304 réponses à ce sujet

[Ausstig]

 Sorry to keep makeing new threads but it seemed worth dicussing, Any way I don't think we the players get just how dangerous a rouge mage/abomination is. We cut through them like nothing else, BUT just looking at Meredith's story about what happened to her sister, she killed 70 people, 70 thats as many as the Dark Knight Massacre HIT. 
That is how the common man, outside of those that live next to a circle, views mages serial killers waiting to happen. 
Mages or not like you or me, they have god-like powers and need to be treated accordingly. Mages are as flawed as anyone only with the power to shoot lightning from their hands, think about a time when you got and wanted to hit someone, now think if they had been hit by lightning. 
Mages are dangerous, even in Tervinter they cross the line, where ever it is, so can they even be trusted with freedom? 


or in a sentience: Gameplay mechincs make t difficult for players to understand how normal people view mages :

"Rouge Mages so what I killed like ten of theose five minitues ago, big deal" 

[Xilizhra]

Rouge mages? What, are they on a mission to conquer Thedas' makeup industry? I can just imagine the ads that abominations would get...

Anyway, you had a small village that didn't seem to possess anyone with combat training get quite understandably kicked in the face by an abomination. This seems consistent with what we saw of abominations with the rest of the games; if anything, it seems an indictment of the place not being protected above all else.

[Siansonea]

The rouge/rogue thing never fails to crack me up.

[Melca36]

Not all mages are like that. And its wrong to assume that.

[Baronesa]

Moving past the rouge/rogue jokes and mentions, since the 2 lovely ladies above did that already...

Personally, I do understand it, and that is why Templars are needed...

What it is not needed is for the templars to run the circle of magi as a prision, they take pleasure in oppressing the mages and THAT oppression builds resentment and that increaes the chances for mages to go rogue

"Mages or not like you or me, they have god-like powers and need to be treated accordingly."

Let's change the word mages there for something else, shall we? as a simple thought exercise. Let's go with... gays, transexuals, blacks, women, muslims, jews. And then the "god-like powers" to a suitable distinction... If you can't see the problem of your statement then, I don't think anything else would help

The fact that mages MAY pose a danger and are different than you is not a reason to treat them as slaves or second class citizens, you are simply sugar coating bigotry by claiming to a higher security and shielding it on the fear of the common man.

None of those are good reasons.

Should there be checks and balances? of course, let the mages self police themselves and have the Templars as a fail safe, but not in the same way as it is happening right now.

Modifié par Baronesa, 03 août 2012 - 12:10 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

I believe that if the creators want us to realize how powerful an abomination truly is then they should make those things tougher to beat. Since I can currently cut them down like they're no big deal then to me they are no big deal. Pride demons on the other hand are a force to be reckoned with. That much is abundantly clear.

In the Warhammer games world, Psykers are truly dangerous. To themselves and others. Look it up. They share similarities with mages but mages are far less dangerous to the public in my opinion. Especially since even a low level mage can easily play doctor just by learning one low level spell. Psykers just wreck ****.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I do understand it, and that is why Templars are needed...

What it is not needed is for the templars to run the circle of magi as a prision, they take pleasure in oppressing the mages and THAT oppression builds resentment and that increaes the chances for mages to go rogue

The trouble, of course, being that the templars are motivated by religious bigotry and recruitment techniques that specifically look for amoral zealots, that the Order itself is too institutionally tainted to be allowed to survive. A new order of some kind of secular guardians is necessary.

[Baronesa]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I do understand it, and that is why Templars are needed...

What it is not needed is for the templars to run the circle of magi as a prision, they take pleasure in oppressing the mages and THAT oppression builds resentment and that increaes the chances for mages to go rogue

The trouble, of course, being that the templars are motivated by religious bigotry and recruitment techniques that specifically look for amoral zealots, that the Order itself is too institutionally tainted to be allowed to survive. A new order of some kind of secular guardians is necessary.

Well... that touch another aspect entirely... and either move to a more secular view (The new Divinine is far more open minded so it may lead to a lot of reforms) Or if that is not possible, just bring the chantry down.

[Mr.House]

There should be a school system where mages go when they are young, but they can have holidays and stay home for the summer with their family but for majority of their life they study magic, how to use it properly andt he danger of magic and then at the end of your learning, the First Enchanter will determine which people(like blood mages or people who summon demons or might be a threat or are a threat to normal people) and they are shipped to a prison ruled by Templars. There we go. This is WHAT should happen. The current system simply does not work but getting rid of the system and not creating something new and just letting mages go free for all is just as worse.

There should be two types of circles school and the prison, a prison where the mages that ARE the threat we hear about deserve to be.

Modifié par Mr.House, 03 août 2012 - 12:41 .

[Xilizhra]

Blood magic should be permitted, within a controlled context. Completely forbidding it only means that the ones who use it will be those who desire to access the forbidden, a group that often includes less functional personality types.

[Wrathion]

Xilizhra wrote...

Blood magic should be permitted, within a controlled context. Completely forbidding it only means that the ones who use it will be those who desire to access the forbidden, a group that often includes less functional personality types.

You are obviously the thrall of a Blood Mage. Your heresy is not permitted here.


While many an NPC has admitted that blood mage can be useful, most notably Fenris. I have to wonder...what good CAN blood magic be used for that it could be allowed at all?

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 03 août 2012 - 03:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Medical advances, for one thing. Consider all that can be done with the ability to completely control blood flow. Then, there's the possibility of mentally forcing enemies into submission without having to kill them... possible resurrection with a shorter window than what can be achieved with simple healing magic... numerous other tricks like what was necessary to bind Corypheus... more research into the darkspawn taint... there are many possibilities.

[Wrathion]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medical advances, for one thing. Consider all that can be done with the ability to completely control blood flow. Then, there's the possibility of mentally forcing enemies into submission without having to kill them... possible resurrection with a shorter window than what can be achieved with simple healing magic... numerous other tricks like what was necessary to bind Corypheus... more research into the darkspawn taint... there are many possibilities.

Ah yes. "Medical advances" now I will spend the rest of the day thinking about it...dandy :>

"Forcing enemies into submission" sound...easily exploitable. The most powerful country? The one that has the most blood mages. :I

At some point wasn't blood magic...legal? So when the Chantry banned blood magic all the advances that resulted from it's use where lost? That is an irritating thought.

[LobselVith8]

Meredith's story doesn't move me, Ausstig.

People know how dangerous apostates and abominations can be, but some of us don't believe in that an anti-mage religious organization should have control over the lives of mages across the continent. The fact that the Chantry promotes people like Meredith and Cassandra, who have had bad experiences with mages, only illustrates how broken this system is. The fact that Meredith ordered an act of genocide against an entire population of men, women, and children for an act they were completely innocent of only shows me how dangerous the Chantry and the Order of Templars can be when mages live at their mercy.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 août 2012 - 03:39 .

[General User]

You do remember the part where Meredith was being influenced by the lyrium idol/sword, right?

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

You do remember the part where Meredith was being influenced by the lyrium idol/sword, right?

In what way does that change the Chantry putting someone who has no business being Knight-Commander into the role, or doing nothing when the Knight-Commander seizes power and becomes Kirkwall's dictator?

As for the Right if Annulment, I remember the part where templars were willing to murder hundreds of innocent people for something Anders did because they were following orders.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 août 2012 - 03:57 .

[Wrathion]

General User wrote...

You do remember the part where Meredith was being influenced by the lyrium idol/sword, right?

Sure, the Lyrium Sword influenced her. But then...she would have to have already been harboring genocidey thoughts anyway. The swords a cop out anyway, that whole thing was dumb.

LobselVith8 wrote...


In what way does that change the Chantry putting someone who has no business being Knight-Commander into the role, or doing nothing when the Knight-Commander seizes power and becomes Kirkwall's dictator.

As for the Right if Annulment, I remember the part where templars were willing to murder hundreds of innocent people for something Anders did because they were following orders.

When Meredith became a Templar...did the Order know about her sister? Seems like they would avoid accepting people that had personal vendetta's against mages. And *COUGH* CULLEN *COUGH*

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 03 août 2012 - 03:59 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I do understand it, and that is why Templars are needed...

What it is not needed is for the templars to run the circle of magi as a prision, they take pleasure in oppressing the mages and THAT oppression builds resentment and that increaes the chances for mages to go rogue

The trouble, of course, being that the templars are motivated by religious bigotry and recruitment techniques that specifically look for amoral zealots, that the Order itself is too institutionally tainted to be allowed to survive. A new order of some kind of secular guardians is necessary.

How exactly do you get an "amoral zealot" when zealots are rather famous for their moral, umm... zeal.  Did you perhaps mean "immoral zealots"?

Modifié par General User, 03 août 2012 - 03:58 .

[TEWR]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...
While many an NPC has admitted that blood mage can be useful, most notably Fenris. I have to wonder...what good CAN blood magic be used for that it could be allowed at all?

1) Curing Blight-tainted inanimate objects
2) Allows the Wardens to be who they are
3) Allows the Wardens to live longer then 30 years
4) Allows research into the powers of the Taint
5) Creates phylacteries.
6) Can heal withered crops
7) Can control grievous injuries
8) If used by people like Feynriel, mind control can save a woman from being raped by a group of bandits.

There are many good uses that blood magic has. Mostly, it depends on the morality of the person using it, as the magic itself isn't inherently evil.

And one of the downsides people mention of it is that it can cause the Veil to rip open for demons to pass through. But really, that seems to be done through a specific part of blood magic, rather then blood magic on the whole.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

You do remember the part where Meredith was being influenced by the lyrium idol/sword, right?

In what way does that change the Chantry putting someone who has no business being Knight-Commander into the role, or doing nothing when the Knight-Commander seizes power and becomes Kirkwall's dictator?

As for the Right if Annulment, I remember the part where templars were willing to murder hundreds of innocent people for something Anders did because they were following orders.

Meredith served ably and faithfully as Kirkwall's Knight Commander for many years under very difficult circumstances.  The Templar Order's involvement in and oversight of the secular politics of Kirkwall had been an established precedent for some three decades or so by the time of Viscount Dumar's death.  The exact point at which Meredith fell into madness is (deliberately and appropriately) unclear. What is very clear however was "that damn idol" (as Varric might say) was very much a driving force.

[Vexille]

Templars are completely necessary, I think the Ferelden circle shows that it works well enough (The Eldred fiasco only occurred because they let him LEAVE after all ). Could it use reforms? Of course, the circle in Kirkwall was all kinds of messed up.

Sadly however, outside of banishing all mages to a remote island or killing them all there is no better alternative.

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Meredith served ably and faithfully as Kirkwall's Knight Commander for many years under very difficult circumstances.

Instituting a wide-range of anti-mage laws and failing to do something about the abuses under her command isn't something I would state as "serving ably". Especially not when prior to Meredith, the Circle was fine and functional -- as functional as it could be in a Hellmouth.

  The Templar Order's involvement in and oversight of the secular politics of Kirkwall had been an established precedent for some three decades or so by the time of Viscount Dumar's death.

Doesn't change the illegality of it, as Templars aren't meant to hold worldly power. Thrask says this and Bann Alfstanna's brother deliberately severed his ties to his noble birthright by joining the Templars.

Additionally, all of Kirkwall was against the Templars retaining power before she was blatant about her being in command of the political spectrum, from the nobles down to the servants.

  The exact point at which Meredith fell into madness is (deliberately and appropriately) unclear.

Not really. We know that she acquired the broken idol in Act II from Bartrand, and that when the idol is broken it's far more potent then when it was intact -- per Anders.

We see her constantly with that lyriumsaber in all of Act 3, and IIRC in Act 2 rumors were going around Kirkwall about how she was heard talking to herself in her office. 

I think it's clear that the moment she acquired it, she was gone for good.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 04:21 .

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

Meredith served ably and faithfully as Kirkwall's Knight Commander for many years under very difficult circumstances.  The Templar Order's involvement in and oversight of the secular politics of Kirkwall had been an established precedent for some three decades or so by the time of Viscount Dumar's death.  The exact point at which Meredith fell into madness is (deliberately and appropriately) unclear. What is very clear however was "that damn idol" (as Varric might say) was very much a driving force.

There isn't a precedent for the Knight-Commander becoming the de facto Viscount. It also isn't legal for templars to hold political office, based on what the devs said about Bann Alfstanna's brother, Irminric.

Regardless, Meredith never should have been permitted to supervise mages with her history.

[Dave of Canada]

Like you've said, we've heard about their strength though we've not directly seen it. The abilities of the player must always transcend the abilities of any threat they face, thus placing a lower value of the potential threat faced in combat. In addition, restrictions are imposed as the creature or person's abilities can only exist in the fragile bubble of combat.

To truly witness the threat of abominations and rogue mages, they need to be shown at their fullest within cutscenes and plot points. A blood mage manipulating the scenes must appear subtle, an abomination destroying a city must not.

We know lore-wise how dangerous they are, we just need to see it.

[TEWR]

I'd rather it be demonstrated through gameplay as well as cutscenes. Facing drunken brutes that call themselves Abominations is just silly.

The first way to do this would be to give them access to certain abilities based on the demon doing the possessing. Rage Demons should have access to Fireball, Firestorm, Elemental Weapons, and... hmm.... drunken brute attacks.

Oh, and Elemental Chaos from Awakening.

From my blog:

TEWR wrote...

I'd like to address demons and Abominations now. I think they need to begin to be a real challenge, depending on the level of the demon/abomination.

Rage Demons should use more Fire attacks. I say have them use Elemental Weapons, Fireball, and Firestorm. Rage Abominations should do these things along with their mindless drunkard style fighting because it's believable there. I'd also like to see the Abomination maybe pick up the enemy and throw them across the field in anger (this is actually something I wish Corypheus did in Legacy, but maybe when we see him again he'll do this)

Hunger Demons should use some more advanced spells. I'd like to see them use some Entropic spells along with abilities from the Elemental and Primal trees. They should also have an ability that drains the health of a character and replenishes their own.

Hunger Abominations should do all of these things as well as maybe eat a companion whole, for two reasons:

1) OM NOM NOM
2) It would add a new tactic if you lose one of your companions because he's been eaten whole (though he would return when the Abomination is defeated).

Sloth Demons and Abominations should also use Entropic spells, but they should also begin to use blood magic spells and some spells from the other trees. They should also make your companions fall asleep on the battlefield (which was in the Entropy tree) and then prey on that.

Desire Demons and Pride Demons should use the most advanced spells from each tree and use their own unique tactics with those trees. I'd also like to see the Desire Demons and Pride Demons use different attacks when they multiply themselves. In Legacy, all they did was the same attack, and they didn't even attack sometimes! Each one should use stuff like Firestorm, Tempest, Stonefist, etc when they multiply

I think I've made my point.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 04:31 .