Reegars/Harriers whereas we can actually have some useful diversity on the other difficulties. Crowd-control is insanely useful on Gold where mooks abound.

Some people find min-maxing to be the ultimate form of entertainment. Others just want to have fun even if it isn't the most "optimal" build. Playing the Paladin as Mr. Freeze sure is fun, so is going on a rampage with a ~2 second CD novaguard. Those two tend to suffer on platinum because there aren't really any crowds of mooks to control. If we had a new Diamond difficulty where it wasn't any bosses but instead it was literally hundreds of mooks rushing you at once, the novaguard and paladin would absolutely dominate and the single-target high damage classes like the Gethfiltrator and Destroyer would be in the same boat as the novaguard and paladin are in platinum.

I'm not arguing that either wouldn't benefit from a buff, I AM arguing however that they DO NOT SUCK! Platinum requires a very specific type of damage dealer, which is just bad design on Bioware's part. A mook heavy diamond difficulty would flip things around entirely.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 05 septembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Achire]

I don't see the point in a "whose class is the worst" pissing match (FQE wins by the way). This is not a sentinel thread. Sentinels being mostly kind of crappy, while true, is not really relevant.

As for Platinum, the whole case for the recent Vanguard buffs has been that they're not up to par on Platinum. None of them ever had any trouble on Gold. Platinum is badly designed and very unbalanced, but it should not be completely ignored in terms of balance changes.

[megawug]

The only problem I find is that it's not possible to "pre-stagger" enemies reliably before charging in platinum, since it's mostly boss-types, and end up getting killed without a chance to respond.

Maybe the solution is to increase DR right after charge, but shorten the duration to compensate. I'd be okay with just a one second DR duration as long as the DR was high enough to be useful.

[Shampoohorn]

megawug wrote...

The only problem I find is that it's not possible to "pre-stagger" enemies reliably before charging in platinum, since it's mostly boss-types, and end up getting killed without a chance to respond.

Maybe the solution is to increase DR right after charge, but shorten the duration to compensate. I'd be okay with just a one second DR duration as long as the DR was high enough to be useful.

I'll be interested in seeing what the patch does for the vanguard.  Bioware's said they're aware of the charge and die bug, so I'm hopeful that they'll implement some sort of additional DR or post charge immunity frames.  Oh patch! Where are you?

[Destructo-Bot]

Achire wrote...
...a "whose class is the worst" pissing match (FQE wins by the way)...

Oh no he di'int

http://t1.gstatic.co...K7y9wphYQzQ&t=1

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 05 septembre 2012 - 05:40 .