304 réponses à ce sujet

[KyreneZA]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Math Effect wrote...

You mean Old Man Anderson who was too old to join your crew in ME2 but decides to join the Beam Blitz with no helmet and minimal armor?

Yeah that's a can of worms I don't wish to open...

He seemed in pretty good condition to be able to stay ahead of Shepard during the entire Vancouver mission. 

He's probably as/more indoctrinated as/than Shepard by the time Shepard physically meets up with him again:
* No rational leader in his position would lead such a suicidal charge.
* How long did ME3 take in in-universe time? All that time spent on a Reaper occupied planet and he doesn't get indoctrinated?

[Restrider]

TJBartlemus wrote...

demersel wrote...

No. The beam wasn't the mission. Getting into the citadel was the mission.

Which they thought getting to the beam would be a "back door" in a sense. That plan makes no sense though. It is practically the biggest / brightest thing in London. The Reapers had to know that they would try to get to it. That's why I stand by that the beam is a trap. Imagine it as a giant electric fly swatter. 

This is supported by the scene at the FOB, where EDI states that the Reapers are holding back their forces without any reason.
This is never explained in the game (yet).

[Seival]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Seival wrote...

The thread was reported as IT-related.

You were asked to discuss anything IT-related in groups, remember?

WNT =/= IT. There are major differences between the two, which you would know if you had read the first page.

I read OP before comment of course. This is the same "Destroy-is-the-only-right-choice-IT-propaganda" in slightly different perspective. As the IT, this theory is not about indoctrination or some other Reaper tricks, it's about placing Destroy on top of all other endings. This theory conflicts with one of the main ending concepts (there is no perfect ending - there are three different ways to stop the Cycles, and one way to let Reapers to continue the Cycles).

Please, do not ignore the following advice. Ask moderators to move the thread to fan-fiction section of the forums. Only this may prevent the theory from following IT footsteps.

Modifié par Seival, 08 janvier 2013 - 11:58 .

[Restrider]

Please stop derailing the thread, Seival.

Modifié par Restrider, 08 janvier 2013 - 12:18 .

[Seival]

Restrider wrote...

Please stop derailing the thread, Seival.

Please, stop derailing the forums, ITers.

[KyreneZA]

Seival wrote...

I read OP before comment of course. This is the same "Destroy-is-the-only-right-choice-IT-propaganda" in slightly different perspective. As the IT, this theory is not about indoctrination or some other Reaper tricks, it's about placing Destroy on top of all other endings. This theory conflicts with one of the main ending concepts (there is no perfect ending - there are three different ways to stop the Cycles, and one way to let Reapers to continue the Cycles).

Please, do not ignore the following advice. Ask moderators to move the thread to fan-fiction section of the forums. Only this may prevent the theory from following IT footsteps.

So what if (indeed; to me it seems that lately the middle--AKA green--option is the one being highlighted) it advocates one ending above others, isn't that exactly what you do too?

You are a sad and pathetic person. All this bullying and trolling you do sure makes it seem like you have some real life troubles spilling over into these fora. Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate why you have this obsession? Or drink more Vodka...

[Math Effect]

TJBartlemus wrote...

demersel wrote...

No. The beam wasn't the mission. Getting into the citadel was the mission.

Which they thought getting to the beam would be a "back door" in a sense. That plan makes no sense though. It is practically the biggest / brightest thing in London. The Reapers had to know that they would try to get to it. That's why I stand by that the beam is a trap. Imagine it as a giant electric fly swatter. 

I agree the Beam was a trap.  But traps are often dual-natured, and just because it could likely function as an indoctrination device does NOT mean it can't also function as a Conduit to the Citadel.

Take Ackbar's famous line in Star Wars.  Endor was a Trap, but the Rebel Alliance still pulled through in the end.

[Math Effect]

Seival wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Seival wrote...

The thread was reported as IT-related.

You were asked to discuss anything IT-related in groups, remember?

WNT =/= IT. There are major differences between the two, which you would know if you had read the first page.

I read OP before comment of course. This is the same "Destroy-is-the-only-right-choice-IT-propaganda" in slightly different perspective. As the IT, this theory is not about indoctrination or some other Reaper tricks, it's about placing Destroy on top of all other endings. This theory conflicts with one of the main ending concepts (there is no perfect ending - there are three different ways to stop the Cycles, and one way to let Reapers to continue the Cycles).

Please, do not ignore the following advice. Ask moderators to move the thread to fan-fiction section of the forums. Only this may prevent the theory from following IT footsteps.

The only reason this thread is even on the frontpage within the last month is because of my recent submission, which does not advocate Destroy.

And I am egotistical enough to believe I can convince every WNTer to agree with me, so there shouldn't be any problems.

[TJBartlemus]

Seival wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

Seival wrote...

The thread was reported as IT-related.

You were asked to discuss anything IT-related in groups, remember?

WNT =/= IT. There are major differences between the two, which you would know if you had read the first page.

I read OP before comment of course. This is the same "Destroy-is-the-only-right-choice-IT-propaganda" in slightly different perspective. As the IT, this theory is not about indoctrination or some other Reaper tricks, it's about placing Destroy on top of all other endings. This theory conflicts with one of the main ending concepts (there is no perfect ending - there are three different ways to stop the Cycles, and one way to let Reapers to continue the Cycles).

Please, do not ignore the following advice. Ask moderators to move the thread to fan-fiction section of the forums. Only this may prevent the theory from following IT footsteps.

 First off, where in the WNT does it say that Destroy is the "only right choice"? If anything I would think the impression that WNT leaves is that Refuse is a better choice. WNT is about that the Reapers are influencing Shepard's perceptions. How they are is assumed to be indoctrination. No where in the theory does it state that any choice is above the others. So your point is invalid and quite ignorant. 

[Argolas]

I can't believe this. Waking Nightmare Theory is NOT Indoctrination Theory, this is NOT the IT thread, and for all I understand, the IT thread was NOT locked for the reasons you are pointing out here, Seival, so learn to respect other interpretations that your own and stop trolling.

[TJBartlemus]

Math Effect wrote...

I agree the Beam was a trap.  But traps are often dual-natured, and just because it could likely function as an indoctrination device does NOT mean it can't also function as a Conduit to the Citadel.

Take Ackbar's famous line in Star Wars.  Endor was a Trap, but the Rebel Alliance still pulled through in the end.

I completely agree with that.  Nice reference too.

[demersel]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Math Effect wrote...

I agree the Beam was a trap.  But traps are often dual-natured, and just because it could likely function as an indoctrination device does NOT mean it can't also function as a Conduit to the Citadel.

Take Ackbar's famous line in Star Wars.  Endor was a Trap, but the Rebel Alliance still pulled through in the end.

I completely agree with that.  Nice reference too.

Actually yes. That is my interpretation as well. The beam is a trap. London is a trap. The earth is a trap. The whole SOL system is a trap. The Crucible is a trap. The Citadel is deffinitly a trap. The whole relay network is one huge trap. You are ALLOWED to build the crucible. You are ALLOWED to gather all the forces of the Galaxy, and all the leaders, and DELIVER them right into the hands of the reapers. The whole ME3 plot is trap. But that doesn't matter. You do it anyway - and go right into the trap - and prevail. Exactly the way it happens in the Return of the Jedi. 

Side note: Everyone hates on the ewoks there. I think it is unjestified. The idea that the BIG ALMIGHTY EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE in the end was brought down by a bunch of fluffy teddybears with spears and bows is a beautifull one. It adds insult to the injury. (that is actually a very prevalent theme in Return of the Jedi - case and point - Boby Fett, the ultimate badass bountyhunter). And i feel that this is exaclty the thing that must happen to the reapers. We should fuскing smash them with rocks. HUGE, trown at FTL speeds, rocks. 

[TJBartlemus]

demersel wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Math Effect wrote...

I agree the Beam was a trap.  But traps are often dual-natured, and just because it could likely function as an indoctrination device does NOT mean it can't also function as a Conduit to the Citadel.

Take Ackbar's famous line in Star Wars.  Endor was a Trap, but the Rebel Alliance still pulled through in the end.

I completely agree with that.  Nice reference too.

Actually yes. That is my interpretation as well. The beam is a trap. London is a trap. The earth is a trap. The whole SOL system is a trap. The Crucible is a trap. The Citadel is deffinitly a trap. The whole relay network is one huge trap. You are ALLOWED to build the crucible. You are ALLOWED to gather all the forces of the Galaxy, and all the leaders, and DELIVER them right into the hands of the reapers. The whole ME3 plot is trap. But that doesn't matter. You do it anyway - and go right into the trap - and prevail. Exactly the way it happens in the Return of the Jedi. 

Side note: Everyone hates on the ewoks there. I think it is unjestified. The idea that the BIG ALMIGHTY EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE in the end was brought down by a bunch of fluffy teddybears with spears and bows is a beautifull one. It adds insult to the injury. (that is actually a very prevalent theme in Return of the Jedi - case and point - Boby Fett, the ultimate badass bountyhunter). And i feel that this is exaclty the thing that must happen to the reapers. We should fuскing smash them with rocks. HUGE, trown at FTL speeds, rocks. 

For a trap, I have to say it's not a really effective if they intended to suffer no losses.

For that matter...in the end of the game, there was a very disappointingly low amount of showing Reaper's being destroyed. Now I do account for the fact it is quite difficult to kill a reaper, but you would think that to give us a more significant feel for accomplishment to see a whole bunch of Reapers exploding. Well, instead of now where a few are killed in battle and the rest just fall over after the wave passes over them.

[ZarZar726]

demersel wrote...

This. For all we know everything might be happenning in shepard's mind and take only a slip second or less of real time - the way your entire life flashes before your eyes just before you die, but harbinger will get distracted the very last second - attacked or something. Picking destroy and the explosion in destroy may be Harbinger going on with the kill but in very high EMS he gets prevented from finishing you off.

I know I'm about a day late on this, but what you said is awesome! I never though of anything like that before. Very, very, interesting!

[ZarZar726]

TJ, I just started looking over this thread now, and I find it very interesting! I will come back tomorrow to read over the initial post, to see what this theory is all about!

[demersel]

Well there is a second part to it. Who says the reapers a re actually that tough, as they would like us to think. The way i see it - they are desperate - for thein it is a last stand too. Not because the chose to, mind you.

[TJBartlemus]

ZarZar726 wrote...

TJ, I just started looking over this thread now, and I find it very interesting! I will come back tomorrow to read over the initial post, to see what this theory is all about!

Well thanks!  Always love support from others.

[masster blaster]

Tj rules, but byne is my battlemaster.

[demersel]

Nah, Byne's a tool. TJ is the real deal.

Modifié par demersel, 09 janvier 2013 - 03:13 .

[TJBartlemus]

demersel wrote...

Nah, Byne's a tool. TJ is the real deal.

Byne isn't a tool.  Please stay on topic...

[TJBartlemus]

demersel wrote...

Well there is a second part to it. Who says the reapers a re actually that tough, as they would like us to think. The way i see it - they are desperate - for thein it is a last stand too. Not because the chose to, mind you.

Now why would the Reaper's be desperate? They have large numbers, superior tech, and time is on their side. One Reaper was able to take down 1-3 fleets. And there are 1000's of them. To say they are desperate is not exactly accurate.

[Math Effect]

demersel wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Math Effect wrote...

I agree the Beam was a trap. But traps are often dual-natured, and just because it could likely function as an indoctrination device does NOT mean it can't also function as a Conduit to the Citadel.

Take Ackbar's famous line in Star Wars. Endor was a Trap, but the Rebel Alliance still pulled through in the end.

I completely agree with that. Nice reference too.

Actually yes. That is my interpretation as well. The beam is a trap. London is a trap. The earth is a trap. The whole SOL system is a trap. The Crucible is a trap. The Citadel is deffinitly a trap. The whole relay network is one huge trap. You are ALLOWED to build the crucible. You are ALLOWED to gather all the forces of the Galaxy, and all the leaders, and DELIVER them right into the hands of the reapers. The whole ME3 plot is trap. But that doesn't matter. You do it anyway - and go right into the trap - and prevail. Exactly the way it happens in the Return of the Jedi.

Side note: Everyone hates on the ewoks there. I think it is unjestified. The idea that the BIG ALMIGHTY EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE in the end was brought down by a bunch of fluffy teddybears with spears and bows is a beautifull one. It adds insult to the injury. (that is actually a very prevalent theme in Return of the Jedi - case and point - Boby Fett, the ultimate badass bountyhunter). And i feel that this is exaclty the thing that must happen to the reapers. We should fuскing smash them with rocks. HUGE, trown at FTL speeds, rocks.

Disagree on the extent of the trap. Sol system was attacked early because Shepard has been identified as a threat and the Reapers are actively trying to destroy the Normandy (interpretation of the stupid Galaxy Map minigame). Shepard isn't simply being allowed to do whatever he wants. Plus if the Reapers stopped Shepard, the Geth would've annihilated the Quarians, the Rachni and that Turian bomb would've killed a lot of Krogan, and Udina would've killed the Council.

But anyways, how does your Shepard prevail? I feel like the one thing I haven't seen from WNT is an interpretation of possible endings.

[TJBartlemus]

Math Effect wrote...

Disagree on the extent of the trap. Sol system was attacked early because Shepard has been identified as a threat and the Reapers are actively trying to destroy the Normandy (interpretation of the stupid Galaxy Map minigame). Shepard isn't simply being allowed to do whatever he wants. Plus if the Reapers stopped Shepard, the Geth would've annihilated the Quarians, the Rachni and that Turian bomb would've killed a lot of Krogan, and Udina would've killed the Council.

But anyways, how does your Shepard prevail? I feel like the one thing I haven't seen from WNT is an interpretation of possible endings.

Interpretation of the endings? Pretty much all WNT has stated so far is that the Reapers are influencing Shepard's perceptions through indoctrination. Even in the decision chamber. The theory itself does not make any assertations on which choice to make though.  

[Math Effect]

Even if WNT itself doesn't advocate an ending, WNTers should have preferred endings and reasons supporting their preferences, I hope? I'm curious about those, especially if they also incorporate WNTesque elements.

I've described mine.

[KyreneZA]

Math Effect wrote...

Even if WNT itself doesn't advocate an ending, WNTers should have preferred endings and reasons supporting their preferences, I hope? I'm curious about those, especially if they also incorporate WNTesque elements.

I've described mine.

I'll bite:

After seeing an image of the oily shadows in the "Destroy" explosion (similar to the explosions created by Harbinger's beam attack), it all finally clicked a couple of days ago. Regardless of how much of everything in "Priority: Earth" transpires in reality, I am now convinced that Shepard is being indoctrinated and all choices lead to the destruction of Shepard's cycle anyway.

Choosing "Destroy" makes Harbinger fire on Shepard again, killing them, or with high EMS not-quite killing them, but they die in the rubble after the breath scene anyway. Becoming a martyr galvanizes the galaxy enough that the Reapers incur more losses than any cycle before. This allows for future cycles to eventually beat them through attrition (with the help of Liara's beacons), leading to the Stargazer scene in some far off future cycle.

Choosing "Control" the indoctrination attempt succeeds and Shepard is now either a Reaper agent or a husk. The Reapers lose little more than they had up to that point, but (like the Prothean cycle before) there is no capital ship built and humans become the new Collectors. The cycles more than likely continue for longer than "Destroy" or "Refuse" as most of Liara's beacons are found and destroyed. Some future cycle does what should have been done in Shepard's cycle and this allows for future cycles to eventually beat them through attrition (without the help of Liara's beacons, but thourhg some fore warning of their own), leading to the Stargazer scene in some far off future cycle.

Choosing "Synthesis," Shepard ascends the beam to become the Reaper mind of the next capital ship, like the Reapers had wanted even before the Lazarus Project. The Reapers lose little more than they had up to that point and possibly gain some destroyers along with the Shepard-Reaper capital ship. The cycles more than likely continue for longer than "Destroy" or "Refuse" as with the "Control" ending resulting in the same eventual Stargazer scene in some far off future cycle.

Choosing "Refuse" is the only non-Catalyst-offered choice, but since conventional victory is not possible, events pretty much play out as in the current EC post-Refuse ending, but in the way described in the "Destroy" ending above.

All of the above may change slightly depending on anything revealed/contradicted in/by future DLC/s.

tl;dr: This cycle dies anyway with less or more Reaper losses depending on your choice.