304 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Cullen charging in Hawke/Gamlen house to get Bethany, why not he take Anders too? Eh? Because Anders is a Grey Warden.

No, it's because they don't know where he is.

[The Hierophant]

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...

[quote]Even though we've seen some good/nuetral mages there are also people like Danarius, Hadriana, Danzig, Decimus, Grace, Idunna, Tarohne, Lady Harimann, Gascard, Quentin, Orsino, Anders, Huon, Jowan, Uldred, Caladrius, The Baroness, and magisters of the Tevinter Imperium who adds weight to the Chantry's stance on mages.[/quote]

[quote]Danarius, Hadriana and Danzig are of Tevinter[/quote]
They are still scumbags of the highest order.
[quote]Decimus and Grace are runaway Circle mage who resolve to blood magic as a last resort to fight the Templar[/quote] Decimus was a psychopath who tries to kill you even if you are a mage, and Grace agreed with Decimus' tactics even though he was insane, and killed Thrask just to get at the player.

[quote]Idunna doing what she doing just for survival. She is no harm for normal people, just attacking Templar out of the Mage vs templar sentiment.[/quote]Idunna worked towards Tarohne's goal of restoring the glory of the Tevinter Imperium, which is a sh*t stain on humanties' collective conscience.

[quote]Tarohne also only attacking Templar[/quote]
^ see above.
[quote]Gascard de Puis, i don't know if he really bad, he use blood magic, but what ever the reason, there is no proof he is bad. Meredith sent apology letter to him.[/quote]He kidnapped innocent women and traded them to Quentin, a serial killer for magical research.

[quote]Quentin is just mad such as mad scientist[/quote]Cut multiple women to pieces including Leandra and assembled a frankenstein like zombie in the image of his dead wife.

[quote]Orsino also not bad, Bioware just want another boss fight. In anyway he resolve to blood magic because he panicked out. There is no proof he's bad[/quote]
Orsino knew what Quentin was doing, did nothing to stop him, and even showed interest in his research.

[quote]Huon is one of dangerous mage, doen't make every mages like him. In act one of my party member who fight him is also a mage, Anders (or Merill)[/quote]
A schizo who shanked his frightened wife to death.

[quote]Jowan, a blood mage, doesn't make him totally a bad guy. He make many mistakes, and he's willing to get punishment in the end. he don't pursue greater power. If we let him go, he help refugees.[/quote]
Lily stuck her neck out for him on a lie, he was also the catalyst for the siege at Redcliffe that killed a lot of the villagers, Earl Eamon would have died because of him.

[quote]Uldred an abomination. Before that he is a reformer from a liberal party. But because of he mingled with demonology, he become abomination. The one who do the evil thing is not him, but the demon. Check out my post about him in other post.[/quote]
Uldred threw a hissy fit, and assaulted his fellow mages because Wynne called him out on his bullcrap. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 août 2012 - 09:50 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

We have no evidence of any abuse other than him being dragged in chains which seems not enough to break a man's spirit considering a lot of mages are taken to the Circl in such a manner.

Dragging him away in chains and telling him he can't see his wife -- when the rich families get to see their Mage relatives -- will eventually start to break a man's spirit. This was the woman he loved. That's going to hurt considerably.

MisterJB wrote...
His good nature might have been reserved to elves and his change could be the result of having power at his fingertips like he never dreamed before and finally having the means to take his revenge on humanity.

He was a Mage his whole life. He was married to Nyssa when they took him away, so it's not like he was an 8 year old whelp that discovered he was a Mage when he was taken away.

Many templars in Kirkwall are abusive, no question, but I fail to see what kind of hummiliating punishment could lead him to kill his wife.

There are many possible abuses that could've contributed to his mind breaking. Rape, torture, abuse, etc.

[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...

Orsino knew what Quentin was doing, did nothing to stop him, and even showed interest in his research.

There is absolutely no evidence to say that Orsino did nothing to stop Quentin. All we know is that he didn't go to the Templars for aid. That's not the same thing as "doing nothing".

Considering he was in Kirkwall with a handful of Mages during the Qunari uprising, it can be assumed that he went out there to take care of Quentin -- unaware that he was already killed -- and told the Templars a lie so that they wouldn't question him or Annul the Circle.

Secondly, there is zero evidence to say that the research he supported was the Harvester research.

Considering that the books handed to Quentin by Orsino were specifically requested by Quentin -- and we don't know if Quentin took the necromancy books from Starkhaven's Circle or if they were the ones Orsino gave him. All we know is that Quentin had necromancy books -- then we have evidence to suggest that the research Quentin handed Orsino and that Orsino was fascinated by wasn't necromantical in nature.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 09:36 .

[The Hierophant]

Look at how late i responded to the posts, i seriously need to stop playing VGs and posting at the same time.

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Orsino knew what Quentin was doing, did nothing to stop him, and even showed interest in his research.

Oy...

There is absolutely no evidence to say that Orsino did nothing to stop Quentin. All we know is that he didn't go to the Templars for aid. That's not the same thing as "doing nothing".

Considering he was in Kirkwall with a few Mages during the Qunari uprising, it can be assumed that he went out there to take care of Quentin -- unaware that he was already killed -- and told the Templars a lie so that they wouldn't question him or Annul the Circle.

Secondly, there is zero evidence to say that the research he supported was the Harvester research.

I don't know about that, look at how shifty eyed Orsino is when you talk to him.(No Rascist)

[The Hierophant]

oops.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 août 2012 - 09:39 .

[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...

Look at how late i responded to the posts, i seriously need to stop playing VGs and posting at the same time.

Believe me, I've been there. It's hard to do both.

The Hierophant wrote...

Look at how shifty-eyed he is

I didn't see any shifty eyes in any Orsino scenes. 

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Dragging him away in chains and telling him he can't see his wife -- when the rich families get to see their Mage relatives -- will eventually start to break a man's spirit. This was the woman he loved. That's going to hurt considerably.

He stuck a knife in her chest, not the templars. That probrably hurt a lot more.

He was a Mage his whole life. He was married to Nyssa when they took him away, so it's not like he was an 8 year old whelp that discovered he was a Mage when he was taken away.

We don't know hold he is. Marriages in medieval times happened at a much younger age than in our age. If I remember correctly, Nyssa didn't know he was a mage before the templars appeared.

At any rate, learning to control his power could have still planted megalomaniac ideas in his head about true elven power.

There are many possible abuses that could've contributed to his mind breaking. Rape, torture, abuse, etc.

It's a possibility, yes. But we don't have evidence he was ever abused.

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Look at how late i responded to the posts, i seriously need to stop playing VGs and posting at the same time.

Believe me, I've been there. It's hard to do both.

The Hierophant wrote...

Look at how shifty-eyed he is

I didn't see any shifty eyes in any Orsino scenes. 

Nah, it's okay i was just being irrationaly biased against Orsino. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 août 2012 - 09:48 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

He stuck a knife in her chest, not the templars. That probrably hurt a lot more.

He probably killed some Templars before we met him but after some Templars helped him escape.

At any rate, you're using what he did when he was insane and had a broken mind to.... do what exactly? It's not pertinent to how I'm saying the Circle caused his mind to snap leading him to do what he did.

It seems like.... circular logic.

Unless it was just supposed to be a witty remark of sorts, in which case my bad.

MisterJB wrote...

We don't know hold he is. Marriages in medieval times happened at a much younger age than in our age. If I remember correctly, Nyssa didn't know he was a mage before the templars appeared.

1) Thedas isn't medieval times. There are some similarities sure, but not everything can be reduced to "It was true in medieval times, so it's probably true for Thedas as well". Not that you're trying to reduce everything to that, mind you. Just merely stating that Thedas isn't medieval times.

2) Elves in Dragon Age seem to be married to another family when they're 18 at least, if the City Elf Origin is anything to go off of.

3) The toolset may be able to shed some light on how old they are -- as through it, we were able to learn Marethari's age in DAO. So maybe we can do the same for DAII.

4) Nyssa seemed to be in her late 20s -- though with the ungodly hairstyle of someone who's going bald at way too young an age. I'd be comfortable if that hairstyle was never seen again except on old crones in Thedas. But that's neither here nor there.

MisterJB wrote...

It's a possibility, yes. But we don't have evidence he was ever abused.

Certainly. I'm not saying it did happen, but given the prejudice towards Elves and how easily the system abuses them in so many ways, it's incredibly likely.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 10:09 .

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

yes, but their crime is attacking Templar, not attacking normal people. Idunna attack Hawke with blood magic for survival and Hawke is investigating the case for the Templar. In anyway, they are NOT Tevinter, they just crazy claimed to be acting on behalf of Tevinter. It is like Japanese or Indonesian n.a.z.i Punk kids who think they are German n.a.z.i

The victims were recruits like Keran who were not full fledged templar like Thrask, or Cullen. The point for that list was to show that for every decent mage out there, there are power hungry douches, and psychopaths who give the public, Chantry/Templars reason to be wary.

Just so you know, i don't approve of the bigotry, abuses inflicted upon the circle mages by the Templars, but complete dissolution of the order without a substitute looks like a recipe for disaster.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 août 2012 - 10:09 .

[DPSSOC]

[quote]BrotherWarth wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]BrotherWarth wrote...
"The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. We must put all of the yellow people in internment camps."
"Muslim extremists attacked the World Trade Center and the United States government on 9/11. Bomb all the Arabs."

Do
you see why this logic is dangerous? Though DA2 tries to make it a
matter of shades of grey, the Templar/Mage conflict is quite one-sided
because the Templars oppress all mages, not just the dangerous
ones.[/quote]

Except that's not the logic at all. The reasoning
behind the Circle isn't, "some mages did something bad so lock them up,"
it's "if a mage does lose control they can do a lot of damage and
there's no way for ordinary people to defend themselves."[/quote]

See my other post-

[quote]BrotherWarth wrote...
"Children born in high-crime
inner-city areas are more likely to commit violent crimes later in life.
Let's put them all in prison before they get a chance to grow up and
become criminals."

[/quote]

[/quote]

Again, not the logic.  There is no real world comparisson.  The fear isn't that mages will do something wrong, that's there but it's small.  The fear is what a mage can do by accident, the danger he poses if something goes wrong.  If there's a chance that I could spontaneously explode, with no means of predicting when or where and no guarantees of preventing it, I need to be kept away from people.  It's not my fault but simply by existing I'm a danger to those around me, so to protect the public I need to be isolated from them, surrounded by people capable of containing the explosion should prevention fail.  It's like a man juggling nitrogliceryn, no matter how skilled he is if he ever drops one everyone around him is dead.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...
So, mages are HUMAN (or ELF), all human are the same. Their ambition are the same with other human, their weaknesses are also the same with other human.[/quote]

And here's the problem, if the mages want to be free then they have to acknowledge that they can't afford the luxury of being just human. They can't afford to be petty, or selfish, or get angry, or jealous, because if they do, if they fail in any of the numerous ways people fail every day, people die.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...
Magephobic and paranoia of the Chantry is ridiculous.
[/quote]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...
It is all just paranoia by the Chantry, not all Mages are Tevinter, same like not all Muslims are Iraqis or Terrorists
[/quote]

Ok it's not paranoia, nor are the Chantry and the Templars Magephobic. Why? Because paranoia and phobias are inherrently irrational, where as the dangers presented by mages, and the heightened risk of possession, are very very real. A mage can, entirely by accident, kill a lot of people, it's the same way there are laws against homemade explosives. It's not because everyone who makes them is going to use them for illegal purposes, it's because if something goes wrong it's a danger to public safety. It'd be different if there were no basis for idea that demons are attracted to mages, or if doing harm with magic was actually impossible, but that's not the case.[/quote]

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...
In anyway, Anders is a Grey Warden, even people sold him out, as a Grey Warden he is not subjected to Chantry/Circle/Templar law. He just hiding because don't want get involve in any problem with the Chantry/templar[/quote]

That explains why he works with the Mage Underground. Of course it all makes sense now, he helps mages break out of the Circle to avoid getting involved with the Templars, it's all so clear now.

Anders came to Kirkwall specifically to pick a fight with the Templars, he spends 7 years trying to pick a fight with the Templars, and when he finally realizes that he's fighting alone he forces every mage in Kirkwall to join in.

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...


[quote]Idunna worked towards Tarohne's goal of restoring the glory of the Tevinter Imperium, which is a sh*t stain on humanties' collective conscience.[/quote]yes, but their crime is attacking Templar, not attacking normal people. Idunna attack Hawke with blood magic for survival and Hawke is investigating the case for the Templar. In anyway, they are NOT Tevinter, they just crazy claimed to be acting on behalf of Tevinter. It is like Japanese or Indonesian n.a.z.i Punk kids who think they are German n.a.z.i[/quote]

They never claimed to work on behalf of Tevinter they claim to want to establish a second Tevinter. Tarohne's goal is to turn Kirkwall into Tevinter 2.0 where the normal people they're not attacking will be used as slaves to fuel their blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Demons can't operate that way

Actually, they can. The codex on Desire and Pride Demons in DAO told us that they can control minds and we have evidence to support that Demons are at their most powerful when in the Fade -- and when they're not in the Fade, they're weakened substantially.

Enthralling the person. We see the Desire Demon put the templar in a mind-induced 'reality' where he is protecting his wife and two children, not offering the templar to murder people after a few seconds long conversation for an absurd prize because of their persuasive abilities.

[LobselVith8]

Melca36 wrote...

Mages and Templars will likely ban together in the event of a massive Qunari invasion. And if defeated, mages will be granted more freedoms because I believe the Chantry has buried alot of secrets that will be revealed and they will lose power because of it.

That would be awful. Words can't convey how terrible that outcome would be. There shouldn't be a compromise; there should be victory for one side. It would be pointless otherwise.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Mages and Templars will likely ban together in the event of a massive Qunari invasion. And if defeated, mages will be granted more freedoms because I believe the Chantry has buried alot of secrets that will be revealed and they will lose power because of it.

That would be awful. Words can't convey how terrible that outcome would be. There shouldn't be a compromise; there should be victory for one side. It would be pointless otherwise.

They would like ban togehter, they would also so likely disban after the invasion. Origons showed us perfectly well that years of mistrust and hate don't unite people pass the common theath.
The magi boon- ignored
The dalish boon - it souned like in da2 that it went wrong
the city elves - Leader assassinated, purge of the aliange, you name it.

The common danger thing didn't work in da:o to unite people, there is no reason it should work in da3. They might agree in on a temporay truce, but once the danger is past they will go back to fighting each other.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Enthralling the person. We see the Desire Demon put the templar in a mind-induced 'reality' where he is protecting his wife and two children, not offering the templar to murder people after a few seconds long conversation for an absurd prize because of their persuasive abilities.

That's different for a few reasons:

1) That demon was in the real world, where her power was substantially reduced and the only way she could mind control someone was by binding her life to his and weaving an illusion.

2) She got what she wanted, whereas the others were prevented in some way or another by Hawke.

3) Desire Demons are known to be able to control minds and create illusions like the one the Templar suffered from -- or lived blissfully in, depending on your viewpoint*.

To further add to number 1: Indeed, Wilhelm himself posited that some of the thoughts he was thinking may have been the Desire Demon at work in some form, manipulating him. Again though, that Demon was in the real world and had weakened greatly.

See here, the codex entry on a Wisp:

A wisp is a demon that has lost its power; either it has existed in our world for too long without finding a true host or it has been destroyed—often, so we've found, by other demons

Which tells us that if a Demon is in the mortal realm but hasn't possessed something/become a Shade, not only is its power weakened from when it was in the Fade but this carries with it an immense risk to the Demon's life. 

Also see here, the codex entry on a Desire Demon:

Many who serve the whims of a desire demon never realize it. They are manipulated by illusions and deceit if not outright mind control, although these demons are reluctant to resort to such crude measures. Instead, they seem to take great pleasure in corruption. The greater the deceit, the greater their victory.

Remember how the Desire Demon in the Fade was trying to get Feynriel to accept her through trickery and guile. It's only when Feynriel runs away that she resorts to blatant mind domination in the realm where she's most powerful.

See here for further information, the codex entry on Demonic Possession:

Demons of desire are amongst the most powerful, and are the ones most likely to seek out the living and actively trick them into a deal. These demons will exploit anything that can be coveted—wealth, power, lust—and they will always end up getting far more than they give. A desire demon's province is that of illusions and mind control.

Finally, here's an additional segment from the aforementioned Desire Demon codex, talking about Pride Demons being more powerful:

Only demons of pride prove more fearsome opponents when roused. Their abilities to affect the mind allow them to assume disguises and even alter the environment to their purposes, not to mention the great strength and speed they possess if they should have to resort to more physical means.

The only real lore-breaking thing that happened was that the Desire Demon in Feynriel's "reality" was able to assume a disguise. But other then that, nothing. Remember, these Demons just had their plans thwarted. Going about something subtly isn't really going to happen now, as they're intent on taking someone with them -- be it through possession and/or just getting Hawke to leave.

Logically, we can deduce that since Desire Demons can use mind control, Pride Demons can as well because they're more powerful.

*As an aside, I'm curious as to various peoples' opinions on the Desire Demon's control of that Templar. Personally, while I view what she did as cruel and manipulative, I can't really say it was inherently evil.

She simply wanted love and a family and whatnot, and went about it in the only way she thought possible -- and she was probably right, as I doubt anyone would freely converse with a Demon that wanted that, as they'd probably view her as having an ulterior motive. Her desires seemed to be benign, even if her methods left something to be desired. Funnily, that's the same mindset Enchanter Brahm had, believing the Desire Demon he conversed with to simply be misunderstood.

It brings to mind something that Greed said in the FMA: Brotherhood dub.

Greed may not be good, but it's not bad either.

Extend that to all the psychological aspects Demons embody, and I find it to be true enough.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 01:36 .

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Tarohne have her plan to spread havoc on templar rank with her experiment ----. her target is Templar

1) Tarohne's plan was asenine. While I can get behind creating dissension, chaos, and all around general mayhem within the ranks of the Templars -- though not because I want to bring back the Imperium -- I can't get behind using Demons to do so.

Much less can I support using possessed Templar recruits, because they're uncontrollable. She may have been able to keep her skin and the skin of her supporters intact, but there's no telling what they'll do or who they'll kill within the Gallows. Innocent Mages and good Templars like Thrask may have died as a result of her plan.

2) She wanted to bring back the frickin' Imperium in Kirkwall. By operating off of that mindset, innocent people will suffer.

idunna don't harm civilians, he is a prostitute, she get money by sex --->her target is Hawke who investigate the missing templar

Gender Bender!

But anyway, she really only supported Tarohne out of fear. At least,  I think that''s what she said as to why she supported Tarohne.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 02:23 .