851 réponses à ce sujet

[cuzIMgood]

Didn't read all of your post but in general I feel like every vanguard is very powerful. I do wish they could be a little bit more "combat" related like they are suppose to be instead of an adept with charge but still. They are a good class but hard to use and a lot of players suck or get glitched with them which is why the tend to get booted.

Also, I don't think shockwave needs a buff. It already has received multiple buffs and now has pretty good range, is spammable, and has the highest biotic explosion damage of any ability in the game.

[Gamemako]

Achire wrote...

Gamemako, do you know how damage a tech bursts do on Platinum? How do Disruptor Ammo IV tech bursts compare to rank 6 setup power ones? Also consider that you can shoot between charge and nova spam. Even with all this it's still going to leave you at a pretty low DPS especially on Platinum, though. I do believe that Charge (and Nova) should get a small (30%?) biotic detonation bonus, but that would of course require a patch.

No, I don't know exactly how much tech bursts do on Platinum, nor do I know what level ammo powers count as for bursting purposes. The mechanics of combos are still somewhat a mystery: we have base damage, but we don't know for sure what the modifiers are.

[Anders028]

 The Human Nova vanguards suffer from latency issues if you are not host.  Also the sync kills with the something specifically like the Banshees, Phantoms, and Atlas happen at high rate.  Another point is that for the most effective stuff it is super helpful to have a competent Drell Adept and to an extent someone with Warp.

[Pyth the Bull]

I personally feel as if (Biotic) Charge ruined Vanguards in some way. Rather than being Close Quarters Soldiers with their Biotics to supplement their abilities, they simply became Biotic Beserkers. Really think they should have had something similar to Adrenaline Rush (a biotic version) with a biotic power and one of the grenade types... something to at least make them feel like they filled the role between Soldier & Adept. But that's just my opinion.

That being said, I still spam the Hell out of "Y" when I'm playing as them. So I must not hate the ability too much.

[Zanru]

 

Gamemako wrote...

Bwnci wrote...

Gamemako I simply have to disagree. If you focus more on Power Synergy than Weapon and spec your gernades for damage and force, you should find the Cluster Gernades and Lift Gernades do very effective damage at point blank range (for the full impact). I can't tell you how it works for you, but I handle all enemy types very well and can only recommend my way of doing it if you say your struggling.

Good thing I had this response in my pocket for just such an occasion:

-Those lift grenades are dealing +125% before Chrage bonus on an AV, which is 1575. After Charge, its 1750. A Platinum  Brute has 11700 armor, so you can kill him if you are willing to use all 8 grenades (7 if you have the charge bonus applied already).
-Herein lies the issue: the Brute is not a particularly sturdy opponent. A Gethfiltrator with a Piranha can kill one in roughly 1.04 seconds of fire from a Piranha. It will take you at least three times that just to throw out the grenades.
-These grenades, like most others, are primarily good for killing mooks. Toss a few at a group of attacking pyros and they go away. The question that must be asked, however, is "What Pyros?" There aren't many groups of mooks on Platinum to use them on.
-Worse still, if you want to kill a Platinum pyro, you need 7413 damage -- that's 5 lift grenades for one little guy!

Becuse of the HP pools of enemies on Platinum, it takes an incredible number of grenades to actually be effective unless your grenades deal bonus damage to certain types of defense (e.g. like how a single Arc Grenade strips the shields off a Platinum Pyro and a single Homing Grenade finishes him off). The lack of groups of vulnerable mooks makes the Vanguard an unhappy camper in general. Add in the absolutely pathetic damage bonuses from Charge and you have a character suited to doing... not very much damage, especially on a sustained basis. Worse, you try to use grenades like that and you're going to run out in a hurry. Cluster Grenades are a similar story, though slightly less dire (since you can spec them up to 1100 per grenade with 3 grenades per throw).

I have used the AV and Drellguard on Platinum. I have... survived, at least, with the Asari. The Drell was a disaster from the first wave; even a Cyclonic Modulator IV and 8 Cluster Grenades don't begin to make him tolerable.

The only skill a Vanguard has that is a worthy primary damage tool is Smash, and that's a power that makes you more Adept than Vanguard (removing Charge from the equation as long as you are using it). Even Nova's damage is pretty underwhelming for a skill that can be used once every 2.5 seconds. 840 for health, 1680 protection per 2. seconds means that it's pretty awful a skill combination every 2.35 seconds, let's say, plus 475 from Charge itself. Woo, whopping 917 DPS against a single target. That only gets outdone by a half-dozen guns with no equipment at all. Clearly, using Charge->Nova is not an effective damage tool unless you're hitting multiple targets, and multiple targets are not in the cards for Platinum. Hell, you can bring a Mattock on a random character, say a Human Sentinel, and outdo a Vanguard who hits two preferred targets with every Nova. That's how bad the damage output really is. You can tie it to biotic explosions, but consider this: Charge and Nova deal no bonus to explosions, so even if you set off 3 biotic explosions per biotic charge cycle, you could set off 2.5 biotic explosions with +50% explosion power by just using Throw. If we assume a 50% on the setup (no primer has more), Charge/Nova gets 4.5x biosplosion damage and Throw spam gets 5x biosplosion damage. If the primer has no bonus, then it's 3x versus 3.75% biosplosion damage. Coupled with the damage from Throw (neglecting bullets altogether, which the throw-spammer gets in force), the Throw spam is still delivering at least equal damage, again with lower risk.

That is the point that has to be made here: Vanguards do not excel at delivering damage. They are actually pretty terribly at it compared to, say, a Human Sentinel who puts out 3000+ damage per biotic combo on a target and has ample time for bullets in the interim with much less risk. Vanguard have certain burst damage skills like grenades which help with damage output, but those are better suited to groups of small things, cannot be used on a constant basis, and don't benefit from being used on a Vanguard at all. It doesn't make sense to use Vanguards if you want damage output and it doesn't make sense to use Vanguards if you want durability (Krogan excepted). Those who use Vanguards do so despite their weaknesses, not because there's some payoff for the risk they assume. When a Vanguard throws himself across the battlefield, he needs to have the cards in hand to make a worthwhile play. Right now, he lacks that, and until that changes, he'll continue to be the Bronze Bomber.

//EDIT: Uberschveinen, since you seem to believe he is quite great, please create a video for soloing Platinum with your N7 Slayer. I have yet to see anyone show the N7 Slayer worthy of anything but the same thing a Drell does -- kill mooks that disappear after the first waves of Gold. I've done many gold matches with him -- 6/6/3/5/6 build works best for me -- and he's really not very good in my experience.

You want a solo run on a mode riddled with synch kills and banshees for a class you know has a horrible time in general with them? All Uberschveinen was pointing out was it is far better than most give it credit for. I do believe it needs a few tweaks here and there but the Slayer really does sum up a vanguard quite nicely. As a character it has quite possibly the best DR/invulnerabilty (next to kroguard) and best mobility in the game. He can cover a very large amount of ground very quickly, allowing for quick retreats after a charge if necessary, PD+BC supplement strong hit and run tactics, and BS is a powerful longe range biotic attack with a rather large detonator buff evo that happens to stagger in an aoe in front of you and deal minor damage on startup, while being able to be cancelled into a melee or a dodge at any time during the move, doing so before the wave appears gives you the minor damage and aoe stagger but not activating the cooldown(I have staggered Atlas' and Prime's on gold with it as well).

PD is also a guaranteed stagger against anything that's not a banshee, when spec'd for barriers/shields it strips most lesser enemies of theirs shields quickly, rocket troopers lose shields in 1, phantoms lose barries in either 2 or 3 while losing a large chunk of health, and most everything else has no shields/barriers and half health in 2 shots. It shreds boss shields too, while dealing respectable damage to armor as well. His light melee is incredible, it's just a mass of invul frames that deal damage, you can literally charge a group of 3 pyros, 3 hunters, and 2 geth primes with rocket troopers as back-up and sit there and light melee and not have to take damage until you get melee'd. That's if they can melee you, because you can cancel your light melee into any other action, as soon as you see a ravager/prime/phantom/atlas/brute try to melee you(those are just about the only things that'll stagger you while you light melee, not entirely sure about nades as I've never been hit by them while meleeing, but I've competely ignored geth rocket troopers, oh and everything banshees do staggers too I think, **** banshees though), back dodge>PD spam>charge back in/BS spam. You have the ability to attract and tank a lot of aggro, effectively allowing your allies to do what they want. Or you can implement hit-and-run tactics, which, on the slayer, are very effective.

For the Slayer I would agree on a slight melee buff and some extra shields, giving him too strong of a light melee with the amount of invul/DR it gets could easily break the character, especially since people want to give hima sword mastery tree with armor/shields/barrier damage as a 6th evo. It could easily allow him to wade into a fight and kill everything with no worries outside of a sych kill, and if you led in with PD>charge the only thing that would live long enough to do so would be banshees and atlases.

I do agree with charge getting some buffs/changes, notably in force, as well as giving characters something more suited to their style of play, i.e slayer should have melee synergy instead of weapon synergy, he doesn't rely on his weapon much at all. Base shields buffs for all vanguards sans kroguard would be nice as well, drellguard needs a re-work, and the HV needs damage buffs.

[Quething]

Pyth the Bull wrote...

I personally feel as if (Biotic) Charge ruined Vanguards in some way. Rather than being Close Quarters Soldiers with their Biotics to supplement their abilities, they simply became Biotic Beserkers. Really think they should have had something similar to Adrenaline Rush (a biotic version) with a biotic power and one of the grenade types... something to at least make them feel like they filled the role between Soldier & Adept. But that's just my opinion.

They've seesawed madly.
In ME1 they felt like exactly what they were advertised as: combat/biotic hybrids. You had two very good gun skills, a passive that improved your durability and weapon damage, pretty good mitigation in medium armor, and a set of biotic skills that complemented that role (barrier, warp), plus two very good biotic skills that weren't about your soldier role at all, but instead offered the biotic's role of crowd control and biotic direct damage (Lift and Throw). You could pump Barrier and Shotgun, toss points in Sniper Rifles for your bonus power, and go all-out as a biotically-boosted soldier, or you could pump Lift and Warp, add Singularity and use Adrenaline Rush to make yourself the ultimate caster. One build was clearly more powerful but both were intuitive to the class and felt like they belonged.

In ME2 the devs introduced Charge, which was a biotic ability that did mediocre force, even more mediocre damage, and was absolutely amazing for tactical positioning and quickly getting you into range for that 2x damage modifier. They then gave our Warp and Throw to sentinels and instead slapped us with the completely nondamaging 1-pt-wonder Pull, buried it under the utterly useless and also nondamaging Shockwave, and gave us Cryo Ammo which completely messed up biotic physics and made it actually counterproductive to try to use two of our class skills at once. We had minimal ability to crowd control and none whatsoever to do direct biotic damage. We had absolutely incredible weapon kits, though. The vanguard had become a soldier, full stop: you killed stuff with a Claymore or Scimitar or Eviscerator, relying on Charge, the local Inferno Ammo panic and the wide-area Squad Cryo control effect to let you get in position to be maximally effective with your shotgun of choice. Trying to play as a biotic vanguard was weak, counterintuitive, forced you to avoid certain class skills and rely entirely on your bonus power to accomplish anything.

In ME3 the devs removed the point-blank damage bonus, introduced Nova, and also made everything and its mother trigger biotic combos. We retain our ammo powers but they take serious nerfs, particularly in the area of the lifesaving Inferno panic. Despite the introduction of a bunch of new combat powers (nades, Carnage, Marksman, etc) we get none; all our active abilities are biotic. The ratio of enemy damage to player shields goes up so starkly that shield is no longer meaningful apart from shieldgate, and between that and the Inferno nerf our survivability in melee becomes contingent on immunity frames and fast cooldowns. Combine this with the weight system, and the generally obscene potency of biotic combos, and the Claymore vanguard is dead, long live the Claymore infiltrator. Combat vanguards are better and more synergistic in ME3 than biotic vanguards were in ME2, but they're still dramatically inferior mechanically and require ignoring major class skills to build.

It's not at all surprising this biotic focus is reflected in multiplayer. But without Shepard's ability to stack +cooldown and +power damage bonuses six stories high, pack a strong ammo power to every mission, freely expand her kit with a shield stripper or shield/armor primer, trigger Liara's Singularity every three seconds, and level lightweight caster guns like the Wraith and Paladin to X quickly and without restriction, MP vanguards can't emulate any of the advantages that make vanguard!Shep an effective biotic, either.

[MAGlKARP]

Achire wrote...

I guess it's really a question of what exactly is a Vanguards role in the game. To kill mooks fast? Not many of them on Platinum, and most of them got sizable HP boosts. To detonate? But you get no bonus. To tank (Novaguard)? You get stunlocked to death (note! not sync-killed) on Platinum. To shoot stuff at short range? But the weapon damage bonus is pitiful, and again on Platinum you die incredibly fast.

The benefit of detonating with the novaguard is that it draws aggro from the enemies and detonates at the same time. If you just use a throw or shockwave user to detonate you'll find that it's more difficult for the whole team because the enemies are shooting you at the same time. The beauty of using the novaguard is those glorious invincibility frames that allow for a pseudo-decoy that detonates biosplosions at the same time.

I will admit that the novaguard is kind of useless against geth because of stunlock. Furthermore they're unavoidable on platinum. I don't play much platinum but it seems like you're pidgeon-holed into using classes suited to boss killing anyway. I haven't tried a biotic team yet though.

[MP-Ryan]

MAGlKARP wrote...

Achire wrote...

I guess it's really a question of what exactly is a Vanguards role in the game. To kill mooks fast? Not many of them on Platinum, and most of them got sizable HP boosts. To detonate? But you get no bonus. To tank (Novaguard)? You get stunlocked to death (note! not sync-killed) on Platinum. To shoot stuff at short range? But the weapon damage bonus is pitiful, and again on Platinum you die incredibly fast.

The benefit of detonating with the novaguard is that it draws aggro from the enemies and detonates at the same time. If you just use a throw or shockwave user to detonate you'll find that it's more difficult for the whole team because the enemies are shooting you at the same time. The beauty of using the novaguard is those glorious invincibility frames that allow for a pseudo-decoy that detonates biosplosions at the same time.

I will admit that the novaguard is kind of useless against geth because of stunlock. Furthermore they're unavoidable on platinum. I don't play much platinum but it seems like you're pidgeon-holed into using classes suited to boss killing anyway. I haven't tried a biotic team yet though.

The big problem with the Novaguard above Silver is (as GodlessPaladin pointed out in another discussion) power creep.  S/he hasn't had any real buffs, while all the enemies have gotten more difficult (in the Geth's case, they're outright hackers ) and Nova hasn't seen a corresponding buff.

Couple that with the delay in triggering Nova if you aren't host, and the Vanguard glitch, and the magical magnet hands of Banshees, Phantoms, and Atlases on Gold and Platinum, and the only way to successfully Novaguard on higher difficulties is to make sure you host, take a pathetic weapon, use half-blast, and sprint around like a mad chicken.  I know a few people have soloed Geth and Cerberus (I've only solo'd to wave 4 against Cerberus on Gold myself, but my unlocks are still relatively low), but they are by far the exception.  Most of the time you can hold your own, but only with a good team that sets up BEs and revives you when you get BS stunlocked or a Phantom fails to stagger and slices and dices you.

[Bleachrude]

Why exactly are you focusing on Platinum? Seriously, how many classes are actually viable on platinum?

There are 36 individual class breakdowns...From Human adept to N7 Slayer. Now, factor out the infiltratos who are all platinum viable INDIVIDUALLY (except ironically for the Shadow - the boss spam of platinum screw her hard) we have 30 individual classes.

The adepts are platinum viable but that requires the entire team to be biotic...Ever seen how well a asari justicar does with a non-biotic team? Not pretty at all...

Soldiers have what - 2 classes maybe? Destroyer and Human Soldier
Sentinels - absolutely boned
Engineers - Demolisher grenade spam - if you don't have Grenade gear V, don't bother....maybe Geth Engineer thanks to hunter mode...
Vanguards have two proven platinum classes in kroguard and the smashguard.

And you guys think Vanguards are being shortchanged?

Modifié par Bleachrude, 03 août 2012 - 03:08 .

[u21]

Just ran some test rounds in silver. Level 10-15 slayer specced for melee. I can confirm the issue previously stated.

His survival is damn near wholly dependant on constant ERROR-FREE cqc. By error-free I mean that you cannot NOT exploit the light melee + charge + animation cancel mechanic without cutting your survivability immensely.

It really is a great playstyle. If only it were a sniffed more forgiving...

[Pedactor]

Gamemako wrote...

Your problem here is that after Silver, there's no return on the risk.
Other classes deal more damage faster which much lower risk than a
Vanguard. The only Vanguard who really works in Platinum is the Krogan,
and that's because his shields make him a low-risk character right out
the gate. The Drell is the ultimate high-risk character, but what reward
are you getting? 15% weapon damage for 3 seconds while an Infiltrator
is getting +80% for 2.5? A Soldier is getting +70%? An N7 is getting
+30% sustained with +35% ROF to boot? Come on. As I said in my post,
part of the reason that Vanguards are not well-respected is that they
have some of the lowest damage output in the game DESPITE taking on all
the risk!

This is the summation of everything and basically, aside from the glitch of BC not going off or you being rendered worthless for an entire match.

This is a crushing flaw.

And simply buffing survivability wouldn't do a ton because how many Kroguards do we really need? 

<Survivability---------------------------------------------------Damage output>

^ Why isn't this considered?^

[Pedro Costa]

MP-Ryan wrote...
The big problem with the Novaguard above Silver is (as GodlessPaladin pointed out in another discussion) power creep.  S/he hasn't had any real buffs, while all the enemies have gotten more difficult (in the Geth's case, they're outright hackers ) and Nova hasn't seen a corresponding buff.

Couple that with the delay in triggering Nova if you aren't host, and the Vanguard glitch, and the magical magnet hands of Banshees, Phantoms, and Atlases on Gold and Platinum, and the only way to successfully Novaguard on higher difficulties is to make sure you host, take a pathetic weapon, use half-blast, and sprint around like a mad chicken.  I know a few people have soloed Geth and Cerberus (I've only solo'd to wave 4 against Cerberus on Gold myself, but my unlocks are still relatively low), but they are by far the exception.  Most of the time you can hold your own, but only with a good team that sets up BEs and revives you when you get BS stunlocked or a Phantom fails to stagger and slices and dices you.

This is pretty much the crux of it, really.

[Pedactor]

Up!

[Oich]

Elotana wrote...
Did you take the radius evolutions at Level 4 for both Pull and Charge? It makes Drellguard a lot more forgiving because otherwise you have to make sure to pull and charge the exact same mook.

Tried this out last night and radius evolution made all the difference. I guess my stumbling block was thinking I was only charging one guy anyway, so why would I need "additional targets"? I (stupidly) didn't think that the radius increas would also extend vertically to the floating dude. So, that's sorted, thanks.

(except for when pull randomly/magically launches some dude into the stratosphere. so, no explosion, but fun times anyway.)

[Achire]

I was thinking a new thread with a combined list of reasonable buffs might be in order. Perhaps with the changes categorized as requiring or not requiring a patch. Balance changes, after all, actually get implemented as opposed to patches. Having a coherent list instead of ideas scattered all around the thread would help the visibility of these issues a lot.

There is, of course, nothing stopping me from starting a thread like this myself. I'm just kind of hoping Gamemako would do that instead, since he clearly has the best grasp on the situation

[Elotana]

If you make a new thread, please add a disclaimer that anyone whose response will be some variation of "learn 2 play" must accompany that post with a video of them soloing Platinum with a non-Krogan Vanguard, so we don't get a bunch of clueless Silver idiots littering the thread with drive-by condescension.

[Pedactor]

Achire wrote...

I was thinking a new thread with a combined list of reasonable buffs might be in order. Perhaps with the changes categorized as requiring or not requiring a patch. Balance changes, after all, actually get implemented as opposed to patches. Having a coherent list instead of ideas scattered all around the thread would help the visibility of these issues a lot.

There is, of course, nothing stopping me from starting a thread like this myself. I'm just kind of hoping Gamemako would do that instead, since he clearly has the best grasp on the situation

This thread covers the gamut, but the OP should edit his opening with a Summary of what's been said, then this should be stickied.

[Bwnci]

All this focus on Platinum is bad though. The difficulty was designed to encourage teamwork (well honestly it was designed to kick our arses, but that in turn encourages teamwork) and the Vanguard is a great team player. As stated, most are quite capeable of detonating several bursts or explosions during frames of invulnerability which causes so much aggravation for the enemy that the Vanguard becomes invaluable to many teams, as is.

If they matched the damage output of a infiltrator they wouldn't need a team, scratch the latency issues and most never die. The DPS of a Geth infiltrator with a Pirahna shotgun is insane, but he's a glass cannon. Someone needs to watch his shiny metal butt. There's all these different roles to take in the game and I think that makes it great. If everyone's a powerhouse we're just clean-up squads as opposed to men and women fighting a desperate war.

Fix the Vanguard glitch!.. And those sync kills while your at it.

Modifié par Bwnci, 03 août 2012 - 05:17 .

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...
There is, of course, nothing stopping me from starting a thread like this myself. I'm just kind of hoping Gamemako would do that instead, since he clearly has the best grasp on the situation

Sneaky, sneaky you

[Pedro Costa]

Bwnci wrote...
If they matched the damage output of a infiltrator they wouldn't need a team, scratch the latency issues and most never die. The DPS of a Geth infiltrator with a Pirahna shotgun is insane, but he's a glass cannon. Someone needs to watch his shiny metal butt. There's all these different roles to take in the game and I think that makes it great. If everyone's a powerhouse we're just clean-up squads as opposed to men and women fighting a desperate war.

Where, in this thread, is anyone asking for Vanguards to match the damage output of a GI, the most ridiculously overpowered freaking class of the whole game?
Please, point the post to me.

Also, 50% less BASE shields can easily be (and is) overcome by a cyclonic modulator. Also, Geth have higher base shields than any vanguard class sans Krogan and can ignore cooldowns completely, paired with wall-hack  and tactical cloak, they aren't the "glass cannons" you claim them to be. The fact most solos use them kind of prove it. They're squishy, definitely, but you know what? So are MANY other races and none of them have as ridiculous damage.

Vanguards, on the other hand, have... what, exactly?
Average protection, average-to-low damage output (cooldowns play a part in this) and a freaking high risk when used as they are suppose to (charge -> kill stuff) - they're vulnerable to stagger, vulnerable to sync kills and extremely squishy since they can't quickly handle what is killing them nor tank the damage they're receiving until they can handle it.

Vanguards are invulnerable on Bronze, extremely, extremely effective on Silver, viable on Gold and near useless on Platinum, that's what's being discussed, not "wahh! wahh! mah bangard isn't a dps beeest!111", like you are implying.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 03 août 2012 - 05:54 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

What kills the Vanguard for me isn't our inherent abilities, but the steeper learning curve on Gold. Learning how to handle most other classes on Gold (Ex: Salarian Engineer) isn't terrible and you can get away with making a few mistakes. Learning the Vanguard on Gold is more difficult because every mistaken charge is a guaranteed instant down, which means that squad members have to pick up the slack and get to you before an enemy does. This is less of a problem with other classes, hence the perception that vanguards are terrible from some players. It's really not that we're worse, but our mistakes tend to lead to graver consequences.

[megawug]

Yeah, it's not about the damage. BC was never that strong for outright damage. But on platinum especially, charging doesn't do squat against nearly any enemy. It's sad when a gun, throw, etc., stagger and knockback more effectively than BC (with maybe kroguard being the sole exception).

All it does now is close the distance, so that vanguards can wipe faster. Sigh.

[MAGlKARP]

 Would it be a stretch to give the novaguard annihilation field?

[Pedro Costa]

MAGlKARP wrote...

 Would it be a stretch to give the novaguard annihilation field?

Probably, since it'd require removing shockwave and all.
Better stick to the more simple changes since those are done with weekly balance changes rather than patches.

edit:
a suggestion on the balance all the things! group:

Shampoohorn wrote...
I've got a couple of ideas mostly focusing on biotic charge. With a few 'minor' adjustments I think the power tree can yield a number of viable and diverse builds for gold and maybe one for platinum. I'll ignore the krogan for now.
Evo1: Increase damage and force bonus to +45%/+45% putting all three races at or over the 1000N threshhold for staggering phantoms. Vanguards should be rewarded for taking this evolution in favor of the more versatile Radius option.
Evo2: Keep as is. Three targets is fine.
Evo3: weapon damage bonus increased to 25% for 5 seconds, like GP suggested but make it stackable. Two well timed charges will give you a chance to really ramp up your damage output.
Evo4: synergistic power damage bonus increased to 35%. Again like GP suggested, but again make it stackable. This is where a vanguard will get rewarded for their high risk strategy, as even a drell that took Evo2 will be able to stagger phantoms by their third charge.
Evo5: chance of not triggering a cooldown increased to 35%. I don't have access to my math at the moments but I think think 35% works out to be more reasonable than 40%. This evolution becomes very appealing in conjunction with the now stackable synergies from Evo3&amp;4.
This really ramps up the potential rewards for the vanguard's risky lifestyle.
Plus I would support the previous suggestion of more tangible DR for vanguards while their shields are charging post biotic  charge. The current mechanics -- whether due to a bug or some limitations of the game -- where their shields randomly fail is not acceptable, especially at higher difficulties.  Eric has acknowledged it is a problem that Bioware is looking into, so we've got some hope for a fix.

Honestly, I'm quite enamored with this suggestion.

edit: damn formating differences

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 03 août 2012 - 06:41 .

[Mazandus]

Bleachrude is correct. Vanguard's are hardly alone in being sub optimal for all situations/difficulties. All the classes are incredibly powerful on Bronze, almost equally so on Silver, and all are perfectly viable on Gold, less so with Platinum.

The thing with Vanguard's, is, they need space and opportunities to shine, but as the difficulty of the game is increased, the amount of time a player can spend "out in the open" decreases dramatically, regardless of class. All are still viable and there are very very good players who have solo'd Gold with all the classes, but without the space and time to pick your target, and indeed on Platinum and later Gold waves, without even having the right targets, the Vanguard suffers.

But they are hardly alone in this regard. Months ago the prevailing strategy on gold was to collapse into a corner and snipe everything. After numerous buffs and nerfs to the classes and weapons, and buffs to some of the enemies, things have changed. There are many more viable "mobile" team set ups now, but they require strategy and teamwork. Any significant buff to Vanguards or Krogan Soldiers or whomever and you are only adding to the arms race of power creep.

Sabresandiego and his crew were steamrolling Reaper Gold back when it was the hardest battle in the game with squads of Drell. But the average player who gets his/her hands on the Drellguard or Slayer or Krogan Sentinel and tries to get right in the face of the enemy is going to suffer. I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done about it. There are only so many knobs to tune without fundamentally changing the entire game. Also, it doesn't help the Vanguard that the entire game is horde survival. If there was some mode where credits were awarded based on clearing speeds or rapid extermination of targets then Vanguards would be much more prevalent in Gold (and maybe Plat too).


The best thing to do, imo, would be to fix the bugs, and give all vanguards a 100% stagger after Biotic Charging anything but a Brute or Banshee. And then perhaps consider upping their base melee damage or increasing the bonus to weapon damage after a charge.