317 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic_Warlock]

8 pages and nobody said.



But the priiiiiize.

[tfoltz]

LeandroBraz wrote...

I won't read this wall, but I got it, you are saying all the balance decisions is being affected by farmers. Bioware already told that they have ways to filter the farming stuffs, getting info without it being counted, so no, the balance change is not being affected by farming, at least not in the level you are trying to show in your wall.

And yet the balancing decisions are clearly geared toward farming, so you are wrong.

"...at least not in the level you are trying to show in your wall."  But you didn't read his wall, so how would you know?

[DarthVarner]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

FBWGG is still untouched.

FBWGG gets a lot of flak for what it is, but people seem to religiously forget that FBWGG is a symptom and not the disease: FBW is a map with specific funnel-points that lends itself well to farming simply due to how the AI works, and Geth for all their overpowered "I can shoot you when launched into the air by OneTrueShot's Lift Grenade" crap, are about as tactically-intelligent as a box of rocks.

It's worth noting that the former problem - FBW's design, which is designed specifically to encourage close-quarters combat - is something that the Devs have tried to fix with the newer maps - Vancouver and Jade have extremely little "Hard" cover, Condor and Goddess have kill-points that are specifically designed to be taken by enemies, rather than players, and Hydra and Rio both have way too many locations that enemies can funnel through.

This is why almost none of the new maps have terrain you can grab over (for example).

I would be reluctantly OK with this design if they hadn't nearly done a 180 degree turn from the release maps.  I like the release maps; even Dagger has plenty of cover and tactics.  The new ones since are massive, have endless sight lines, and as you say nearly no hard cover.  Here's an earlier post in this thread talking about my opinions of this new map design.  

Popping up and sniping something or casting - fine.  Popping up and getting instantly dead due to Primes, Rocket Troopers, Marauders/Centurians, Ravagers, Atlases, or Phantoms with perfect aim instantly bombarding you from 5 different places on the map is not fine, but this is precisely the situation on newer maps like Rio.

You may be right and this 'design change' may be due to trying to prevent farming on new maps.  But to continue the OP's thesis: it fails at preventing camping/farming, while doing significant harm to players attempting to enjoy the game.

[OhPa2]

I agree with the OP.  Nerfing farming does not help the game.  New maps and challenges do.  Buff the game and consider all of the player base.

[Oz not Ozzy]

steverw1975 wrote...

These are the things that farmers will just shrug, and move on to the next tactic that helps them bypass the problems and profit, but that will (sooner or later) encourage the players with genuine love for the game to move on to something else.

TL:DR version:
Farmers gonna farm, no matter what you do to discourage them. Messing it up for the rest of the player base and not fixing the horrendous glitches that have been there since day one is what's really eating into the profit margin.

Ok, this crosses a line in my book. It's bad enough when people pull an attitude and look down their noses at other players as if they're somehow elite, but acting like you're one of the select few that actually appreciates the game is a bit much. Really, do you think people who farm do it just to farm? Did you ever think that maybe they do it to earn credits so they can get characters/weapons/gear/equipment that they can use to do more in a game they enjoy playing? If anything, I'd say that people who spend a lot of time farming perhaps love the game too much. You don't spend that kind of time grinding for gear if you don't care about the game.

Errr... okay... that interpretation of what I said was not intentional, but upon reflection I can see how it read that way and I apologise for it, so please allow me to clarify:

"Did you ever think that maybe they do it to earn credits so they can get characters/weapons/gear/equipment that they can use to do more in a game they enjoy playing?"

Don't get me wrong, I did a lot of farming in the past, for pretty much that reason. In fact, I still use stereotypical 'farming runs' in order to level characters after promoting so I am, in no way, trying to be elitist and 'put down' those that do so.

Also, in no way, am I trying to say that only a "select few" actually appreciate the game... quite the opposite in fact, because my own personal experience has lead me to discover many players on XBL with a genuine love for the game, but that most of those I talk to about the balance changes and so forth are getting seriously annoyed, not only with having to make almost constant adjustments to their choice of character classes, builds and/or loadouts because of all these 'balance changes', but also having to consistently work around glitches that still haven't been fixed some five months after release.

Some of them have already got P.O.'d enough to trade in their game, others have done it because the vast majority of their f-list did and they couldn't face playing in PUGs any more and others still are just playing until that game they've been looking forward to is released next week/month/whenever.

Modifié par Oz not Ozzy, 03 août 2012 - 03:14 .

[Red Panda]

Flambirex wrote...

It's ironic that all the changes designed to eliminate farming are driving people towards farming, in order to 'beat the system'. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad for the players.

Even nerfed, 4 salarian engineers with decoy can literally outwit anything.

[Red Panda]

You can farm Rio from the LZ.

All the enemies come down two pathways.

[gilgamesh v9]

agreed. trying to buff/nerf things isnt the way to stop farmers

[DarklighterFreak]

Agree, totally, farmers gonna farm, no matter what. Deal with it. And now, plz stop screwing the playerbase.

[Beezilbub]

Sweet Baby Jesus, I hope Bioware is reading this one. This post perfectly encapsulates everything I've been feeling about the game I love and the game that really frustrates me.

[kwndc]

I agree with EVERYTHING the OP wrote.

Being a casual player that has occasionally been in farming matches, the dynamics of them are wrolds apart. Playing for fun starts feeling like a futile endeavor with nerf ball guns and ultimate enemies everywhere.

I suspect that the majority of players don't even read these forums and therefore wonder what all the fuss over nerfs/buffs is all about, and then alsowonder what the heck happened totheir favorite weapons/powers when they don't work the same as they once did.

[Strict31]

 Farming is a motivation. It is not a tangible thing that can be targeted and punched in the balls. Farming can take place on any map against any enemy using any characters. Until you can combat the motivation behind farming, you cannot hope to combat the practice of farming.

It's like a doctor targeting the symptoms of a disease instead of the cause of the disease. It's like Superman wasting his time catching bullets all day instead of crushing the gun that is firing those bullets.

It is not logical.

With that said, are we certain that these nerfs are motivated by Bioware's desire to stop farming? I mean, do we have direct evidence or perhaps a direct quote from a Bioware employee saying something to that effect? I ask because a conclusion without evidence; a premise without support beyond supposition is also not logical.

I bring this up because fishing through 9+ pages is time consuming, and I've got matches to farm--

...er...um...play through. Yes. That's it.

[Oich]

First off, great OP, totally agree.

As for some recent posts, I got the impression that this was NOT a farmer vs. anti-farmer topic. All he's asking is that they stop balancing around farmers since it has yet to appreciably deter farmers. It has, however, made the game appreciably harder/more annoying (geth) for non-farmers.

[COLZ7R]

@strict31
Aint found any direct proof about biowares motivation for the nerffs but in the infamous tc nerff they stated infs were ok on bronze/silver and the problem lay in gold.
If the forum goers are to be believed( in this case i kinda do) 70-80% of random gold matches are fbwgg farming runs where infs were the main go to class. so that kinda points us in the direction that the nerff was brought about by farming.
If as some have said bioware discount farming matches in their "balancing act" then all they look at for balance is 20% of the least used difficulty, where the "elite" play!
Either way its a terrible way to balance a game

[.458]

OhPa2 wrote...

I agree with the OP.  Nerfing farming does not help the game.  New maps and challenges do.  Buff the game and consider all of the player base.

+1

[puldalpha]

www.youtube.com/watch

I'll leave this here...

[Strict31]

COLZ7R wrote...

@strict31
Aint found any direct proof about biowares motivation for the nerffs but in the infamous tc nerff they stated infs were ok on bronze/silver and the problem lay in gold.
If the forum goers are to be believed( in this case i kinda do) 70-80% of random gold matches are fbwgg farming runs where infs were the main go to class. so that kinda points us in the direction that the nerff was brought about by farming.
If as some have said bioware discount farming matches in their "balancing act" then all they look at for balance is 20% of the least used difficulty, where the "elite" play!
Either way its a terrible way to balance a game

I do agree that it is a terrible way to balance the game either way.

I had started thinking several days ago that of course farming was the motivation for so many of the nerfs we've seen because they don't make sense otherwise. Specifically, the Smash nerf. As you all probably know, Smash was buffed a month or so before it was nerfed. This initial buff seemed to come in response to the many complaints at the time that the Cerb Adept/Vanguard's Smash power made him too vulnerable to harm to be used effectively. The Cooldown buff allowed players to use it more quickly if you had to Smash-Cancel, to get out of trouble.

So, I wondered, what the f*ck had changed in a month of playing?

Then, I noticed a lot of people using the Cerb characters in Platinum runs, in conjunction with other Biotics to string BEs together and do ungodly amounts of damage in very short order. I don't know if I'd call these types of runs "farming", but I suppose some would. And I imagine the tactic could be used specifically for farming.

And when I made that connection, I was all, "EUREKA, b*tches!"

It seems clear to me, but at the same time, it's all inference and supposition on my part. I think that's BW's motivation for the nerf, but I have no evidence to support it beyond a theory that seems to make sense. I don't want to jump to a conclusion that may suffer from a lack of key information.

Which is why I ask.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

puldalpha wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

I'll leave this here...

....And noble Puldalpha shows us why EA earned its worst company of 2012 title.

Also nicely shows off why the majority of the game-playing public would enjoy seeing EA's CEO strapped to a wall and shot with a Geth Javelin Rifle.

[.458]

DarklighterFreak wrote...

Agree, totally, farmers gonna farm, no matter what. Deal with it. And now, plz stop screwing the playerbase.

Also agreed. But, here's a thread with mockup (just updated) on how to make things easy for everyone:
http://social.biowar.../index/13481870

Image:
http://social.biowar...481870#13484597

[tfoltz]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

I'll leave this here...

....And noble Puldalpha shows us why EA earned its worst company of 2012 title.

Also nicely shows off why the majority of the game-playing public would enjoy seeing EA's CEO strapped to a wall and shot with a Geth Javelin Rifle.

Fun follow-up: EA in a Nutshell

[taomang]

I hope that someone actually reads the part where all these "fixes" didn't really stop or lower farming rates.

[puldalpha]

tfoltz wrote...

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

I'll leave this here...

....And noble Puldalpha shows us why EA earned its worst company of 2012 title.

Also nicely shows off why the majority of the game-playing public would enjoy seeing EA's CEO strapped to a wall and shot with a Geth Javelin Rifle.

Fun follow-up: EA in a Nutshell

Thank you for showing me that video, very funny & now bookmarked.

[Blarg]

Good points, and I couldn't agree more. The trick is getting Bioware to recognize, and furthermore act on this thread.

[.458]

taomang wrote...

I hope that someone actually reads the part where all these "fixes" didn't really stop or lower farming rates.

Better yet, it did not improve their image or profits. Player base did not improve, word of mouth advertisement did not improve (certainly got worse), and all commercial goals went a step further away.

[Impulse and Compulse]

BongMong wrote...
 Secondly, if you want good weapons and can't afford to spend money on packs daily, then you have to farm. Mainly because if you don't get the new-release good weapons very quickly they'll be nerfed to bits before you see them playing normally for credits.

Nerfing like this is the reason people feel they must farm.

So much truth in the part I underlined. It's always a race to get the good stuff, I consider myself lucky to have gotten to try the Krysea before they nerfed it harder than the Falcon.

And in case anybody from Bioware/EA reads this thread: let me make this clear.

I will never buy one of your ridiculous packs with real money. It's simply mind-blowing how you can charge so much for something that costs you literally nothing, and gives us almost quite literally nothing. Even if you completely remove boosting by nerfing everything, there still won't be anybody who wants to buy one of your ripoff packs. You would have to significantly lower the price of the packs, like into the cents values (something I understand you guys are incapable of fathoming, but it would make them actually have more value than the two-week-old hamburger helper in my fridge), or drastically improve what we get out of them. Could you imagine how much people would freak if you gave us a guaranteed N7 weapon in each paid pack? Now THAT would garner some attention.