317 réponses à ce sujet

[.458]

I do highly wish that BW would give a better game selection menu. To perhaps select "any base but FB white", or "can be any base", or "must be random". Much of the farming issues would mean so little.

[Xaijin]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

Look, I've learned from the last couple of weeks that there is one, overpowering reason for nerfs in this game: that it has gotten too easy to farm a setup of a certain level/enemy setup and ergo allow players to get so-called "easy credits." Whilst FBWGG is the best-known example, it's far from the only one. In each case, the biggest and most obvious nerfs are mostly applied not out of genuine balance concerns, but rather to deal with characters and players farming with certain setups for the aforementioned "easy credits":

* The Quarian Female Infiltrator was among the first targets, since Sabotage and poor enemy coding meant that farming Geth on gold was comparatively easy. Sabotage has been fixed and re-fixed a half-a-dozen or so times now, and only now properly can be considered a good ability again.

* FBWGG was the most common farming setup (and still is). Geth got their infamously-awful mega-buff that resulted in Geth Rocket Machinegunners, stunproof Hunters that shoot whilst flying, and Pyros that shoot through walls, but it didn't stop farmers one bit.

* Geth Infiltrator was the most common "power" class used to farm due to versatility; Geth Hunter Mode got toned down, followed by all Infiltrators getting a blanket nerf to Tactical Cloak (a "fix," mind you, which can be argued accomplished little - DPS builds continued to go DPS, and support infiltrators got screwed with a 25% shorter duration, and, as most Infiltrators ran damage, the key offending builds continued to dominate).

* Missile Glitch and its fix. Nothing else need be said.

* Krysae was nerfed as it was the most common "power" weapon used to farm Platinum (indeed, the first players to Solo platinum did so with Krysae Infiltrators. Hell, the first players to beat Platinum were Krysae Infiltrators).

* Stomps on Gold and Platinum were specifically in response to players reliably clearing those difficulties.

* Typhoon was cut down in effectiveness twice consecutively, along with the main class that used it. The result is a gun that is only viable on the Destroyer and became utterly pointless on the other power-light and cooldown-immune classes that could cram it on, such as Quarian Engineer, Krogan Soldier/Sentinel, Demolisher, Human/BF3 Soldier, and so on.

* Smash was nerfed specifically due to players spamming it on Firebase Glacier for Platinum runs (source: Bioware Staff).

I appreciate that this is being done with the interest in trying to keep some level of control over rampant farming, but the simple fact is that - Krysae nerfs aside - the bulk of these hit the community infinitely harder than it did the actual Farmers. More to the point, these nerfs have not done anything to curb farming whatsoever. On top of this, we are now entering a metagame wherein balance fixes are being performed around the farmers, and not the actual playerbase, and that, to put it simply, is lunacy. Does anyone here honestly think that players who were farming Glacier with Smash are really that plussed that Smash got nerf-batted in response to their antics? No, they'll mutter a bit, and go looking for some other way to endlessly farm easy credits to max out their manifests.

The sad thing is that this has been going on for months, and explains literally every questionable balance decision that has been made in regards to this game.

Let us journey back to the early days of ME3, where Sabotage was widely considered the easiest way to farm Gold. When the Female Quarian Infiltrator's ability was nerfed, this did not dissuade players from using the Quarian Infiltrator to farm, since she was still fairly effective if used right, but her use tapered off in favor of other Infiltrators.

Geth remained popular, however, for farmers, because they did not have the bullsquid that was instant kills, nor did they throw psychic invisible grenades that wipe parties out and have perfect accuracy. What resulted was teams of veteran players farming Gold using whatever tactics they could find: Clustering on Firebase Glacier, bunkerstorm on Firebase Ghost, the desks at Firebase White. Later, the Geth were buffed dramatically (and many would argue game-breakingly) specifically in response to players farming them on Gold.

The point is that this is endless carrot-and-stick chasing. Players are going to farm - so long as this game uses this enfuriatingly, widely-documented-as-poorly-designed store system with all of its infinitely complained-about problems, people are going to actively seek out the most efficient, utilitarian way to secure easy credits and get things unlocked. This is human nature at its finest, and it's a testament to ME3's enjoyability that the game has endured despite this. I understand that slowing this down, at least, is a priority, since players getting credits the proper way means less people purchasing magic space points, but in the end, there's a very basic question to ask about these fixes:

Who is suffering more when a weapon or ability is made less-viable, the Farmers, or the actual Players?

The answer is abundantly clear: It's the players. From the newbie who, against all odds, gets a shiny ouchie-bang-splat ultra rare in his very first Premium Spectre Pack - only to find that weapon considerably less shiny once the weekly balance fix gives it a righteous kick in the scrote, to the veterans who are farting around on Silver with a few friends, it is the bulk of the playerbase, and, most assuredly, not the Farmers, who form the lifeblood of this game, and who, ultimately, will suffer the most when a weapon, ability, or class is nerfed into oblivion. This is not to say that occasionally, fixes are not necessary - The Missile Glitch fix was a long time coming, and I challenge anyone to tell me that the Krysae was anything but a godlessly powerful rape-cannon when it was first released.

A friend of mine (who happens to be amongst the highest-ranked N7 players in the world) once chimed in and said that this current cycle of basing fixes on weakening farming methodologies, no matter how much it nerfs and destroys, will never, ever, at any point in time, be successful. His reasoning is both logical and concise - not only will the playerbase continue to find methods that work to reliably gain easy credits, but there are literally over a dozen relatively obscure setups that are more than capable of reliably handling any difficulty or situation and which, due to their obscurity, are as likely to be nerfed as Commander Sheperd is to die of natural causes. More than this, team skill will always be a factor - players who can coordinatre and work well with others will always find ways to make it through, even if they have to fight naked and armed with the projectile weapon equivalent of nerf bats, and they will find a way to reliably extract credits doing so.

This cycle of fixes focused on Farming methodologies, rather than actual need, has got to stop. If a build or the like is overpowered, by all means, deal with it - but nerfing things into oblivion specifically because they were effective at things has got to cease - especially because, all-too-often, these so-called fixes are poorly-implemented and break more than they fix.

A good example is the Typhoon - once an excellent weapon for literally ALL power-light and cooldown-immune classes, like the Krogan Soldier/Sentinel, Quarian Engineer, and more, it is now pretty much only remotely viable on the N7 Destroyer. This is extremely bad design and totally counter-intuitive. After the last "fix," no one was clamoring for the Typhoon to be made less-efficient than the Phaeston on several classes.

There are other, infinitely more pressing things that need to be worked on, that are a dozen times more important and pressing to this game reaching its full potential than a bunch of pissants farming Platinum due to Glacier's horrible map design (something not the players' fault no less). The game is plagued with underpowered, dead-end gear, weapons, and class options, and the bulk of the playerbase would love nothing more than bringing these to the point where they're actually viable. Fixing bugs and improving class viability should be a huge priority, and there is a giant stack of them to fix, but it hasn't been done yet (as much due to QA testing as anything else, but the last "fix" didn't improve any of the bugs on-record for months either, so frankly, the point still stands).

Focus on the players. Not the farmers. The farmers aren't the ones who are getting hurt by handling the metagame this way.

Finally some common sense.

Also the new go to class isn't Phoenix, it's Demolishers, which haven't even been touched yet.

The point you haven't addressed though, is why.

The very simple answer to that is farmers hurt EAs bottom line and BW's performance earning potential. So instead of trying to entice new customers with new content and classes which are expensive, we are saddled with ME2 recycles and clever use of pre-existing designs.

As much as you make sense, BW is simply not going to ignore the finanacial basis of this game existing in the first place, especially now that it is the primary source of ME related income.

It's just not going to happen. The suits run the show, and they don't give a rat's ass about gameplay. They do give a rat's ass about monthly ledgers.

Modifié par Xaijin, 02 août 2012 - 07:26 .

[DarthVarner]

Dama733 wrote...

ChemicalGenocide wrote...

Let's face it, most of the player base is biding their time till Borderlands 2, Halo 4, and Black Ops 2 comes out. With changes that ****** off the player base coming more frequently they will have to do something by November to keep people playing, otherwise this multiplayer will probably resemble a 'ghost town'.

Agreed, the only thing Bioware is doing right now is giving their playerbase more incentive to jump games come Fall, with the constant nerfing and enemy Buffs the majority of players are going to activly seek out a more enjoyable game, and lets face it the more a player enjoys a game the more they are willing to keep playing it, and Bioware are making the multiplayer less enjoyable for alot of players.

But it comes down to a simple fact...  Bioware simply doesn't Care.

I think they do care.  I think they (or some of them) are or will probably read this.  I just think live balancing this stuff is a new challenge for the ME3 team, and they're learning.

Look at Blizzard, specifically the evolution of WoW.  Early on - balance changes nerfing niche builds with large unintended consequences, fairly low communication with the playerbase, and other such parallels.  They came an immensely long way from that point. 

Now, I don't expect ME3 MP to have the staying power of WoW.  But the parallels are there.  And posts like yours encourage potential Bioware posters NOT to post or participate in the community.  

Let's keep it positive in this thread.  The OP set the tone and there's a great amount of good info in here already.

[curly haired boy]

....bioware could just patch firebase white in any number of the free DLC updates that release new content.

but noooooo.

[Ravenguild]

Farmers ARE the player base if you think that most of the player base is not farming then u have ur head up ur ass. Thats the whole reason why finding a non farming match is a ****. So bioware IS balancing around the farmers.

[Dama733]

DarthVarner wrote...

Dama733 wrote...

ChemicalGenocide wrote...

Let's face it, most of the player base is biding their time till Borderlands 2, Halo 4, and Black Ops 2 comes out. With changes that ****** off the player base coming more frequently they will have to do something by November to keep people playing, otherwise this multiplayer will probably resemble a 'ghost town'.

Agreed, the only thing Bioware is doing right now is giving their playerbase more incentive to jump games come Fall, with the constant nerfing and enemy Buffs the majority of players are going to activly seek out a more enjoyable game, and lets face it the more a player enjoys a game the more they are willing to keep playing it, and Bioware are making the multiplayer less enjoyable for alot of players.

But it comes down to a simple fact...  Bioware simply doesn't Care.

I think they do care.  I think they (or some of them) are or will probably read this.  I just think live balancing this stuff is a new challenge for the ME3 team, and they're learning.

Look at Blizzard, specifically the evolution of WoW.  Early on - balance changes nerfing niche builds with large unintended consequences, fairly low communication with the playerbase, and other such parallels.  They came an immensely long way from that point. 

Now, I don't expect ME3 MP to have the staying power of WoW.  But the parallels are there.  And posts like yours encourage potential Bioware posters NOT to post or participate in the community.  

Let's keep it positive in this thread.  The OP set the tone and there's a great amount of good info in here already.

I may have been a bit harsh with my previous post, and for that Bioware I apologise.
I have been a long time fan of Mass Effect since the first game was released, and I genuinely enjoy this game. I just find this whole issue very frustrating.

[someN7orother]

@OP:

Good read. Good points and suggestions in there. Sadly, it's simply cheaper and more convenient to tweak things server-side every week than work on a complete overhaul of the store system and re-evaluate the gameplay with actual balance in mind. Which is why ME3MP will never evolve past being but an afterthought to the rather lackluster conclusion of an otherwise excellent saga. And all because... MONEY!

I was fairly critical of doomsayers when Bioware became BioEA, but frankly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to give them my money, or what's even more valuable to me, my time. There are far less frustrating entertainment alternatives where respect to the customer base is still a priority.

Again, good read.

[JGDD]

someN7orother wrote...

I'm becoming less and less inclined to give them my money, or what's even more valuable to me, my time

Judging by the last weekend event you are not alone in that regard. 133K~ users qualified for a comm pack. For context: Out of how many millions of game copies sold? Four months in and the game has lost a lot its shine for many it seems.

[COLZ7R]

Anyone else find it strange the normal pro nerffers are avoiding this thread?
I aint, its the most sense thats been said on this bloody forum since the nerffing frenzy started

[CenturyCrow]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...


The point is that this is endless carrot-and-stick chasing. Players are going to farm - so long as this game uses this enfuriatingly, widely-documented-as-poorly-designed store system with all of its infinitely complained-about problems, people are going to actively seek out the most efficient, utilitarian way to secure easy credits and get things unlocked. This is human nature at its finest, and it's a testament to ME3's enjoyability that the game has endured despite this.

The crux of it.

The level 4 ammo just makes it worse.

[Tankcommander]

Kuriiiiiii wrote...

Here's what you do.

Played FBWGG in the last hour? You get half credits from that map.
Played it again in the last hour? Another quater taken off.

Played against Geth in the last hour? Half credits (If you play against cerberus or reapers the timer resets)

DIVERSITY!

That's not a bad idea. Discourages farming and hopefully allows Bioware to fix the issues brought up in this thread.

Seriously, Geth. I remember, faintly, a day where they were fun to fight and didn't seem to cheat even the fundamental laws of physics.

[DarthVarner]

End-of-workday bump, since this is far more useful and constructive than nearly everything on the MP forum's first page right now.

[brblx]

Every single level can be 'farmed.' As in, there is a place that is the most efficient area to defend, and there are a variety of class combinations that work best to kill certain enemies in the given space.

Playing 'normally' isn't really 'anti-farming' as much as it is literally doing something the hardest way possible. Most good random/random/gold lobbies still end up as 'farming' according to most peoples' definition, as the players are automatically going to gravitate towards the most effective strategies.

I vote Bioware nerf teamwork. That'll stop people and their blasted farming.

[kingvenom41392]

 to be honest ive done glacier with smash for awhile gold platinum whatever sometimes i solo difficulties with jsut the smash character if there was a nerf i hardly noticed it andf the bioware staff is a bunch of half drunk half retarded monkeys constantly throwing feces in hope that some other poop flingers will enjoy there sport

[Volatile Device]

Flambirex wrote...

It's ironic that all the changes designed to eliminate farming are driving people towards farming, in order to 'beat the system'. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad for the players.

It's what happened to me. I was a Silver player when the Geth began getting the ridiculous buffs. I never played Gold before, so it still had the "omg scary highest difficulty" novelty feeling.

Played FBWGG for the first time, kicking Geth butt in revenge for how annoying they became on Silver. I improved my skill, weapons, and such to become a good player on FBWGG and Gold in general, and never looked back.

Hell, half the time I still just play FBWGG.

[Mendelevosa]

Exactly. Bioware balance things to try to decrease farming, but all that happens is non-farmers get punished and farmers either adapt to the changes or find news ways to farm.

[BoomDynamite]

Agreed.

[ManBearPigIets]

Pretty much agreed. I read through the thread and saw some great ideas I would love to see, I hope they at least spark the interest in BW to investigate the potential of those ideas.

I'd rather they focus on fixing multiplayer bugs like objectives falling through maps and the vanguard glitch before even thinking of balance changes that do nothing but hurt non-farmers.

Modifié par ManBearPigIets, 02 août 2012 - 11:09 .

[Shotgun Nova]

+1

Farmers are keen to get the "bee-knees" in credits, knowing only one thing in mind. "At the end of the day, it's only the gold we care about." Every balance change can be either a godsend or another crushing blow to a particular player. All in all, they need to sweep up the broken pieces and fix the broken object. It's going to be a large mess with the farming antic..

[Zero 2362]

dysturbed0ne wrote...

What is obvious to BW are the number of people they see playing the game and making purchases. They know exactly what affect their changes have on the player base. Having a dozen or so irritated people here does not mean anything if it doesn't show up in the overall numbers, and it seems they are pretty happy with what they are seeing. So while the problems with the game seem like such a huge deal here, it obviously isn't significant enough in the big picture.

If BW truly fixed farming (which I don't even think is possible), they would loose a huge amount of players out of shear frustration.

Have you ever noticed an area in your town that has a high crime rate? Have you ever thought, damn, if the cops would just saturate that area they could clean it up, and you would be correct. In reality though, you haven't really done anything but move it from there to somewhere else. At least before you knew where the problem was and you could contain it, now that you cleaned up that area you have to start over and figure out where the new problem area is going to be.

I'm sure BW is fully aware of the problem of FBW, but they also know if they fix it people will just figure out something else. Right now they can compile their statistics and adjust them based off what they know regarding FBW. Fix it and they would have to start over.

Your absolutly right. The only way to get BW to listen is for everyone to stop playing the game altogether.

To be honest with these massive nerfs ill probably loose interest in the game soon anyway out of frustration

[jfruelas521]

Long read but you are right on the money. Bump for more views.

[Zero 2362]

I used to play Halo Reach. I moved on to ME3 a couple of months ago. I used to enjoy the game and spent my time here instead of reach. Unfortunately I have found the nerfs so jarring and mindbogglingly overdone that it has made this game less about having fun and more about finding a less frustrating way to play. If there is another large overdone nerf I will likely go back to reach. its a shame Bioware dosent put as much importance on the fanbase as Bungie does.They may not run Halo anymore but they made some fine games and listend to what we had to say.

[Xaijin]

Zero 2362 wrote...

dysturbed0ne wrote...

What is obvious to BW are the number of people they see playing the game and making purchases. They know exactly what affect their changes have on the player base. Having a dozen or so irritated people here does not mean anything if it doesn't show up in the overall numbers, and it seems they are pretty happy with what they are seeing. So while the problems with the game seem like such a huge deal here, it obviously isn't significant enough in the big picture.

If BW truly fixed farming (which I don't even think is possible), they would loose a huge amount of players out of shear frustration.

Have you ever noticed an area in your town that has a high crime rate? Have you ever thought, damn, if the cops would just saturate that area they could clean it up, and you would be correct. In reality though, you haven't really done anything but move it from there to somewhere else. At least before you knew where the problem was and you could contain it, now that you cleaned up that area you have to start over and figure out where the new problem area is going to be.

I'm sure BW is fully aware of the problem of FBW, but they also know if they fix it people will just figure out something else. Right now they can compile their statistics and adjust them based off what they know regarding FBW. Fix it and they would have to start over.

Your absolutly right. The only way to get BW to listen is for everyone to stop playing the game altogether.

To be honest with these massive nerfs ill probably loose interest in the game soon anyway out of frustration

Judging by the steadily shrinking playerbase, cause and effect are pretty cleanly linked in this instance.

[ajburges]

+1

Give us proper filters and the normal player won't know about farming.

[.458]

Thread on map filters:
http://social.biowar.../index/13481870