102 réponses à ce sujet

[Fluffykeith]

I think both styles can work well. I don't mind the "mute" style because it allows me to imagine how my character sounds as they speak. I just use my imagination to fill in the voice, the inflection, accent etc. Sometimes when they use a voice actor the character comes across like a right tool that's watched The A-Team and Apocalypse Now too many times, or they come across as so clean cut and generic you'd think they just got off the set of a Disney movie.

[jennamarae]

R1cardo wrote...

People, let's do the maths:

6 origins, at least 2 axis of roleplaying (evil or good) = 12 voices

but you can be male or female = 12 x 2 = 24 voices

and yet, you would have to consider ethnics (white, afroamerican, asian)

with only this (probably we need a lot more than this), you have 24 x 3 = the astounding number of no less than 72 voices!

And others, like homossexual male/female, or lawful/caothic, etc...

Except that evil/good don't really exist in this game and even if it was effectively argued they do that doesn't necessarily mean they need different voices for both. There's no need to have different voices for homosexual characters versus heterosexual onces, or for lawful/chaotic characters, and regardless of a characters race they will sound like the area they are from. Thus the reason Americans in the mid-West have one accent and those in New York have a different one regardless of race. I can see them needing 12 voice actors at most to voice the PC (giving 6 male and 6 female options) because at least a few of those voice actors would be capable of doing multiple voices which could potentially mean that Bioware would need less than 12 or there would be more than 6 choices per gender.

But as I said in my first post on this thread I can understand why they didn't do so, with funding and time probably being the two biggest hurdles. I would have liked a voiced-PC, but I'm not torn up over it.

[R1cardo]

jennamarae wrote...

Except that evil/good don't really exist in this game and even if it was effectively argued they do that doesn't necessarily mean they need different voices for both. There's no need to have different voices for homosexual characters versus heterosexual onces, or for lawful/chaotic characters, and regardless of a characters race they will sound like the area they are from. Thus the reason Americans in the mid-West have one accent and those in New York have a different one regardless of race. I can see them needing 12 voice actors at most to voice the PC (giving 6 male and 6 female options) because at least a few of those voice actors would be capable of doing multiple voices which could potentially mean that Bioware would need less than 12 or there would be more than 6 choices per gender.

But as I said in my first post on this thread I can understand why they didn't do so, with funding and time probably being the two biggest hurdles. I would have liked a voiced-PC, but I'm not torn up over it.

Hm... Ok my example is a little bit exagerated

Let me try to correct my previous blunt statement:

You really don't need different voices for a evil and a good character - I agree, but the game would be really strange if, for example, the PC who goes on "raising the zombie kitten army" sounds exactly like the PC who "saves the princess from the tower"... The lines  for those two voices would be different, which effectively double the work for that actor, and that applies for other nuances too, don't you agree? Of course, it's not fundamental to be a different voice, but would be a lot better and coherent, no?

Let's say, 12 variations of voice for each gender... 24 voices, which still is too much cost wise, even if you have half dozen actors to make this.

Well, back on the topic: I prefer a silent Warden, than a talkative Shepard. Not that this detracts from immersion - not for me, anyway -  the problem is the compromise necessary to make this possible.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Cryo84 wrote...

Mass Effect did it brilliantly, DA was a step backwards.

Even if you're willing to force a specific protagonist on the player (which ME does, and is currently a necessary consequence of having a voiced PC), ME's implementation of that voice was incredibly bad.  By not letting us even choosing Shepard's words or actions, we were prevented from playing Shepard at all.

[Kimarous]

Exactly. Mass Effect didn't have the player choose Shepard's dialogue; it had you choose the tone s/he took. That really detracts from the experience for me. I want to respond to events line by line, not have the character read off a predetermined script at every verbal encounter.

[Pinkleaf]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...


The male Shep was voiced by a Canadian actually. Personally I'd rather Shep have a manly Canadian or American accent than an effete British one.  Jack Bauer in space should not sound like Elton John.

Cheers!

Haha,

Then it best to have none, if to keep everybody happy.  Would you not agree?

All that I am trying to say is that having my PC mute, allows me a greater degree of involment.

Modifié par Pinkleaf, 22 décembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[jennamarae]

R1cardo wrote...

Hm... Ok my example is a little bit exagerated

Just a little bit.

Let's say, 12 variations of voice for each gender... 24 voices, which still is too much cost wise, even if you have half dozen actors to make this.

Now that I agree with completely. Would've been a nice extra, but I'm sure it was cost-prohibitive so I'm not too sad about it.

[TheMadCat]

I'm kind of surprised at how much support there is for a voiced PC. I always saw it as nothing but a shallow aesthetic that took away more of the RP aspect then actually added. In certain games it's great, games where dialogue choices are rather restricted and limited or the game is designed around one specific and single PC such as Geralt in The Witcher. But for games like Dragon Age, I don't see a voiced PC being a good trade off for more restricted dialogue choices.

[Sylvius the Mad]

TheMadCat wrote...

I'm kind of surprised at how much support there is for a voiced PC. I always saw it as nothing but a shallow aesthetic that took away more of the RP aspect then actually added.

I dispute that those people are roleplaying.  They might think they're roleplaying, but they can't possibly be satisfying my definition of roleplaying if they think a voiced-PC is anything other than unequivocally bad.

[AntiChri5]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Cryo84 wrote...

Mass Effect did it brilliantly, DA was a step backwards.

Even if you're willing to force a specific protagonist on the player (which ME does, and is currently a necessary consequence of having a voiced PC), ME's implementation of that voice was incredibly bad.  By not letting us even choosing Shepard's words or actions, we were prevented from playing Shepard at all.

We must have been playing different games then

[Vaeliorin]

Voiced PC = no longer an RPG. Voice conveys too much character to allow you to have a voiced PC and still allow for the player to choose the character's personality. For example, in ME, I wanted to play a FemShep who was a tough as nails, no nonsense, hardcore military biatch. Instead I ended up with a FemShep who sounded like a timid little girl trying to act tough. Completely prevented me from playing the character I wanted to play.



Voicing the PC also harms replays. Playing as a different looking Shepard of the same gender just feels really odd. It's like someone else's voice is coming out of the second Shepards' mouth.



Allow me to jump up on the "Down with voice acting" bandwagon. I wish they'd go back to the days when at most the first line of an NPC's dialogue was spoken.

[AntiChri5]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Voiced PC = no longer an RPG. Voice conveys too much character to allow you to have a voiced PC and still allow for the player to choose the character's personality. For example, in ME, I wanted to play a FemShep who was a tough as nails, no nonsense, hardcore military biatch. Instead I ended up with a FemShep who sounded like a timid little girl trying to act tough. Completely prevented me from playing the character I wanted to play.

Voicing the PC also harms replays. Playing as a different looking Shepard of the same gender just feels really odd. It's like someone else's voice is coming out of the second Shepards' mouth.

Allow me to jump up on the "Down with voice acting" bandwagon. I wish they'd go back to the days when at most the first line of an NPC's dialogue was spoken.

Odd. That IS how she always sounded to me.

[Sidney]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Voiced PC = no longer an RPG. Voice conveys too much character to allow you to have a voiced PC and still allow for the player to choose the character's personality. For example, in ME, I wanted to play a FemShep who was a tough as nails, no nonsense, hardcore military biatch. Instead I ended up with a FemShep who sounded like a timid little girl trying to act tough. Completely prevented me from playing the character I wanted to play.

Voicing the PC also harms replays. Playing as a different looking Shepard of the same gender just feels really odd. It's like someone else's voice is coming out of the second Shepards' mouth.

Allow me to jump up on the "Down with voice acting" bandwagon. I wish they'd go back to the days when at most the first line of an NPC's dialogue was spoken.

I love that you think vocal tone affects your characters personality. Can't be tough as nails with a girly voice? Hell, Mike Tyson had a more girly voice than FemShep and at one time he was the baddest man on the planet. I think you lack some level of imagination to let that voice be part of the character. I ask a simple question, does an actor who plays a real person (Cash, Ray, Churchill) not really play a role because they use a known voice and mannerisms? Do they still not, if they are good actors, bring something to that role despite those boundaries? Since in ME you are playing Shep, a role like those, not Fuzzle Mubble the mage you dreamed up it is basically the same thing.

BTW, you've got to be squirrel buried nuts to want to walk away from full vocalizations of the NPCs. I can half see the "I want my own voice" but to want to mute the rest of the world I can't even fathom.

[bjdbwea]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Odd. That IS how she always sounded to me.

I thought so too, though at the same time it was not done over-the-top, which would have made it only unrealistic. Overall, one of the best voice acting I've ever heard in a game. Here's looking forward to ME 2, and hoping it'll be just as great.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:23 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Sidney wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...

Voiced PC = no longer an RPG. Voice conveys too much character to allow you to have a voiced PC and still allow for the player to choose the character's personality. For example, in ME, I wanted to play a FemShep who was a tough as nails, no nonsense, hardcore military biatch. Instead I ended up with a FemShep who sounded like a timid little girl trying to act tough. Completely prevented me from playing the character I wanted to play.

Voicing the PC also harms replays. Playing as a different looking Shepard of the same gender just feels really odd. It's like someone else's voice is coming out of the second Shepards' mouth.

Allow me to jump up on the "Down with voice acting" bandwagon. I wish they'd go back to the days when at most the first line of an NPC's dialogue was spoken.

I love that you think vocal tone affects your characters personality. Can't be tough as nails with a girly voice? Hell, Mike Tyson had a more girly voice than FemShep and at one time he was the baddest man on the planet. I think you lack some level of imagination to let that voice be part of the character. I ask a simple question, does an actor who plays a real person (Cash, Ray, Churchill) not really play a role because they use a known voice and mannerisms? Do they still not, if they are good actors, bring something to that role despite those boundaries? Since in ME you are playing Shep, a role like those, not Fuzzle Mubble the mage you dreamed up it is basically the same thing.

BTW, you've got to be squirrel buried nuts to want to walk away from full vocalizations of the NPCs. I can half see the "I want my own voice" but to want to mute the rest of the world I can't even fathom.

Just because you can't fathom it doesn't make it any less valid, at least for him.  And I don't believe he said it was that they sounded girly, it was that they sounded like a timid little girl trying to sound hard and failing, can still be tough as nails with a girly voice as long as they don't sound timid and are old enough to buy their own lager. 

It doesn't matter anyway, no matter what an actor 'brings to the table' he is still removing our choice to imagine our character a certain way, especially since most of the time we get generic action man marine voice which would be contrary to how I imagine my character sounding (think Vincent from Ergo Proxy).

[KalosCast]

You got my hopes up. I thought you meant that there was official support to remove your PC's taunts.



LESS FIGHTING MORE DYING, BLAST YOU

[Tosheroon]

 I think the problem of voiced versus unvoiced PC (and NPCs for that matter) lies in the development of 3D graphics. I reckon the Infinity Engine games worked so well without VO for two reasons:

1) You cannot see the faces of your characters, thus there are no artistic issues such as lip-syncing or facial expressions. The player imagines the conversations in his/her head rather than having it played out in movie form a la DA:O.

2) The isometric view of the Infinity Engine lent itself well to story-telling from a distance. The player role-plays the game from the perspective of a reader rather than as the characters themselves. Contrastingly, DA:O is designed to give the player a more intimate view of the proceedings.

In essence, while 3D gaming has provided great leaps for visual immersion, it has also created new barriers to the essential element of any RP or storytelling game: the suspension of disbelief. DA:O simply highlights that each advancement in Gaming towards reality coincides with a directly proportional increase in difficulty of conveying that reality. Our brains are hard-wired to pick up on flaws that each step towards reality brings, e.g. facial expressions, lip-syncing, animation, item modelling, to name but a few.

Having said all this I think that Bioware made the correct choice, regarding PC VO in DA:O, at this time. The alternative would have stretched resources that could otherwise have been more usefully spent in other areas.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sidney wrote...

I love that you think vocal tone affects your characters personality. Can't be tough as nails with a girly voice? Hell, Mike Tyson had a more girly voice than FemShep and at one time he was the baddest man on the planet.

It's not the sound of the voice that matters, but the delivery of the lines.

Even Mike Tyson had some control over how he said things.

[Sidney]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Just because you can't fathom it doesn't make it any less valid, at least for him.  And I don't believe he said it was that they sounded girly, it was that they sounded like a timid little girl trying to sound hard and failing, can still be tough as nails with a girly voice as long as they don't sound timid and are old enough to buy their own lager. 

It doesn't matter anyway, no matter what an actor 'brings to the table' he is still removing our choice to imagine our character a certain way, especially since most of the time we get generic action man marine voice which would be contrary to how I imagine my character sounding (think Vincent from Ergo Proxy).

Wow, you are parsing "girly" and "timid". Either way too PC or you never heard Tyson's timid wimpy voice trying to sound all tough at a press conference.

As for removing choice, yes, no kidding. You are playing a role and in this case the role is Shep. I again go back to playing the role of Johnny Cash. You can't just play that any old way you want. Bad news. he has a voice, he has an appearnace. You can still play the role of Johnny Cash. A better example but more obscure is Bubba Hotep. Bruce Campbell plays Elvis. He's playing and old burned out sick Elvis. He has latitude to do certain things because it is a fictionalize set of events but at some point he has to look and sound like The King. When you play Shep you have the ability to make him do certain things, a certain range of freedom but, in the end, you are still Shep.  You and other might not like that choice but that isn't a reflection on the game designers but on you.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sidney wrote...

When you play Shep you have the ability to make him do certain things, a certain range of freedom but, in the end, you are still Shep.  You and other might not like that choice but that isn't a reflection on the game designers but on you.

You're clearly not getting it.

The problem is not that our chouices are constrained by the character.  The problem is not that we're forced to play a specific person.  The problem is that we CAN'T play Shepard because we're not permitted to choose his actions and words.  We can't choose how he delivers lines.  We can't choose what he says.  We're givin no chance to play Shepard at all.  The voice and cinematic presentation in combination with the dialogue wheel entirely precludes it.

[Time Spiral]

I think it is a multi-pronged issue, and certainly a fun one to discuss.

In Mass Effect you are Role-Playing Shepherd - NOT your own character.
In DA:O the NPCs are presented in a dramatic, cinematic, yet
dynamic way. It is pretty remarkable so far. Their character's and personalities are so fully
realized with background, emotion, empathetic reactions, and other
idiosyncrasies that the process of voicing the PC would, by
necessity of quality control, have to also have a deeply defined
personality; like Shepherd.

I really enjoyed the voice acting in ME. I felt like I was watching a movie. But I never felt like I truly was Shepherd, because I wasn't. I was role playing Shepherd. Which was awesome! It is just a totally different experience. In DA, I am my character, because there is almost nothing that tells me I am not him. I have almost kicked someone off the team because of how strongly I disagreed with them, but due to the desperation of the situation, decided to bite my tongue. I have been angry, have experienced sympathy, and almost regret ... To me, this type of involvement is the key factor behind their decision to mute the PC.

From what I can tell, they wanted this to be an expansive RPG where you could really feel like you were the character, and free to role him the way you want to. Generally your dialogue choices cover your archetypical responses, and I do not really see them as "this is what my character says" but more like ... "This is the category of response I would say here." Sometimes there is not choice that fits  my character, but there is always one that fits close enough.

Back in the day, in many old-school RPGs, you were really just watching a movie. You wanted to keep playing the game because you liked the characters, the story, and the gameplay, but not a whole lot of real role playing got to happen. Your actions progressed the story, which provided incentive to keep playing. Today your actions also help define the story, which is just added incentive.

And of course ... Technical Limitations
Clearly it can be done. But, assuming that they stayed true to what they wanted to accomplish with DA:O with quality, the RPG element, and the choices ... The following become legitimate concerns.

Space: Audio is big. Really big, as far as file size is concerned. Even if you compressed the hell out of the file (which affects quality), I think one of the biggest barriers in voicing the PC is space. But they did it in Mass Effect?! Yeah. They did. I liked it. Monetary Limitations: Not having to voice the PC frees up money to be spent on other aspects of the development. Like lobster, and filets. But, all lobster jokes aside, I think they chose to mute the PC for much more valid and appropriate reasons.

My Conclusion
They are both awesome options. Voicing the PC will create a more cinematic experience, while a mute PC will facilitate a more in-depth RP experience.

Be peaceful on your way,
Time_Spiraling

[montana_boy]

bzombo wrote...

montana_boy wrote...

Pinkleaf wrote...

I think the decision to mute the main character was a touch of genius.
I have taken a look at some other games of sorts were the voice chosen for the main character really distracts from the emersion.

Even Mass effect, I feel was tarnished by the horrid American accent adopted by the main character, I'm sorry but the American accent really grinds on me.
Anyway, I hope that silent main characters become the norm, especially in this sort of game.

American accents are the way Americans speak, sooooo sorry.  I don't suppose British or Spanish or French or Italian, or Norwegian or German or Ethopian accents "grind" on you, right?  I don't suppose that these accents are "horrid" either, are they?

"Sheesh!" he said, with an American accent

i didn't particularly like that either. maybe someone should speak out about the anti-american comments in forums and how much THAT grates on them.

Heh, heh... great point!

[Sylvius the Mad]

Time Spiral wrote...

My Conclusion
They are both awesome options. Voicing the PC will create a more cinematic experience, while a mute PC will facilitate a more in-depth RP experience.

And thus, the way to make a better roleplaying game is to mute the PC.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Actors, unless they are very good on a Hugh Laurie level, should play their nationality and their accents. I wouldn't mind one bit for a Canadian Shepherd. That wouldn't have bothered me any. Who said the Earthborn Shepherd didn't come from the gang torn streets of Vancouver or Montreal. Not every English speaking character needs to be Americanized. Bioware should have more pride in their Canadian roots.

[Pinkleaf]

bzombo wrote...

montana_boy wrote...

Pinkleaf wrote...

I think the decision to mute the main character was a touch of genius.
I have taken a look at some other games of sorts were the voice chosen for the main character really distracts from the emersion.

Even Mass effect, I feel was tarnished by the horrid American accent adopted by the main character, I'm sorry but the American accent really grinds on me.
Anyway, I hope that silent main characters become the norm, especially in this sort of game.

American accents are the way Americans speak, sooooo sorry.  I don't suppose British or Spanish or French or Italian, or Norwegian or German or Ethopian accents "grind" on you, right?  I don't suppose that these accents are "horrid" either, are they?

"Sheesh!" he said, with an American accent

i didn't particularly like that either. maybe someone should speak out about the anti-american comments in forums and how much THAT grates on them.

And how would you associate myself not liking the American accent with me being anti-American?
It is personal taste, as much as you may say that you hate English fish and chips, would I take this as you being anti-British? I think not.

I happen to quite like our fellow Americans, regardless of their sloppy delivery.