304 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

BrotherWarth wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...
"The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. We must put all of the yellow people in internment camps."
"Muslim extremists attacked the World Trade Center and the United States government on 9/11. Bomb all the Arabs."

Do
you see why this logic is dangerous? Though DA2 tries to make it a
matter of shades of grey, the Templar/Mage conflict is quite one-sided
because the Templars oppress all mages, not just the dangerous
ones.

Except that's not the logic at all. The reasoning
behind the Circle isn't, "some mages did something bad so lock them up,"
it's "if a mage does lose control they can do a lot of damage and
there's no way for ordinary people to defend themselves."

See my other post-

BrotherWarth wrote...
"Children born in high-crime
inner-city areas are more likely to commit violent crimes later in life.
Let's put them all in prison before they get a chance to grow up and
become criminals."

Again, not the logic.  There is no real world comparisson.  The fear isn't that mages will do something wrong, that's there but it's small.  The fear is what a mage can do by accident, the danger he poses if something goes wrong.  If there's a chance that I could spontaneously explode, with no means of predicting when or where and no guarantees of preventing it, I need to be kept away from people.  It's not my fault but simply by existing I'm a danger to those around me, so to protect the public I need to be isolated from them, surrounded by people capable of containing the explosion should prevention fail.  It's like a man juggling nitrogliceryn, no matter how skilled he is if he ever drops one everyone around him is dead.

Actually, there's a perfect real world comparison- the mentally ill. What used to happen to them? They were put in asylums, whether they were violent or not. What happened if they were difficult? They were lobotomized. It's probably not a coincidence that the 2 processes are so similar. The doctors and the Templars don't really understand what they're doing, but they know it makes docile, manageable rubes out of people they would rather not deal with otherwise.
Sure, some mentally ill people can pose a threat to themselves and/or others. But we don't round up everyone with symptoms of mental illness and lock them away in asylums any more. And we don't lobotomize those who are hard to manage any more. Such actions are rightly seen as barbaric and not justifiable. The Templars are not powerless but for shackles and prisons. They have great resources and skills. They could easily function more like a police force than the Gestapo they are.

THIS

Even taking lobotomy out of the equation.. A lot of people with mental illness compare taking meds like Lythium to a chemical lobotomy. If you have had contact with someone who was diagnosed you will know what I'm talking about. My cousin was a lively fun and active 18 year old. She now is more like a tranquil after having a bipolar crisis and being prescribed Lythium. You talk with her and is like she isn't there. Is it better than having her harm herself ? Certainly. Do I wish there was something else she could take that made her more like the girl she was before she got sick ? Yes with all my heart. 

[General User]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Actually, there's a perfect real world comparison- the mentally ill. What used to happen to them? They were put in asylums, whether they were violent or not. What happened if they were difficult? They were lobotomized. It's probably not a coincidence that the 2 processes are so similar. The doctors and the Templars don't really understand what they're doing, but they know it makes docile, manageable rubes out of people they would rather not deal with otherwise.

Sure, some mentally ill people can pose a threat to themselves and/or others. But we don't round up everyone with symptoms of mental illness and lock them away in asylums any more.

Even setting aside the historic hyperbole (which is… considerable), this is where your analogy comparing the treatment of mages in Thedas to the historic treatment of the mentally ill breaks down.  Not every mentally ill person represents a potential danger, but every single mage potentially does.

And the fact is we do "round up" persons showing symptoms of mental illness and lock them away in asylums, should those symptoms are severe enough.   Each jurisdictions has its own version of an involuntary committal process, but in most every such statute the key factor to consider is whether or not the person being involuntarily  committed poses a danger to themselves or others.  And the nature of magic in Thedas and it's relation to demons means that mages by their very nature pose just such a danger.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And we don't lobotomize those who are hard to manage any more. Such actions are rightly seen as barbaric and not justifiable.

Only we do lobotomize the "hard to manage".  Actually, those whose conditions have proven impossible to manage by other means are pretty much the only candidates for that sort of operation nowadays provided that the "hard to manage" person's doctors/caretakers/guardians determine that lobotomization would be the best course of treatment. 

In Dragon Age terms,for a mage that has been shown to be unable or unwilling to face the very real danger of  demons, tranquilizing them and removing that danger could reasonably be considered what's best for everyone involved.

BrotherWarth wrote…

The Templars are not powerless but for shackles and prisons. They have great resources and skills. They could easily function more like a police force than the Gestapo they are.

If you want a law enforcement analogy generic prison guards and US Marshals fits much better.  Templars keep mages contained and chase them down  when they escape.

Modifié par General User, 05 août 2012 - 09:49 .

[schalafi]

What I don't understand about DA2 is why they focused so much on abominations, demons, shades, and whatever other creatures they thought up for the game. Origins focused a little on demons, Darkspawn, and other foul creatures, but not constantly. I just got tired of blood mages becoming abominations every time you turned around.

It's almost as though the Devs couldn't think of a game involving more normal people having adventures, and doing brave deeds, at least some of the time. I liked the character development and the conversations and banter in the game, but on the whole I found the game depressing. And the 3rd Act was just disappointing.

I got really sick of all the depraved, insane people Hawke and the companions confronted almost every time they had a quest.

Modifié par schalafi, 05 août 2012 - 11:35 .

[LolaLei]

schalafi wrote...

What I don't understand about DA2 is why they focused so much on abominations, demons, shades, and whatever other creatures they thought up for the game. Origins focused a little on demons, Darkspawn, and other foul creatures, but not constantly. I just got tired of blood mages becoming abominations every time you turned around.

It's almost as though the Devs couldn't think of a game involving more normal people having adventures, and doing brave deeds, at least some of the time. I liked the character development and the conversations and banter in the game, but on the whole I found the game depressing. And the 3rd Act was just disappointing.

I got really sick of all the depraved, insane people Hawke and the companions confronted almost every time they had a quest.

I put that down to the game having such a short development cycle. Since they didn't have time to put as much detail into quests, storyline etc they just filled it up with a lot of fighting insane blood mages and zealot Templars.

[schalafi]

LolaLei wrote...

schalafi wrote...

What I don't understand about DA2 is why they focused so much on abominations, demons, shades, and whatever other creatures they thought up for the game. Origins focused a little on demons, Darkspawn, and other foul creatures, but not constantly. I just got tired of blood mages becoming abominations every time you turned around.

It's almost as though the Devs couldn't think of a game involving more normal people having adventures, and doing brave deeds, at least some of the time. I liked the character development and the conversations and banter in the game, but on the whole I found the game depressing. And the 3rd Act was just disappointing.

I got really sick of all the depraved, insane people Hawke and the companions confronted almost every time they had a quest.

I put that down to the game having such a short development cycle. Since they didn't have time to put as much detail into quests, storyline etc they just filled it up with a lot of fighting insane blood mages and zealot Templars.

Let's hope that DA3 goes in a different direction, and gives a more epic
rpg, with at least, some normal, satisfying quests.

[Renmiri1]

 

BrotherWarth wrote...

First off, it's clear you have a very limited knowledge of the care of mental illness. Lobotomies are no longer performed as treatment for mental illness and haven't been since the 1960s. Pharmaceuticals can reliably and safely achieve thedesired effect of lobotomies without drilling into a patient's skull and damaging their brain. .. [ snip ] 

 

You forgot electroshock therapy. It is almost as bad as lobotomy, in terms of damaging the brain. And it is still used.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 05 août 2012 - 11:52 .

[General User]

BrotherWarth wrote...

First off, it's clear you have a very limited knowledge of the care of mental illness. Lobotomies are no longer performed as treatment for mental illness and haven't been since the 1960s. Pharmaceuticals can reliably and safely achieve the desired effect of lobotomies without drilling into a patient's skull and damaging their brain. […]

And before you question my knowledge of mental health treatment, I was a mental health specialist in the US military.

First of all, thank you for your service.  I'm in no position to impugn your professionalism.  Nor would I try.   But the fact remains, while the techniques have been refined and updated over the years (as have all medical techniques), and it is no longer a first line treatment, lobotomies for the treatment of mental disorders (or "psychosurgery" to use the modern term) which do include "drilling into a patient's skull and [potentially] damaging their brain" are indeed still in use both in the United States and Europe.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And nearly every type of mental illness can lead to self-harm or harming others. Mental illness is unpredictable.

So is magic.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And no one can be institutionalized against their will any more unless they pose imminent danger to themselves or others. No one can know what a mentally ill may do if their condition worsens, just as no one can know what a mage may do if everything goes wrong.

Which leads to yet another instance in which you're analogy breaks down.  When something  "goes wrong" with a non-mage, they can pose a danger to themselves and the people around them.  When something "goes wrong" for a mage, entire communities can be wiped out.  That difference in scale alone makes using a similar, but stricter, standard a reasonable decision.

BrotherWarth wrote...

No prison guards get to decide if an inmate is going to be lobotomized, and no US Marshal rounds up every person who was born different.

No but prison guards will keep dangerous persons locked away.  And US Marshals will track a person down and bring them to jail.  In our society such matters are decided mainly by the Courts, in Thedas that role belongs to the Knight-Commander and/or the First Enchanter of the particular Circle in question.

Of course, every analogy breaks down if you take it far enough.  But Gestapo!?!  That's just hyperbole.

Modifié par General User, 06 août 2012 - 12:06 .

[Renmiri1]

schalafi wrote...

What I don't understand about DA2 is why they focused so much on abominations, demons, shades, and whatever other creatures they thought up for the game. Origins focused a little on demons, Darkspawn, and other foul creatures, but not constantly. I just got tired of blood mages becoming abominations every time you turned around.

It's almost as though the Devs couldn't think of a game involving more normal people having adventures, and doing brave deeds, at least some of the time. I liked the character development and the conversations and banter in the game, but on the whole I found the game depressing. And the 3rd Act was just disappointing.

I got really sick of all the depraved, insane people Hawke and the companions confronted almost every time they had a quest.

David Gaider said they went overboard with blood mages in an effort to make the Templar side more justifiable. Without all those insane blood mages, siding with mages would be almost a given so they tried to make you see the Templar side of things. They just lost sight of balance and Kirkwall turned into a blood-mage palooza.

[General User]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Psychosurgery is a term coined by the man who created the lobotomy procedure and tools. It is not a modern term and is NOT a procedure still performed in the US and UK.

Just do yourself a favor and check up on that before you go making that assertion somewhere that matters.  I won't do any serious research for you, but since you wore a uniform, I will point you in the right direction: psychosurgery is used to treat severe (almost always otherwise completely untreatable) bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and major depression.   Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston is a preeminent centre for these procedures in the US.

BrotherWarth wrote...
Magic also being unpredictable is hardly an argument in your favor. It does nothing to strenghten your side here.

My "side" (such as it is) believes magic is inherently dangerous and that the general public needs to be protected from it and those who would abuse it.

BrotherWarth wrote...

It's not as though one insane person can't cause many deaths. The recent theater shooting serves as an example. Saying "But mages can become abominations and abominations can kill lots of people" is not a reason to imprison every mage just as a single crazy person massacreing a crowded theater is not a reason to imprison every mentally ill person.

And that was with a gun.  Imagine if the insane person of your choice didn't even need a gun.  Imagine if they could shoot fire and lightning from their hands and throw entire crowds of people across the room with a wave of their arm.  Imagine if they could enter a person's mind and force that person to slit their own throat.  And, if things go really wrong, turn into a horror that can rip people apart with the claws that were once their bare hands.   Now imagine that this sort of thing were no aberration, but a real and constantly present threat for every single mage.  And that there were innumerable, incredibly powerful, malevolent, ancient beings (ie the demons) trying desperately to make all that happen. 

And, while we're at it, let's not get too too bogged down in one-off events like rampages and abominations.  Just plain old human corruption and moral failings, when they show in a mage have the potential to be far more devastating than anything similar in a non-mage.

BrotherWarth wrote...

The people of Thedas fear mages because they have more power.

Anyone who's afraid of things that have less power than them is usually doing "fear" wrong.

BrotherWarth wrote...

It doesn't matter to them that mages becoming abominations is a rare occurance.

Rare or not, mages becoming abominations is a real occurrence in Thedas and is positively devastating when it happens.  The general public has a right to be protected from such events.  The Circle, or a Circle-like system, is a reasonable way to provide that protection.

Modifié par General User, 06 août 2012 - 01:44 .

[Melca36]

Renmiri1 wrote...

schalafi wrote...

What I don't understand about DA2 is why they focused so much on abominations, demons, shades, and whatever other creatures they thought up for the game. Origins focused a little on demons, Darkspawn, and other foul creatures, but not constantly. I just got tired of blood mages becoming abominations every time you turned around.

It's almost as though the Devs couldn't think of a game involving more normal people having adventures, and doing brave deeds, at least some of the time. I liked the character development and the conversations and banter in the game, but on the whole I found the game depressing. And the 3rd Act was just disappointing.

I got really sick of all the depraved, insane people Hawke and the companions confronted almost every time they had a quest.

David Gaider said they went overboard with blood mages in an effort to make the Templar side more justifiable. Without all those insane blood mages, siding with mages would be almost a given so they tried to make you see the Templar side of things. They just lost sight of balance and Kirkwall turned into a blood-mage palooza.

Didn't matter to me. I still sided with the mages. :lol:


David Gaider also said he wished there had been more neutral mages too. 

[Xilizhra]

Rare or not, mages becoming abominations is a real occurrence in Thedas and is positively devastating when it happens. The general public has a right to be protected from such events. The Circle, or a Circle-like system, is a reasonable way to provide that protection.

The Circle as it stands is wholly unreasonable. There are possibilities for protective systems around, but none would have anything to do with the Chantry or the current templars.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rare or not, mages becoming abominations is a real occurrence in Thedas and is positively devastating when it happens. The general public has a right to be protected from such events. The Circle, or a Circle-like system, is a reasonable way to provide that protection.

The Circle as it stands is wholly unreasonable. There are possibilities for protective systems around, but none would have anything to do with the Chantry or the current templars.

All such alternatives I've seen presented are reactive, stuff goes wrong and mages or mage hunters move in, that's not good enough.  We are dealing with nuclear reactor levels of destructive potential it is not enough to prepare for what happens when things go wrong, you need to establish means of preventing it from happening.  No non-Circle system I've seen does the latter.

[Xilizhra]

Reaction is the only moral option when dealing with mages who aren't possessed, otherwise it's just assuming guilt. As I said in the other thread, the primary goal here should be to protect the mages by preventing possession, with the secondary goal setting up defensive lines in case one is possessed. Personally, I'm considering some kind of rune placed on a mage's forehead that explodes and blows their head off if they become possessed...

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Reaction is the only moral option when dealing with mages who aren't possessed, otherwise it's just assuming guilt. As I said in the other thread, the primary goal here should be to protect the mages by preventing possession, with the secondary goal setting up defensive lines in case one is possessed. Personally, I'm considering some kind of rune placed on a mage's forehead that explodes and blows their head off if they become possessed...

Can you imagine the sh*tstorm if the rune activates when it mixes the signal of possession with sexual excitement.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 06 août 2012 - 02:47 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, obviously the testing done beforehand would need to be extensive...

Of course, to be fair, maybe nonmages should get it as well. If nothing else, it'd blow up any undead who tried to rise.

[Ravensword]

Sounds fair.

[The Hierophant]

So anyone here reads Malazan Book of the Fallen? If so/not then what do think about otataral (magic deadening ore),and how it would impact Thedas if a similiar element existed?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 06 août 2012 - 03:17 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Reaction is the only moral option when dealing with mages who aren't possessed, otherwise it's just assuming guilt.

 
Well which moral scale are we using?  Are we going by a strict numbers game of the most good for the most people?  Are we placing mages on a pedestal and saying that they're good is more valuable than the common good?  Or are we going by the idea that it is immoral to harm or sacrifice the few for the many?  Cause to me it is immoral to subject the general populace to the dangers of magic with nothing but hope that should something go awry the anti-mage force (let's call them Ralpmets) barracks potentially miles away will get word and send help before they get killed. I find it particularly abhorrent when there is an established systme that, if properly managed, works far better.  Setting the mages loose is essentially like my government telling me it is illegal and I will be puyt in prison if I defend myself against someone who attacks me.  It's entirely possible I will go my entire life without ever being assaulted and as such the law is not an issue, but if someone should attack me, and I'm stuck waiting for somebody to call the police and the police to show up, I'm a dead man.

Xilizhra wrote...
Personally, I'm considering some kind of rune placed on a mage's forehead that explodes and blows their head off if they become possessed...

Short of branding it into their foreheads (ouch by the way) what makes you think mages will keep such a rune on their foreheads?  Besides that only addresses part of what makes mages dangerous.  As I've said in other threads as well as this one accidents can happen when dealing with magic, and the results can be disasterous.  We see an apprentice start, lose control of, and being engulfed in a blazing inferno, what would have happened had his instructor not been there?  How quickly could a similar fire spread through a town or village?  Can magical fire be extinguished with water?  Wilhelm's another good example.  His experiments with Shale ended up with Shale killing him.  What would have happened if she hadn't stopped there?  What kind of defence could those people have put up if Shale had just kept going until everything in the immediate vicinity was dead.

My concern is not demonic possession, or what mages will choose to do with their power, my concern is what happens when a mage has a whoopsie in the middle of a population center.

[DPSSOC]

Mages are not the least of us. Mages have it pretty sweet, and that's accounting for the ill behaved Templars. They have food, clothing, shelter, and education; they maintain a lifestyle that most commoners would kill for. Yes they suffer abuse from the Templars but the commoners and poor suffer abuse too. It's why I never got the Mage Warden whining about the Circle. There's nothing to indicate he or she has sufferred abuse from the Templars, as Irving's star pupil, so he/she literally has nothing to comlain about.