27 réponses à ce sujet

[RobotXYZ]

Bard and Assassin need cunning... soooo we have a duelist (14) ranger (7)

Dwarf Commoner for 10% spell resistance

1 DW Training, Stealth 1 (to steal)
2 Deft Hands
3 Duel Sweep
4 Flurry, Momentum
5 Improved Tools
6 Stealth 2
7 Wolf
8 Mechanical Expertise
9 Stealth 3
10 Bear
11 Spider
12 Device Mastery
Tome (camp) Master Ranger
13 Whirlwind
14 DW Finesse
15 Dueling
16 Upset Balance
17 Keen Defense
18 Dark Passage (downloadable content)
19 Stealth 4
Tome (ozammar) Pinpoint Striking

Now I decide to versatile with archery (you have high dex) and pick up arrow of slaying

20 Pinning Shot
21 Crippling Shot
22 Critical shot
Landsmeet: Arrow of Slaying

if you farm more levels go for the punisher line I guess..

23 Dual Striking
24 Riposte
25 Crippler

Stats

Str + gear = enough for cadesh stompers (22 str) they build agro but your defense is HIGH
Cunning + gear = enough for 30 to pick chests.  At least 22 hard points for talents..
Willpower... maybe a few points for more skill usage
Magic = none
Con...maybe a few points but maybe better off raising defense

Dex = the majority of points.

[Gaidren]

Cadesh stompers are tank boots, in my opinion. You still don't really want to pull aggro as a rogue even if you can't easily be hit, since it keeps you from easily backstabbing.



I don't know why so many people go to 30 Cunning for lockpicking. 22 Cunning opens everything but the highest level chests (assuming Device Mastery of course) and you can always have one of the NPC rogues go heavy Cunning for that handful of times in the game where you *need* to open that max level chest. Hell, there's a +3 Cunning ring and a +5 Cunning dagger. There's your 30 Cunning right there without having to spend points in Cunning above 22.

[RobotXYZ]

I'll have to expirement with the stompers... I'll probably put 1 pt in strength and with harvest ring + helm honnleath + belt I have 22...

I have the DLC and there is a good dagger with +5 cunning so I will only need 22 cunning.  But for anyone inspired by my idea (without DLC dagger) you have a good point and maybe skip the chests that don't open with more than 22 cunning.  Thanks for the suggestion (its why I post this  )

Modifié par RobotXYZ, 20 décembre 2009 - 05:52 .

[Tonya777]

This certainly is not a good idea for 1337ness , if you're just making your rogue this way for fun cause you've already done it the right way or you just don't care? Well ok then

[RobotXYZ]

I'm not sure what exactly 1337ness means but I take it you don't think the build is good.  Could you express what you don't like about it.  I'm guessing you don't like the lack of cunning/lethality...

[Tonya777]

I have done Rogue playthroughs 3x and yes Lethality/Cunning are mandatory as well as Coup de grace + Riposte & Dirty fighting

[RobotXYZ]

How do you know they are mandatory?  Have you tested and compared other alternatives?  Or does your saying just amount to 'I like these skills therefore any other spec is NOT good'...

[Tonya777]

I played Rogues THREE times don't you ASSUME that yes I tested everything?

[Fleapants]

You will have a skyhigh defence and you'll not be dependent on having your groupmembers buff your attackrating -but- you'll do less pure damage than the build the 1337b0i above seems to prefer.

A really good topic on rogue mechanics:

http://social.biowar.../index/223777/1

[RobotXYZ]

Tonya, I guess my question should have been which 3 types of rogues did you play and what trends did you notice..  My thinking is that you cannot do damage if you cannot hit.  So dex with 1.02 does defense/hit/damage on my build...  Cunning on the other hand grants damage, but its only the damage in excess of str.  So you don't get 72 cunning if your cunning is 72 you really only get the excess which is greater than strength, because a dex rogue will also have strength damage.  I think the beauty of cunning is that you do armor penetration at the same time you build damage.

You may spec a party to buff your attack, but I can spec a party with other abilities choices.  In other words if a party member uses a talent to buff attacks then he cannot take the opportunity cost of a talent to deal damage or CC.  Also if he takes an action (such as a mage buffing with heroic attack) there is an opportunity cost in that the mage could have spent that moment to heal or cast a CC or damage spell.

A dex rogue can also more easily use archery because archery it is hard to hit your opponent.  Something like arrow of slaying you really don't want to miss.

Also my build is a tank with that much dex and defensive talents and also has a tank ranger pet.  If you decide to go assassin instead of ranger then you lose the pet obviously..

I played a cunning rogue to level 12 and I had only 72% hit rate which suggests that there is a lot of room to increase dps by hitting more often.

----------------------------------------------

I am a member of a builder forum with over 20 builds posted for NWN2 so I am interested in these things.  In NWN2 there were certain builds that you could say were optimal such as terracotta soldier (for a damage dealing warrior) but NWN2 would be very boring if the only build you could play was terra soldier.  I think it is less fun to think that there is only one build to play.

[Tonya777]

My 1st Rogue is where I learned from mistakes



They did STR/DEX but mostly DEX , did not have Lethality or the ability to open chests at all (This forcing me to have a 2nd Rogue in party who I also screwed up)



Did not have coup de grace either



After that I did a mage playthrough and had learned alot on the forums and I did a new Rogue with those abilities and DEX/CUN instead and was AMAZED at the HUGE DIFFERENCE



So yeah , and Duelist is more or less useless , that 100% crit buff? Lasts a whole 15 seconds......

[RobotXYZ]

My 1st Rogue is where I learned from mistakes.  They did
STR/DEX but mostly DEX , did not have Lethality or the ability to open
chests at all (This forcing me to have a 2nd Rogue in party who I also
screwed up)

My rogue can open every chest in the game with only 22 cunning + items and device mastery.

Did not have coup de grace either

I don't like that skill because almost always with a tank taunting you don't need it.  In other words theres always plenty of targets for backstabs.  My character also can use pinpoint striking for 15 seconds as you say for those rare times when there is 1 boss and I have somehow agrod the boss which I am unable to stealth and go for backstabs.  By the way is that 15 seconds real time or game time?  If real then thats a long time as usually everything is dead in a minute anyhow.  Coup de grace also forces you to take combat movement which I do not like because you can just move 1 more foot and still get your backstabs so long as the tank has him occupied.

So my build is relient on a tank with taunt, but I would want that anyhow for obvious reasons.

After
that I did a mage playthrough and had learned alot on the forums and I
did a new Rogue with those abilities and DEX/CUN instead and was AMAZED
at the HUGE DIFFERENCE

How did you spec your dex rogue?  What was your hit rate on your cunning rogue?

So yeah , and Duelist is more or less useless , that 100% crit buff? Lasts a whole 15 seconds......

the crit buff isn't that good but duelist gives +1 damage which is good and also works for archery.  Keen defense is what I am really after because if enemies have a 90% miss rate rather than 80% then that means I have effectively doubled my health.  Defense has the opposite of diminishing returns, increasing returns.  The ability is not capped so mobs can possibly have a 0% chance to hit you I think.. (not sure why I guess that)

What I am hoping is that I take some agro off Alistair and help his survivability, yet not all of the agro off him so that I can still backstab.  Skills like dual sweep and Whirlwind will help me gain agro.  I can experiment with the Cadesh Stompers.

Modifié par RobotXYZ, 20 décembre 2009 - 07:50 .

[Fleapants]

I completed the game yesterday with a pure Cun rogue (16 str, 24 dex, rest in cun), had a final hitrating of 84%, which seems okish, but!

Against bosses that debuffs you or dispels your buffs - ugh. Miss miss miss.

There's far more to specs than your theoretical dps or in how many backstabs you can defeat Loghain.

[Hahren]

I think your build looks sound. It's not like your plan is going to break the character to the point that you can not enjoy the game. I think you already understand that you are not going to out damage any other build that is made for the sole purpose of extreme backstab damage.



I have one rogue built for extreme backstab damage (Bard/Assassin). I have two others built to be toe-to-toe fighter types. One is a sword wielding Bard/Duelist, and the other is a Ranger/Duelist with a thing for 1h axes. They have less damage potential, but they bring utility. Oh, and by less damage potential that means I might have a fight last a few more seconds. Boohoo.



In the case of my two duelists both have enough strength (31) to wield the top of the line 1h full size weapons of my preference. In the case of the fencer she has more dex because I felt like doing that. Willpower isn't a bad investment if you go down the Punisher line. The axe wielding Ranger has enough dex, and cun to get by, and mostly strength. Neither of these characters need to backstab to get the most out of their builds. They can fight well enough at any angle, and the special attacks do decent damage. It's not the same level of damage that a berserker can bring, but a berserker can't disable locks/traps, or stealth ahead to set up traps.



For the ranger I would have rather have made it a warrior because it is usually a subcatagory for that class. In DA I have to settle to make a ranger a rogue with a heavy focus on combat. It works, but it's not optimal.



Good luck OP!

[RobotXYZ]

Another part of my idea is to make both Morigan and Wynne into arcane warriors.... That way if they get attacked they have armor and can throw up a shimmering shield...(if I even spec those talents)...

So no matter who takes the agro they won't be able to hurt me much..

Thanks for the comments from everyone...  I wish there was a builders forum like in NWN2 I would like to get some more ideas..  

[Hahren]

Fleapants wrote...

I completed the game yesterday with a pure Cun rogue (16 str, 24 dex, rest in cun), had a final hitrating of 84%, which seems okish, but!
Against bosses that debuffs you or dispels your buffs - ugh. Miss miss miss.
There's far more to specs than your theoretical dps or in how many backstabs you can defeat Loghain.

So very true! I finished my first play through as an AW mage. My hit rate was in the 80's, and so was Alistair. I played through as my first rogue, and had 20-30 more attack rating. My hit % was in the mid 90's, and he still made up 60% of the damage dealt. From now on I have a goal on where I want my attack rating to land. It works out far better now.

[Siven80]

Assasin is built for a DW rogue. While cunning does boost its dmg its still great with small-medium cunning(30-40imo) so dont discount that.

People put too much faith in High this or high that. Balanced stats works well too and doesnt really "gimp" any areas of your character imo. Tho in some cases (archery and 2hand warrs) you will want a higher attack stat(Dex/Str).

[Lord Phoebus]

I'm going with Assassin/Duelist instead, even if you aren't using cunning, you can get quite a lift from Mark of Death and the other abilities. I put my strength to 38 (44), cunning to 30 (40) and the rest in dex (50). It's at level 17 right now 41 armor, 110 attack and 110 defense with just equipment (no modes or spells). It can wipe out rooms of enemies by itself as long as there is only one mage, so it's not a weak build by any stretch. It can quite comfortably play the tank and with dual striking and momentum active it can two shot a white enemy.

[Tonya777]

Let me point something out though , you can save talent points by only getting 2/4 lockpick line talents and having 50+ CUN , and you would end up doing more damage



You want to argue with me? I'm not going to argue with you because CLEARLY you don't actually want help/advice/pointers and you're being ignorant , do with your Rogue whatever you want its not my problem I was just trying to help you make your Rogue do better dmg

[RobotXYZ]

"You want to argue with me? I'm not going to argue with you because
CLEARLY you don't actually want help/advice/pointers and you're being
ignorant , do with your Rogue whatever you want its not my problem I
was just trying to help you make your Rogue do better dmg"

I can tell you are angry because you called me ignorant.  I think I have different goals than the cunning build.  As I pointed out there are advantages and disadvantages.  As I stated I like a variety of builds rather than just calling everyone ignorant who refuses to play the most popular build (terracotta soldier in NWN2 as I said).

So if you don't want to discuss things thats fine.  I do want help and advice but I would like to analyze it rather than just take the word of every forum dude who makes a statement.  So 1) I like more diversity in builds than just one bests spec 2) there are advantages and disadvantages to the cunning spec and I would like to analyze them.

Lethality-Cunning saves 1 talent point and gives you below the belt and deathly strike.  The difference is that you end up specing cunning instead of dex.  This lowers attack and defense.  It is very good for assassins, bards, and the second DLC talent to have high cunning.  Lethality also means that you get cunning instead of BUT NOT in addition to strength.  So you waste the points you have in strength other than to equip armor.

I did not post in the first place that my build was better than a cunning build.  I would prefer comments to make it a better dex build.  Optimize it.  For instance what if in a mage thread you posted that cunning rogues are better than mages....  Would that have been constructive?

Thank you.

Modifié par RobotXYZ, 20 décembre 2009 - 09:49 .

[Gaidren]

Cunning dagger/dagger does more damage than Dex dagger/dagger, true. *However*, they have a waaaaay higher miss rate and no real defense. I've experimented with both. When I was high Cunning I tore things apart when I could flank things, but I also fell over fast when I got any attention from mobs at all and if I had to attack something from the front or off-tank something, forget it. Dex rogues do less damage, but you have the added utility of being able to off-tank if you absolutely need to. You also aren't reliant on Heroic Offense or flanking to be able to hit something. I mean, Dex rogues literally have huge amounts of attack rating over what a Cunning rogue has late game. Against enemies with high defense, it is reeeeally noticeable. My Cunning rogue would be attacking Revenants (who have Aura of Weakness) and seeing "miss, miss, miss", even with direct flanking.



High Cunning frees up points in the lockpicking line, but requries Lethality, so it all evens out really.



I honestly prefered 20 Str/Max Dex/22 Cunning and no Lethality over 20 Str/30 Dex/Max Cunning. The utility from the Dex outweighed the extra damage from Cunning, at least to me.

[Timortis]

Don't listen to the naysayers. Dex Rogues are awesome. The only Rogue build that can solo the game.

[Maedryc]

Gaidren wrote...

Cunning dagger/dagger does more damage than Dex dagger/dagger, true. *However*, they have a waaaaay higher miss rate and no real defense. I've experimented with both. When I was high Cunning I tore things apart when I could flank things, but I also fell over fast when I got any attention from mobs at all and if I had to attack something from the front or off-tank something, forget it. Dex rogues do less damage, but you have the added utility of being able to off-tank if you absolutely need to. You also aren't reliant on Heroic Offense or flanking to be able to hit something. I mean, Dex rogues literally have huge amounts of attack rating over what a Cunning rogue has late game. Against enemies with high defense, it is reeeeally noticeable. My Cunning rogue would be attacking Revenants (who have Aura of Weakness) and seeing "miss, miss, miss", even with direct flanking.

High Cunning frees up points in the lockpicking line, but requries Lethality, so it all evens out really.

I honestly prefered 20 Str/Max Dex/22 Cunning and no Lethality over 20 Str/30 Dex/Max Cunning. The utility from the Dex outweighed the extra damage from Cunning, at least to me.

Seconded. I played two dex rogues and the game was a breeze: aside from dragons, you can solo pretty much everything. With Zevran, Leliana and my character built as full dex dual wielders I didn't even need a healer.
DA:O is not WoW, you don't need to scratch every little bit of dps out of  your PCs to succeed, especially if doing so means that you're going to be a glass cannon.

Modifié par Maedryc, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:48 .

[Timortis]

I experimented too, hated the cunning builds. Waay to fragile and dependent on others to do well for my liking.

[fchopin]

I also prefer higher dex than cunning with my rogue, i am trying to find a good balance at the moment but it is difficult to get exact numbers.



I have no fear of anything in the game at the moment and i am level 16, my rogue has no problem even if surrounded by 6 fighters.



I tried the cunning route but was not happy with the results, my rogue was to week and i could not play the game how i wanted.