317 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

How much of the total player base is farming that is a key question.

Bronze and silver pretty well no farming at all.
Gold if you try to get in a pug you have a high chance of getting a farming situation, however there are probably a lot more private games at the higher levels than lower levels.

Also BioWare probably has the ability to sort out farming data from the whole. I really don't agree with an assumption that a lot of these moves are due to the farming maps. We will never really know unless BioWare decides to tell us just how the ymake their decisions and on what data.

[YuenglingDragon]

They should lower gold payouts and attach a credit bonus for choosing random like you get an XP bonus. Then you could farm Geth on White all you want but you'll only get maybe 45k credits. 60k credits for choosing one random element, 75k for picking two random elements.

Ta da. Farming fixed. Could have done this months ago and saved us from having stupid nonsensical balance changes.

[darkblade]

I feel like I should tell the OP that the typhoon was only really nerfed once.

That first time the gun just had way too much penetration distance and that was probably unintended. They didnt weaken its damage to armor just how much material it penetrated, when a gun with no mods is shooting through pillars that needs to be fixed.

[Define Clarity]

Excellent post. My exact thoughts on "balancing" other than microtransactions.

[megawug]

YuenglingDragon wrote...

They should lower gold payouts and attach a credit bonus for choosing random like you get an XP bonus. Then you could farm Geth on White all you want but you'll only get maybe 45k credits. 60k credits for choosing one random element, 75k for picking two random elements.

Ta da. Farming fixed. Could have done this months ago and saved us from having stupid nonsensical balance changes.

+1

Lower the base credits and random/random should give bonus credits just like bonus XP.

[UnknownMercenary]

YuenglingDragon wrote...

They should lower gold payouts and attach a credit bonus for choosing random like you get an XP bonus. Then you could farm Geth on White all you want but you'll only get maybe 45k credits. 60k credits for choosing one random element, 75k for picking two random elements.

Ta da. Farming fixed. Could have done this months ago and saved us from having stupid nonsensical balance changes.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I will never pick random enemy on Gold until the Geth are fixed.

[megabeast37215]

k3ttl3black wrote...

 Or, hell, the Revenant feels like a LMG, it's just that after firing all 108 rounds dead centre at a target, said target is still standing up. Because, y'know, it's 25 metres away.

Safest place from the Revenant is right in front of the barrel.

[Define Clarity]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

YuenglingDragon wrote...

They should lower gold payouts and attach a credit bonus for choosing random like you get an XP bonus. Then you could farm Geth on White all you want but you'll only get maybe 45k credits. 60k credits for choosing one random element, 75k for picking two random elements.

Ta da. Farming fixed. Could have done this months ago and saved us from having stupid nonsensical balance changes.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I will never pick random enemy on Gold until the Geth are fixed.

[DarthVarner]

I concur with everything in this post, and would give it 6 stars if possible.

I would also like to add the following point:

This endless nerfing is also ruining the open, friendly community that used to exist around higher difficulties. Before the TC nerfs, I could take my Valiant-wielding SI and search for unknown/unknown/Gold matches and be reasonably assured of success. I was effective enough, alone, both in terms of damage (bosses still had weak spots, pre-TC sniper damage nerf) and in terms of utility (10 second cloaks of objective grabbin' fun, whoo) to be unconcerned about who I played with or their skill level. I could carry the team, and that was OK by me. It was FUN. It also let me jump in and play a game whenever I personally had 25ish minutes available, without having to be concerned about if my skilled friends were available. This was a GOOD THING.

It's also worth noting that I populated my ENTIRE Origin friends list with people I met through these random matches. Now, if you had an entire lobby of infiltrators did stuff get mowed down? Sure. Of course, pre-Krysae you had to actually aim to do it.

What is the point I'm trying to make? On release, multiplayer characters seemed to be designed with the intent that every class should be solo-viable. Unfortunately when this is the case, and you put 4 of them together with synergistic abilities/buffs/debuffs, SOMETIMES (not always!) this can trivialize the challenge otherwise offered in higher difficulties. This is exacerbated by the design of certain maps. 

Edit: Note that I am not arguing against balance.  But it's gone from "it's ok to have solo-viable classes on Gold, let's design for that" to "We have to make it so nobody can succeed on their own, only through synergistic teams."  With the focus on balance shifting to team effectiveness, if one or two players are sub-par the team fails.  Forcing team synergy and skill to succeed on Platinum - fine.  But team balance shouldn't be the goal on Gold and below.  Thus, since you cannot gauge skill AT ALL in lobbies (but wait, N7 rati- HAHAHAHAHA no) or control team comps, public games have mostly died out.  

I no longer play public matches with unknown players. And I know I'm far from alone here. My friends list has stagnated because if I step into an unknown lobby I stand a solid chance of losing my precious time, ammo, and equipment for effectively zero gain. I can't imagine what it would be like to come into this game NOW, new to Origin, and try to find skilled players. They're all playing private speedruns and/or farming... and I'm a perfect example.

tl;dr - Not only are these nerfs mortally wounding the metagame (e.g. I rarely see unknown enemies anymore on an unknown map, because Geth are far too cheap, and SR infils are an extinct race on Gold+) they are destroying the friendly community which was fostered earlier in ME3 Multiplayer's development. It is/was this environment which kept people involved, playing, and meeting new friends; this contributed more than the devs may realize to the success ME3 MP has enjoyed to date. I fear much of this has now been lost. 

Modifié par DarthVarner, 02 août 2012 - 05:02 .

[TheAdventurer29]

Yes but 'easy credits' is bad for business. At least they must show EA that they are trying to prevent that. U know EA is their boss.

[Ramsutin]

Good post OP, but it lacks some basic stuff:
-Bioware is aware of farmers, and therefore usually excludes FBW from their data collection
-I saw Typhoons everywhere before 1st nerf. The 1st nerf made sense, since when have LMGs had the same penetration as the most powerfull snipe rifle? After it I still saw many Typhoons. Haven't really played since so can't comment
- and Smash wasn't nerfed, they simply put it back to its original recharge speed
-minority plays on Gold/Plat, even less of them come here. The majority won't even notice the nerfs.

Modifié par Ramsutin, 02 août 2012 - 04:23 .

[Lambda_00]

DarthVarner wrote...

What is the point I'm trying to make? On release, multiplayer characters seemed to be designed with the intent that every class should be solo-viable. Unfortunately when this is the case, and you put 4 of them together with synergistic abilities/buffs/debuffs, SOMETIMES (not always!) this can trivialize the challenge otherwise offered in higher difficulties. This is exacerbated by the design of certain maps. 

Edit: Note that I am not arguing against balance.  But it's gone from "it's ok to have solo-viable classes on Gold, let's design for that" to "We have to make it so nobody can succeed on their own, only through synergistic teams."  With the focus on balance shifting to team effectiveness, if one or two players are sub-par the team fails.  Thus, since you cannot gauge skill AT ALL in lobbies (but wait N7 rati- HAHAHAHAHA no) or control team comps, public games have mostly died out. 

I no longer play public matches with unknown players. And I know I'm far from alone here. My friends list has stagnated because if I step into an unknown lobby I stand a solid chance of losing my precious time, ammo, and equipment for effectively zero gain. I can't imagine what it would be like to come into this game NOW, new to Origin, and try to find skilled players. They're all playing private speedruns and/or farming... and I'm a perfect example.

tl;dr - Not only are these nerfs mortally wounding the metagame (e.g. I rarely see unknown enemies anymore on an unknown map, because Geth are far too cheap, and SR infils are an extinct race on Gold+) they are destroying the friendly community which was fostered earlier in ME3 Multiplayer's development. It is/was this environment which kept people involved, playing, and meeting new friends; this contributed more than the devs may realize to the success ME3 MP has enjoyed to date. I fear much of this has now been lost. 

Thank you, so much for posting this.  I completely agree with all these points.
(btw, I think I remember playing a Gold [or Plat? or Silver?] with you and epic failing.  Sorry about that, it was an off day for me:crying:)

Modifié par Lambda_00, 02 août 2012 - 04:33 .

[cgtrfghj7]

bumpitty bumpitty bump bump

+100000

[wafflecannon02]

Kuriiiiiii wrote...

Here's what you do.

Played FBWGG in the last hour? You get half credits from that map.
Played it again in the last hour? Another quater taken off.

Played against Geth in the last hour? Half credits (If you play against cerberus or reapers the timer resets)

DIVERSITY!

I usually lurk, but I feel like I need to enter my opinion here. You are hitting on something. The fact is, no nerf will alter the game's economy. There will always be a way to farm, and farming is the best way to earn credits. 

So how should BioWare stop rampant farming if it's so important to them? It's actually simple. Farming usually requires the player to be on a specific map fighting a specific enemy. The experience bonus for going into a match not knowing the map or the enemy should be replaced with or supplanted by a credit bonus. If done right, farming would be made less profitable than playing the game normally.

However, this punishes players who play the game normally, but like to frequent certain maps or enemies. Of course, those players aren't experiencing much of  the game, and I fail to see how a specific map or enemy makes such a darastic difference - unless they're farming. The idea could use some work, but the concept of making farming less profitable than normal play is the only way to solve the problem.

[upinya slayin]

megabeast37215 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

the krysea infiltartor wasn't the 1st to solo platinum. I'm pretty sure he rocked a shotgun.

Bahroo was the first one to post a video of it here on BSN... just 2 hours after Earth DLC was available for download. He used a Krysae GI... and I still give him crap about it.

On topic: OP... very well stated.

i missed that. i thought specter was the 1st

[Jonathan Shepard]

MaltMilchek wrote...

Some good points, but what do you do? Bioware and EA make money from the packs, I know because I've bought packs, they will of course try to minimize the ease of which packs are distributed via credits instead of coin. I do agree that farmers will farm regardless, but I think they basically 'balance' or nerf anything that gets too popular and means people buy less packs - so you're right the 'obscure' builds are safe.

Ultimately the only thing that will make them change the way this works is when people lose interest, and most will, it's just that we're all after that special weapon/class that we strive to achieve. For me it's the Paladin, it's the one gun I want and can't seem to get. For others it might be as simple as the GI or a Destroyer.

Personally I would much rather pay for specific guns/classes that I like or want using micro-transactions, instead of RNG packs, instead of farming to get those. I reckon if you could just pay for what you wanted then farming wouldn't be as prevalent as it is. (like $5 a weapon for instance)

The thing is, I frequently do lose interest in playing the game without farming. Farming is actually much more fun, because I'm usually with a set of reliable team mates, rather than randoms who don't know that their Asari Adept should not be using a  Talon 1 and Krysae I. Or a Quarian Infiltrator using a GPSMG on Gold. It's just no fun when I consistently fail because of randoms not understanding what is and what is not effective in this game. Phoenix classes were already pretty squishy. The 8-sec base cooldown on Smash is a horrible death-knell to them, honestly. Sure, Smash still has its range and damage, but the long wind-up still kills it.

I paid $10 for some packs, and I got nothing that another 3 hours of play wouldn't have gotten me. I'm not going to pay another cent. $10 for a buggy-as-hell set of DLC's is more than BW deserves at this point, especially with how they're purposely making the game harder for everyone except the farmers, and many of the glitches that have existed since the demo are still here 5 months later. In fact, it's what has driven me to farm platinum! 

OP has eloquently articulated exactly why many players are moving to farm platinum. It's just not fun to play this game regularly with all of the nerfs, and unviable classes on Gold and Platinum. We literally have to resort to farming to succeed and unlock new items-- which might not even be the items we want! Paying for a /chance/ at the new items is a horrible idea, especially for new players who have little to nothing in their manifest. Farming is the quickest way for them to expand it in order to start playing the game normally. And most of the time, we're playing with straight level-20 characters, so extraction is pointless too. 

I seem to be rambling. Point I'm trying to make is: OP hit the nail on the head. 

EDIT: Wafflecannon02 has it right as well.

Modifié par Jonathan Shepard, 02 août 2012 - 04:39 .

[Vulture N7]

Flambirex wrote...

It's ironic that all the changes designed to eliminate farming are driving people towards farming, in order to 'beat the system'. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad for the players.

Best post anyone has made all week. Kudos sir

[Biotic_Warlock]

Nerf the wall of text!

All they have to do to stop farmers is take away that wall next to the cover... Problem solved!

[upinya slayin]

Ramsutin wrote...

Good post OP, but it lacks some basic stuff:
-Bioware is aware of farmers, and therefore usually excludes FBW from their data collection
-I saw Typhoons everywhere before 1st nerf. The 1st nerf made sense, since when have LMGs had the same penetration as the most powerfull snipe rifle? After it I still saw many Typhoons. Haven't really played since so can't comment
- and Smash wasn't nerfed, they simply put it back to its original recharge speed
-minority plays on Gold/Plat, even less of them come here. The majority won't even notice the nerfs.

isn't it common sense that when new weapons come out they will be used way more then the old weapons for the fact its a new toy to play with? i wouldn't look at stats of new weapons untill they've been out for at least 3-4 weeks before collecting stats on usage.

[Blind2Society]

Curzyfish wrote...

Are people really complaining about stomps? They should have been in gold / plat from the start.

No, they should have been removed from the game entirely from the start.

[DarthVarner]

Lambda_00 wrote...

DarthVarner wrote...

What is the point I'm trying to make? On release, multiplayer characters seemed to be designed with the intent that every class should be solo-viable. Unfortunately when this is the case, and you put 4 of them together with synergistic abilities/buffs/debuffs, SOMETIMES (not always!) this can trivialize the challenge otherwise offered in higher difficulties. This is exacerbated by the design of certain maps. 

Edit: Note that I am not arguing against balance.  But it's gone from "it's ok to have solo-viable classes on Gold, let's design for that" to "We have to make it so nobody can succeed on their own, only through synergistic teams."  With the focus on balance shifting to team effectiveness, if one or two players are sub-par the team fails.  Thus, since you cannot gauge skill AT ALL in lobbies (but wait N7 rati- HAHAHAHAHA no) or control team comps, public games have mostly died out. 

I no longer play public matches with unknown players. And I know I'm far from alone here. My friends list has stagnated because if I step into an unknown lobby I stand a solid chance of losing my precious time, ammo, and equipment for effectively zero gain. I can't imagine what it would be like to come into this game NOW, new to Origin, and try to find skilled players. They're all playing private speedruns and/or farming... and I'm a perfect example.

tl;dr - Not only are these nerfs mortally wounding the metagame (e.g. I rarely see unknown enemies anymore on an unknown map, because Geth are far too cheap, and SR infils are an extinct race on Gold+) they are destroying the friendly community which was fostered earlier in ME3 Multiplayer's development. It is/was this environment which kept people involved, playing, and meeting new friends; this contributed more than the devs may realize to the success ME3 MP has enjoyed to date. I fear much of this has now been lost. 

Thank you, so much for posting this.  I completely agree with all these points.
(btw, I think I remember playing a Gold [or Plat? or Silver?] with you and epic failing.  Sorry about that, it was an off day for me:crying:)

Unknown/Unknown/Gold resulted in London vs. Cerb?  That was a rare public match.  I was shaking off the dust from my SI.  The Valiant VI, once my favorite gun, is solid against mooks but outright bad against Phantoms... and needs nearly an entire ammo supply to go through an Atlas.  

[DarthVarner]

upinya slayin wrote...

Ramsutin wrote...

Good post OP, but it lacks some basic stuff:
-Bioware is aware of farmers, and therefore usually excludes FBW from their data collection
-I saw Typhoons everywhere before 1st nerf. The 1st nerf made sense, since when have LMGs had the same penetration as the most powerfull snipe rifle? After it I still saw many Typhoons. Haven't really played since so can't comment
- and Smash wasn't nerfed, they simply put it back to its original recharge speed
-minority plays on Gold/Plat, even less of them come here. The majority won't even notice the nerfs.

isn't it common sense that when new weapons come out they will be used way more then the old weapons for the fact its a new toy to play with? i wouldn't look at stats of new weapons untill they've been out for at least 3-4 weeks before collecting stats on usage.

We have a winner.

[Stinger14s]

I would have made the N7 Characters N7 Cards and left it alone. Made them extremely rare and hard to come by. BUT due to them being rare, I wouldn't Nerf them... some classes and weapons are better due TO Their rarity.

Modifié par Stinger14s, 02 août 2012 - 04:46 .

[Pacificsharp09]

If they do not want us farming why did they give us the demolisher?

[Pacificsharp09]

Astaiir wrote...

I actually don't get the farmers. Why farm?
You'll get the money and the items. Maybe it'll take more time, but you'll get it. It's just missing this game's point, to have fun. Spamming powers is dull. I actually hate spammers.
But, playing this game is much more fun than farming.

Because this game relies on having good weapons to do well. Skill is not nearly as important as having maxed out high end weapons. Farming allows me to get the high end weapons faster and thus have more fun. Farming is all about maximizing my potential and having fun.
If it is not fun for you then do not do it.