304 réponses à ce sujet

[shepdog77]

paxxton wrote...

Shepdog, you again. This thread isn't for you. It's serious stuff.

lol @seriousstuff

[TJBartlemus]

shepdog77 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Shepdog, you again. This thread isn't for you. It's serious stuff.

lol @seriousstuff

Okay, then what's your opinion on it?  (or am I going to regret asking that??) 

[GethPrimeMKII]

This might might help us get back on topic and also help me with my document. Lets play a game of spot the Catalyst's contradictions:

"The Citadel is part of me."

“The created will always rebel against their creators.”

"Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics."

"I control the Reapers. They are my solution."

[TJBartlemus]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...
"The Citadel is part of me."

Problem. How can it be part of him and also be his home?  

[KJSync]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...



“The created will always rebel against their creators.”

The geth prove otherwise 

[byne]

TJBartlemus wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...
"The Citadel is part of me."

Problem. How can it be part of him and also be his home?  

Home is where the heart is?

[TJBartlemus]

byne wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...
"The Citadel is part of me."

Problem. How can it be part of him and also be his home?  

Home is where the heart is?

Well I asked that cause for it's this organics: "My arm is a part of me. I live in my home. My home is not a part of me." AI's are created in the image of organics, so why would this be different? (I understand that AI's aren't organic or have a physical body.) Unless the Citadel was a giant database/computor for him? Similar to EDI's AI core? 

[paxxton]

TJBartlemus wrote...

byne wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...
"The Citadel is part of me."

Problem. How can it be part of him and also be his home?  

Home is where the heart is?

Well I asked that cause for it's this organics: "My arm is a part of me. I live in my home. My home is not a part of me." AI's are created in the image of organics, so why would this be different? (I understand that AI's aren't organic or have a physical body.) Unless the Citadel was a giant database/computor for him? Similar to EDI's AI core? 

Yeah, I can also see that contradiction. Maybe Leviathan will tell us how's that possible.  Unless the Catalyst is distributed throughout the Citadel.

[TJBartlemus]

paxxton wrote...
Yeah, I can also see that contradiction. Maybe Leviathan will tell us how's that possible.  Unless the Catalyst is distributed throughout the Citadel.

But that would make no sense. If he was then what was the point of Sovereign going to activate the Citadel? Also saying he couldn't activate it doesn't make sense either. To make a leader that can only direct troops and is stuck in his home (that is part of him remember...) would be very inefficient and illogical.

[GethPrimeMKII]

The choices the Catalyst offers Shepard pretty much make the entire trilogy pointless if you examine them closely enough to realize Shepard isn't necessary to make any of them happen.

[Kelwing]

Good read.

I really never like the entire idea of IT even if interesting as I felt Shep was being pushed towards certain choices. You pointed out things I'm surprised I haven't noticed. Now I will pay even more attention to the little things so easily overlooked.

[zambot]

You've presented a hypothesis that "things are not what they seem" at the end. But after reading the OP a few times now, I cannot find an interpretation of the endings. It's getting late in the day, so perhaps I missed it, but how does this apply to the actual choices themselves?

[SHARXTREME]

It's simple how Citadel can be part of Catalyst.
Remember Geth and how each individual program(single geth) makes the Geth collective?
After Quarians destroyed Geth Dyson Sphere they killed a lot of Geth already stored there, so (according to Legion) Geth intelligence diminished and in pure survival mode they joined up with Reapers.

Now, how can Citadel be part of Catalyst.
Catalyst can be representation of the Reapers collective consciousness. ("One who is made of many" in contrast to Borg Queen who is just "One who is many") by the formula of: "sum greater then it's individual parts"(which is exact definition of life and synthetics) .

For this to be true AND for Reapers to be independent/ or unaware of their dependency("each thought a nation") AND for Catalyst to control them("I control the Reapers") you must think of them as one entity made of many entities on different levels of existence.

On top of that, Citadel must be Reaper-like, a synthetic entity which is part of collective, so it's part of the Catalyst too.
There is no imperative for the Reapers to be aware of the Catalyst or Citadel-entity, they are just parts. Reapers, ironically, can be like organs in Catalyst organism. Sentient, but without ability to grasp the connection between them, sum of them. They just cannot comprehend that from their (inside) perspective.
Only outsiders(like Catalyst and Shepard) could comprehend that.


I know this is not really written-in the story, but it's the only explanation in which Catalyst doesn't contradict itself on that point.
There are still contradictions in "Created will always rebel against creators" which is a non-argument(non-fact) by itself. Catalyst cannot know that and Geth and Quarians disproved that.

[TJBartlemus]

SHARXTREME wrote...

It's simple how Citadel can be part of Catalyst.
Remember Geth and how each individual program(single geth) makes the Geth collective?
After Quarians destroyed Geth Dyson Sphere they killed a lot of Geth already stored there, so (according to Legion) Geth intelligence diminished and in pure survival mode they joined up with Reapers.

Now, how can Citadel be part of Catalyst.
Catalyst can be representation of the Reapers collective consciousness. ("One who is made of many" in contrast to Borg Queen who is just "One who is many") by the formula of: "sum greater then it's individual parts"(which is exact definition of life and synthetics) .

For this to be true AND for Reapers to be independent/ or unaware of their dependency("each thought a nation") AND for Catalyst to control them("I control the Reapers") you must think of them as one entity made of many entities on different levels of existence.

On top of that, Citadel must be Reaper-like, a synthetic entity which is part of collective, so it's part of the Catalyst too.
There is no imperative for the Reapers to be aware of the Catalyst or Citadel-entity, they are just parts. Reapers, ironically, can be like organs in Catalyst organism. Sentient, but without ability to grasp the connection between them, sum of them. They just cannot comprehend that from their (inside) perspective.
Only outsiders(like Catalyst and Shepard) could comprehend that.


I know this is not really written-in the story, but it's the only explanation in which Catalyst doesn't contradict itself on that point.
There are still contradictions in "Created will always rebel against creators" which is a non-argument(non-fact) by itself. Catalyst cannot know that and Geth and Quarians disproved that.

Hmmmm.....very well explained. I agree with that entire statement except for the last sentance, How can the Catalyst not know? If it truely is a collection of all the Reapers, then it knows what the Reaper on Rannoch knows + that the geth are no longer under Reaper control and from the Reapers in the Battle for earth that both geth and quarians are attacking them. So how couldn't it know? 

[TJBartlemus]

zambot wrote...

You've presented a hypothesis that "things are not what they seem" at the end. But after reading the OP a few times now, I cannot find an interpretation of the endings. It's getting late in the day, so perhaps I missed it, but how does this apply to the actual choices themselves?

How does it apply? It applys in a possible 2 ways. 1- A mix of IT/WNT as was the original idea. Pretty much  that the beginning of the mission is WNT, but once harbinger hit you with the beam IT begins. (Part 1) OR 2- Applied the main idea to the entire end of the game. This means that the choices do indeed happen, but not everything is entirely what you think they are. (PART 2) (I would recommend either to look at the first paragraph in the main part of PART 1 for the main idea.) Both consist of the main idea, but differ in the amount that it applies to the game.

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 04 août 2012 - 05:30 .

[paxxton]

I was thinking about how the beam influenced its surroundings. You write that the Reaper had to decrease its proximity to the beam for the rockets to be unaffected by it. Wouldn't that imply that the beam's influence is only at close range? Or maybe the influence is at long range but it's so small and "subtle" that the rockets (covered with thick metal plates) are unaffected but organics are.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 août 2012 - 07:28 .

[JBPBRC]

Or what if Shepard has been in a coma since the beacon hit him in ME1, and the massive changes to the universe are a result of his sanity slipping away? Thermal clips for instance. Starkid, the Crucible, etc. Implications...unpleasant.

[paxxton]

JBPBRC wrote...

Or what if Shepard has been in a coma since the beacon hit him in ME1, and the massive changes to the universe are a result of his sanity slipping away? Thermal clips for instance. Starkid, the Crucible, etc. Implications...unpleasant.

If he was in a coma, he couldn't influence the real Galaxy. Only the one in his dream. 

Modifié par paxxton, 04 août 2012 - 07:35 .

[TJBartlemus]

paxxton wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Or what if Shepard has been in a coma since the beacon hit him in ME1, and the massive changes to the universe are a result of his sanity slipping away? Thermal clips for instance. Starkid, the Crucible, etc. Implications...unpleasant.

If he was in a coma, he couldn't influence the real Galaxy. Only the one in his dream. 

It would also mean that the 3 games in the series didn't happen. The potential backlash if that was true would make the anger for the ending now seem childish. The difference in anger would be like comparing a granade to a nuke. Yeah, I don't think so. 

[paxxton]

TJBartlemus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Or what if Shepard has been in a coma since the beacon hit him in ME1, and the massive changes to the universe are a result of his sanity slipping away? Thermal clips for instance. Starkid, the Crucible, etc. Implications...unpleasant.

If he was in a coma, he couldn't influence the real Galaxy. Only the one in his dream. 

It would also mean that the 3 games in the series didn't happen. The potential backlash if that was true would make the anger for the ending now seem childish. The difference in anger would be like comparing a granade to a nuke. Yeah, I don't think so. 

What if they revealed that at the same time they announced ME4? It'd make it more palatable for those who couldn't stand it.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 août 2012 - 07:49 .

[TJBartlemus]

paxxton wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Or what if Shepard has been in a coma since the beacon hit him in ME1, and the massive changes to the universe are a result of his sanity slipping away? Thermal clips for instance. Starkid, the Crucible, etc. Implications...unpleasant.

If he was in a coma, he couldn't influence the real Galaxy. Only the one in his dream. 

It would also mean that the 3 games in the series didn't happen. The potential backlash if that was true would make the anger for the ending now seem childish. The difference in anger would be like comparing a granade to a nuke. Yeah, I don't think so. 

What if they revealed that at the same time they announced ME4? It'd make it more palatable for those who couldn't stand it.

I could see them announcing IT or WNT at the same time as ME4. It's unlikely though. If they hadn't told us by then, I'm sure it will most likely be proven in ME4 instead of a public announcement.

[paxxton]

TJBartlemus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Or what if Shepard has been in a coma since the beacon hit him in ME1, and the massive changes to the universe are a result of his sanity slipping away? Thermal clips for instance. Starkid, the Crucible, etc. Implications...unpleasant.

If he was in a coma, he couldn't influence the real Galaxy. Only the one in his dream. 

It would also mean that the 3 games in the series didn't happen. The potential backlash if that was true would make the anger for the ending now seem childish. The difference in anger would be like comparing a granade to a nuke. Yeah, I don't think so. 

What if they revealed that at the same time they announced ME4? It'd make it more palatable for those who couldn't stand it.

I could see them announcing IT or WNT at the same time as ME4. It's unlikely though. If they hadn't told us by then, I'm sure it will most likely be proven in ME4 instead of a public announcement.

Leaving IT for ME4 somehow makes sense to me. The dev cycle of the main game is in the maintainance stage. The main game is a kind of framework for DLCs. In the case of the timeline it presents, BioWare won't add anything post-breath because that part of the story isn't meant for the current product. One thing that puzzles me though is that if they knew that the story wouldn't end with ME3, why they keep on saying "Shepard's story is over." Why say it in the first place if they knew it wasn't true. That only makes sense if one of those holds true:
1. They do it on purpose. Why? To lure people into indoctrination at the end.
2. They didn't plan on IT.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 août 2012 - 08:13 .

[TJBartlemus]

paxxton wrote...
Leaving IT for ME4 somehow makes sense to me. The dev cycle of the main game is in the maintainance stage. The main game is a kind of framework for DLCs. In the case of the timeline it presents, BioWare won't add anything post-breath because that part of the story isn't meant for the current product. One thing that puzzles me though is that if they knew that the story wouldn't end with ME3, why they keep on saying "Shepard's story is over." Why say it in the first place if they knew it wasn't true. 

Well it is the end of Shepard's story to an extent. He could live in Destroy and appear in ME4, but not as a major character. To prove IT or WNT all it would take is something not to match with what we saw in ME3. Like if the Reapers were still there in ME4 or if you were told what happened and you asked Shepard and his/her story didn't match to the canon.

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 04 août 2012 - 08:19 .

[paxxton]

TJBartlemus wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Leaving IT for ME4 somehow makes sense to me. The dev cycle of the main game is in the maintainance stage. The main game is a kind of framework for DLCs. In the case of the timeline it presents, BioWare won't add anything post-breath because that part of the story isn't meant for the current product. One thing that puzzles me though is that if they knew that the story wouldn't end with ME3, why they keep on saying "Shepard's story is over." Why say it in the first place if they knew it wasn't true. 

Well it is the end of Shepard's story to an extent. He could live in Destroy and appear in ME4, but not as a major character. To prove IT or WNT all it would take is something not to match with what we saw in ME3. Like if the Reapers were still there in ME4 or if you were told what happened and you asked Shepard and his/her story didn't match to the canon.

It could go like this. The Reapers retreat into dark space for now. Shepard lives after each of the endings but his psyche is warped after Control/Synthesis. The new protagonist doesn't know that. If Shepard is indoctrinated, he acts suspiciously but for sometime he's cautious not to reveal his true allegiance. Then after some time he starts to  contradict himself. Like recalling previous events not as they happened (save import). He starts to make mistakes. Finally he is revealed to be indoctrinated and tries to signal the Reapers. If he succeeds the Reapers return to finish the harvest.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 août 2012 - 10:20 .

[TJBartlemus]

paxxton wrote...
It could go like this. The Reapers retreat into dark space for now. Shepard lives after each of the endings but his psyche is warped after Control/Synthesis. The new protagonist doesn't know that. If Shepard is indoctrinated, he acts suspiciously but for sometime he's cautious not to reveal his true allegiance. Then after some time he starts to  contradict himself. Like recalling previous events not as they happened (save import). He starts to make mistakes. Finally he is revealed to be indoctrinated and tries to signal the Reapers. If he succeeds the Reapers return to finish the harvest.

I like that idea except the part where they would go back to dark space. Why leave when they were clearly winning? It would make sense for them to retreat and gather up a counter attack and Shepard released important plans to them.