304 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Vexille wrote...

Templars are completely necessary, I think the Ferelden circle shows that it works well enough (The Eldred fiasco only occurred because they let him LEAVE after all ). Could it use reforms? Of course, the circle in Kirkwall was all kinds of messed up.

Sadly however, outside of banishing all mages to a remote island or killing them all there is no better alternative.

Uldred's rebellion transpired because they wanted freedom from the Chantry and the templars. As for whether anti-mage soldiers who think they have "dominion over mages by divine right" are necessary, I don't agree.

And I think there are better alternatives to the Chantry controlled Circles.

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Instituting a wide-range of anti-mage laws and failing to do something
about the abuses under her command isn't something I would state as
"serving ably". Especially not when prior to Meredith, the Circle was
fine and functional -- as functional as it could be in a Hellmouth.

The Circle was fine and functional for years after Meredith became Knight-Commander too.  And, it's my understanding that Meredith didn't institute any anti-mage laws, but was instead rather vigorous in enforcing the ones that already existed.  Refresh my memory, when did Meredith fail to do something about abuses taking place under her command?

Doesn't change the illegality of it,

It kinda does.  To a large extent, precedent IS law.  Certainly in a practical sense at any rate.

as Templars aren't meant to hold worldly power. Thrask says this and Bann Alfstanna's brother deliberately severed his ties to his noble birthright by joining the Templars.

That's a huge part of what I was referring to by "difficult circumstances."  The Templar Order, let alone individual Templars (mind the distinction!), were not supposed to hold secular power, yet that was exactly the arena Meredith was thrust into when Viscount Threnhold(?) killed her predecessor.

Additionally, all of Kirkwall was against the Templars retaining power, from the nobles down to the servants.

Not all of Kirkwall.  Meredith had her own base of support in Kirkwall's noble and common populace.  Sure, some of that support was bought at sword point, but that by itself isn't terribly unusual.

Not really. We know that she acquired the broken idol in Act II from Bartrand, and that when the idol is broken it's far more potent then when it was intact -- per Anders.

We see her constantly with that lyriumsaber in all of Act 3, and IIRC in Act 2 rumors were going around Kirkwall about how she was heard talking to herself in her office. 

I think it's clear that the moment she acquired it, she was gone for good.

I think so too.  I just wonder how long Meredith had that idol before she decided to turn it into a sword.  And did she seek out the idol?  Or did it seek out her?

Modifié par General User, 03 août 2012 - 04:52 .

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

Meredith served ably and faithfully as Kirkwall's Knight Commander for many years under very difficult circumstances.  The Templar Order's involvement in and oversight of the secular politics of Kirkwall had been an established precedent for some three decades or so by the time of Viscount Dumar's death.  The exact point at which Meredith fell into madness is (deliberately and appropriately) unclear. What is very clear however was "that damn idol" (as Varric might say) was very much a driving force.

There isn't a precedent for the Knight-Commander becoming the de facto Viscount. It also isn't legal for templars to hold political office, based on what the devs said about Bann Alfstanna's brother, Irminric.

You're correct.  You seem to be missing the point.  But you are correct.  You see, the precedent in Kirkwall was that the Templar Order could fill the Viscount's seat with whomever they choose, not that the Order or any of it's members could fill that role themselves. 

For the Meredith and Templar Order to step up and restore order to the city following the qunari attack was understandable, even laudable.  The problem came when years went by and Meredith still had not filled the Viscount's seat.  IOW, She attempted to wield interim power on an permanent basis.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Regardless, Meredith never should have been permitted to supervise mages with her history.

Meredith's personal history let's her understand first hand just how destructive abominations can be.  In another person such  history could drive them to be a vigiliant guadian for the general public.

Modifié par General User, 03 août 2012 - 04:57 .

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

The Circle was fine and functional for years after Meredith became Knight-Commander too.

Not so. Mages not only ran from the Circle to gain freedom as is typically expected, but to escape abuses. Eventually, these Mages formed an alliance to help one another, as early as Act 1. The citizens themselves helped the abused Mages stay free.

A lot of the abuses that happened in the Gallows caused more Abominations and blood mages that the city faced. I'd hardly call that functional.

Both Tobrius and Thrask will state that the Circle has worsened since Meredith took power.

  And, it's my understanding that Meredith didn't institute any anti-mage laws, but was instead rather vigorous in enforcing the ones that already existed.

I believe either Tobrius or Thrask say otherwise, but as my memory isn't very sharp on this point I'll leave it at a standstill.

  Refresh my memory, when did Meredith fail to do something about abuses taking place under her command?

Illegal Tranquilizations, abusing the Mages causing them to become desperate, using those desperate acts as cause to be more strict on the Mages rather then the perpetrators, abusing (Tranquil) Mages simply for talking to people, etc.

Chantry law states that Harrowed Mages cannot be made Tranquil (without sufficient cause I imagine) and that there is to be a record of all Tranquilizations committed, as heard in the Magi Origin. A writ of authorization is to be signed and sealed by the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, respectively.

Orsino happens to be very vocal about the abuses committed within the Gallows and we know that Ser Alrik was going through with many unauthorized Tranquilizations.

If more and more Mages -- some Harrowed -- are popping up and the Knight Commander fails to act on these things, she either tacitly allowed them or is blindly incompetent for the role of Knight-Commander. There is no other answer, because if she didn't authorize them inquiries should've been made.

Meredith took power in 9:21 Dragon and immediately began changing Kirkwall for the worse. Orsino became First Enchanter as early as 9:26 Dragon -- maybe earlier, depending on if any codex entries other then the SoV say something -- and starting becoming publically vocal against the Knight-Commander in 9:31-9:32 Dragon.

It kinda does.  To a large extent, precedent IS law.  Certainly in a practical sense at any rate.

The Divine of the first quarter of the Dragon Age abused her authority and forced the Templars to become politically involved when it wasn't their role. Knight-Commander Guylian said so in a letter to Divine Beatrix III:

Taxes was crippling and Perrin Threnhold used the ancient chains extending from "the Twins" standing at Kirkwall's harbour - Unused since the New Exalted Marches - to block sea traffic and charge exorbitant fees from Orlesian ships. The Empire threatened invasion following the closure of the waking sea passage, and for the first time, the chantry used the templars to pressure the viscount.

Until that point, the templars had done nothing to counter the Threnholds even though, as the largest armed force in Kirkwall, they could have. Knight-Commander Guylian's only written comment was in a letter to Divine Beatrix III: "It is not our place to interfere in political affairs. We are here to safeguard the city against magic, not against itself." The Divine, as a friend to the emperor clearly had other ideas.

It's a clear violation of the purpose of the Order from when they were first taken into the Chantry, and whispers circulated that the Templars only fought back against Perrin Threnhold so as to preserve their illegal place in the realm of politics.

Not only that, this showcases how the Divine of the Chantry and the Emperors/Empresses of Orlais often rely on one another to solve the other's problems.

The Chantry are the ones who have political influence within the realm of Thedas -- and whether that's a good thing is a matter of contention. The Templars are not supposed to. How Kirkwall was run -- whether it was tyrannical, brutal, efficient, chaotic, or perfect -- is a matter that Kirkwall itself is supposed to handle.

The Templars being involved in the political scene may have been authorized by the Chantry, but that doesn't change the illegality of it. Indeed, Divine Beatrix III died in 9:34 Dragon and Justinia V ascended to the seat of the Chantry's dominance, yet failed to rescind the edict that placed the Templars in their position of power -- in addition to failing to send any Seekers to investigate the abuses committed at the Gallows and why Meredith had usurped the Viscount's office.

It's interesting to note that Orlais has now ruled Kirkwall twice: The first time after one of the Blights caused Kirkwall to rely on Orlesian aid and Orlais failed to leave when Kirkwall stood on its own and the second being now, where the Chantry bears its breath upon the necks of the spineless politicians they appoint to the "seat of power", refusing anyone that has some backbone -- or influence -- from even ascending to the seat of the Viscount because it'd conflict with their motives..

That's a huge part of what I was reffering to by "difficult circumstances."  The Templar Order, let alone individual Templars (mind the distinction!), were not supposed to hold secular power, yet that was exactly the arena Meredith was thrust into when Viscount Threnhold(?) killed her predecessor.

Viscount Threnhold only killed her predecessor when the Chantry stepped in to help Orlais not pay wages into the city -- which was something Threnhold only did because it seemed Kirkwall was suffering from an economic starvation.

While he was mistaken in trying to boot out the Templars wholesale, he also wasn't wrong in trying to get them out of the political spectrum as Divine Beatrix III wanted them to be.

Not all of Kirkwall.  Meredith had her own base of support in Kirkwall's noble and common populace.  Sure, some of that support was bought at sword point, but that by itself isn't terribly unusual.

I wouldn't call that support then. That would simply be coercion. Effective? Sure, but it's not support in the way I'd personally define it.

No different then Bann Ceorlic possibly supporting Loghain simply out of fear for what the latter may due to the former's lands, because the former's lands border the teyrnir of Gwaren.

I think so too.  I just wonder how long Meredith had that idol before she decided to turn it into a sword.  And did she seek out the idol?  Or did it seek out her?

I imagine that was her first order of business when she got it. And I believe Bartrand made it a point to make it known he was selling it, and Meredith simply caught wind of it and bought it -- paying a great deal for it.

General User wrote...

You're correct.  You seem to be missing the point.  But you are correct.  You see, the precedent in Kirkwall was that the Templar Order could fill the Viscount's seat with whomever they choose, not that the Order or any of it's members could fill that role themselves

The problem is that this is so easily circumvented by the Templars, especially when the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall is little more then a malleable thing of clay.

They are the same thing. Whoever the Templars place into the seat of the Viscount is effectively serving their interests, meaning they're the ones pulling the strings and they're the ones in the seat, even if it's not directly stated or visible.

General User wrote...

Meredith's personal history let's her understand first hand just how destructive abominations can be.  In another person such  history could drive them to be a vigiliant guadian for the general public.

The problem here arises when said person's mental faculties and ability to be neutral and unbiased are jeopardized because of her past trauma. And indeed, it's (nigh) impossible to actually remain such. You don't need to witness your sister* killing an entire village to understand the threat Mages pose, when Templars routinely see such things in Mages they may not have ever known. And especially when you have accounts by previous Templars of what can indeed happen.

She may know the threat Mages pose, but she also focuses blindly on that point that she ignores the other important things: that Mages are people, and to treat them as anything but will cause more harm then good.

*Considering that she tells us this information when she's possessed by the crazy lyriumsaber, the authenticity of her claims on having a sister that became possessed after remaing free of the Circle is a bit.... shaky 

And if it is true, it was only done because of the fear of losing a child that you also saw with Isolde. Not to magic, but just to being unable to visit them or see them again. A fear the Chantry controlled Circles has created, continued, and failed to really make go away.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 05:32 .

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

You're correct.  You seem to be missing the point.  But you are correct.  You see, the precedent in Kirkwall was that the Templar Order could fill the Viscount's seat with whomever they choose, not that the Order or any of it's members could fill that role themselves.  

For the Meredith and Templar Order to step up and restore order to the city following the qunari attack was understandable, even laudable.  The problem came when years went by and Meredith still had not filled the Viscount's seat.  IOW, She attempted to wield interim power on an permanent basis.

The precedent of the templars overstepping their bounds by meddling in political affairs?

Furthermore, it isn't laudable for Meredith to use the Qunari siege to seize power. The City Guard are the ones who restore order while Meredith's death squad was killing people.

General User wrote...

Meredith's personal history let's her understand first hand just how destructive abominations can be.  In another person such  history could drive them to be a vigiliant guadian for the general public.

Meredith's personal history puts mages in danger, as the actual scenario demonstrated.

[TEWR]

Indeed, the only thing the Templars were supposed to do during the Qunari siege was push back against the Qunari, providing reinforcements to the City Guard, Mages, and Hawke.

Afterwards, the City Guard was supposed to step up and keep order.

[General User]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Not so. Mages not only ran from the Circle to gain freedom as is typically expected, but to escape abuses. Eventually, these Mages formed an alliance to help one another, as early as Act 1. The citizens themselves helped the abused Mages stay free.
[/quote]If Anders' history as an apostate in Ferelden would be any evidence, such things were hardly atypical.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A lot of the abuses that happened in the Gallows caused more Abominations and blood mages that the city faced. I'd hardly call that functional. [/quote]The phrase "vicious cycle" springs to mind.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Both Tobrius and Thrask will state that the Circle has worsened since Meredith took power. [/quote]Worse for mages certainly.  But the Circles weren't really run for their benefit in the first place, were they?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Illegal Tranquilizations, abusing the Mages causing them to become desperate, using those desperate acts as cause to be more strict on the Mages rather then the perpetrators, abusing (Tranquil) Mages simply for talking to people, etc.

Chantry law states that Harrowed Mages cannot be made Tranquil (without sufficient cause I imagine) and that there is to be a record of all Tranquilizations committed, as heard in the Magi Origin. A writ of authorization is to be signed and sealed by the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, respectively.

Orsino happens to be very vocal about the abuses committed within the Gallows and we know that Ser Alrik was going through with many unauthorized Tranquilizations.

If more and more Mages -- some Harrowed -- are popping up and the Knight Commander fails to act on these things, she either tacitly allowed them or is blindly incompetent for the role of Knight-Commander. There is no other answer, because if she didn't authorize them inquiries should've been made. [/quote]You're right.  Meredith did fail in her duty as Knight-Commander.  But there potentially are factors that could mitigate or excuse her failure.  For example, if Alrik(?) and his compatriots were actively concealing mages they made tranquil.   Unauthorized tranquilizations are just that, unauthorized.  The thing is, it's not certain Meredith knew or condoned any such thing, if and when they even took place. 

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


It's a clear violation of the purpose of the Order from when they were first taken into the Chantry, and whispers circulated that the Templars only fought back against Perrin Threnhold so as to preserve their illegal place in the realm of politics.

Not only that, this showcases how the Divine of the Chantry and the Emperors/Empresses of Orlais often rely on one another to solve the other's problems.

The Chantry are the ones who have political influence within the realm of Thedas -- and whether that's a good thing is a matter of contention. The Templars are not supposed to. How Kirkwall was run -- whether it was tyrannical, brutal, efficient, chaotic, or perfect -- is a matter that Kirkwall itself is supposed to handle.

The Templars being involved in the political scene may have been authorized by the Chantry, but that doesn't change the illegality of it. Indeed, Divine Beatrix III died in 9:34 Dragon and Justinia V ascended to the seat of the Chantry's dominance, yet failed to rescind the edict that placed the Templars in their position of power -- in addition to failing to send any Seekers to investigate the abuses committed at the Gallows and why Meredith had usurped the Viscount's office.

It's interesting to note that Orlais has now ruled Kirkwall twice: The first time after one of the Blights caused Kirkwall to rely on Orlesian aid and Orlais failed to leave when Kirkwall stood on its own and the second being now, where the Chantry bears its breath upon the necks of the spineless politicians they appoint to the "seat of power", refusing anyone that has some backbone -- or influence -- from even ascending to the seat of the Viscount because it'd conflict with their motives.. [/quote]Like I said, very difficult circumstances.  On the one hand the Templar Order had become involved, to a large extent unwillingly, in secular political matters they never should have been involved in.  On the other hand, the Order still had its own imperatives and integrity to preserve.  You could fault Meredith for falling off the deep end, and you'd not be wrong, but the truth is she was walking one hell of a tight rope from day one.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Viscount Threnhold only killed her predecessor when the Chantry stepped in to help Orlais not pay wages into the city -- which was something Threnhold only did because it seemed Kirkwall was suffering from an economic starvation.

While he was mistaken in trying to boot out the Templars wholesale, he also wasn't wrong in trying to get them out of the political spectrum as Divine Beatrix III wanted them to be. [/quote]Or Threnhold was a greedy warlord who one day went too far.  It's kinda one of those "depends on who you ask" things.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I wouldn't call that support then. That would simply be coercion. Effective? Sure, but it's not support in the way I'd personally define it. [/quote]The thing of it is Meredith and the Templars always had fairly prominent support, it was only when Meredith refused to relinquish her power following the qunari attack that that support started to splinter and fray.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The problem is that this is so easily circumvented by the Templars, especially when the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall is little more then a malleable thing of clay.

They are the same thing. Whoever the Templars place into the seat of the Viscount is effectively serving their interests, meaning they're the ones pulling the strings and they're the ones in the seat, even if it's not directly stated or visible. [/quote]Perception is 9/10th's.  There are forms to be obeyed.  Etc. Etc.  Pick you're cliché.  Did you know that Augustus never took the title of Emperor?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The problem here arises when said person's mental faculties and ability to be neutral and unbiased are jeopardized because of her past trauma. And indeed, it's (nigh) impossible to actually remain such. You don't need to witness your sister* killing an entire village to understand the threat Mages pose, when Templars routinely see such things in Mages they may not have ever known. And especially when you have accounts by previous Templars of what can indeed happen.

She may know the threat Mages pose, but she also focuses blindly on that point that she ignores the other important things: that Mages are people, and to treat them as anything but will cause more harm then good.

*Considering that she tells us this information when she's possessed by the crazy lyriumsaber, the authenticity of her claims on having a sister that became possessed after remaing free of the Circle is a bit.... shaky

And if it is true, it was only done because of the fear of losing a child that you also saw with Isolde. Not to magic, but just to being unable to visit them or see them again. A fear the Chantry controlled Circles has created, continued, and failed to really make go away. [/quote]You're right, it's very much a whole person standard that needs to be in place.  What I was getting at was rather that a person having a traumatic history with mages, or even being broadly hostile to mages in general shouldn't by itself disqualify that person form serving as a warden or custodian for mages.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The precedent of the templars overstepping their bounds by meddling in political affairs? [/quote]That's the one.  Like it or love it, that's the situation on the ground people in Kirkwall had to deal with.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Furthermore, it isn't laudable for Meredith to use the Qunari siege to seize power. The City Guard are the ones who restore order while Meredith's death squad was killing people.[/quote]Once again, you are quite correct, but seem to be missing the point.  It is laudable for  Meredith to use the Templar Order to repel the qunari and restore order in Kirkwall.  It was in Meredith's failure to take the next step (any next step) and reestablish a secular/civil government that the problem occurred.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith's personal history puts mages in danger, as the actual scenario demonstrated.[/quote] Meredith's (lyrium-idol driven) insanity was what put mages in danger. 

Modifié par General User, 03 août 2012 - 07:01 .

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

If Anders' history as an apostate in Ferelden would be any evidence, such things were hardly atypical.

True, and I'd wager that he is in fact telling the truth. It's not like the Fereldan Circle Tower is free of abuse towards mages -- as we see in the comics.

The phrase "vicious cycle" springs to mind.

And it'd be an accurate one.

]Worse for mages certainly.

Worse for everyone. The Mages, the good Templars that have now dwindled in number amongst fair Kirkwall, and the populus at large who are related to the Mages/friends to the Mages/just want things to go back to normal again.

The problems with the Mages affect more then just the Mages and Templars -- a thought the Warden-Commander of Amaranthine can echo to Wynne.

  But the Circles weren't really run for their benefit in the first place, were they?

Well, parts of the idea were. A place they could train and hone their abilities and learn how to protect themselves from Demons? That was a benefit, even if its execution left much to be desired. 

A place where Mage and Templar could work together and study the Fade so as to be better prepared against malevolent and mystical foes? That was a benefit, though you don't see much demonology or Fade study practiced in the Circles these days. More often then not, it's practiced in secrecy because the Chantry won't allow it.

Locking them away for life because of who they are and what they might do, as opposed to what they actually do? That's in contention as to being a good thing or a bad thing.

And so on and so forth.

You're right.  Meredith did fail in her duty as Knight-Commander.  But there potentially are factors that could mitigate or excuse her failure.  For example, if Alrik(?) and his compatriots were actively concealing mages they made tranquil. 

They weren't. You can overhear a Tranquil Mage telling her former lover that she "belongs to Ser Alrik now" and "only he can command her".

  Unauthorized tranquilizations are just that, unauthorized.  The thing is, it's not certain Meredith knew or condoned any such thing, if and when they even took place. 

As the Tranquil were able to go to the Gallows courtyard -- which means they would've had to go through other areas to get there -- and some would overhear what they say, I find it hard to believe she didn't know.

Like I said, very difficult circumstances.  On the one hand the Templar Order had become involved, to a large extent unwillingly, in secular political matters they never should have been involved in.  On the other hand, the Order still had its own imperatives and integrity to preserve.  You could fault Meredith for falling off the deep end, and you'd not be wrong, but the truth is she was walking one hell of a tight rope from day one.

She should never have been on that rope. Elthina or Justinia V should've rescinded the order and told the Templars to step out of the political spectrum. Or alternatively, Meredith should've done it herself.

It's not like she was forced to remain there.

Or Threnhold was a greedy warlord who one day went too far.  It's kinda one of those "depends on who you ask" things.

Not so. Kirkwall was suffering from oppressive taxes that caused Perrin Threnhold to use the Chains of Kirkwall to garner more funds. There's no indication that the taxes were created by Threnhold himself. The way the text is worded, it makes it sound as if all of Kirkwall was suffering and these taxes had happened in the past -- not unusual, given its violent history.

I mean, Perrin Threnhold is a tyrant or a good ruler depending on who you ask sure, but the nature of the taxes? That's not something you really hear as being related to him being one or the other. Simply that they existed.

The thing of it is Meredith and the Templars always had fairly prominent support, it was only when Meredith refused to relinquish her power following the qunari attack that that support started to splinter and fray.

Cullen will state prior to Act 3 -- in the previous Acts, I mean -- that the Templars do not have much support in Kirkwall these days. Additionally, you can find a missive from him regarding the Mage Underground where he says the populus are actively helping the Mages remain free, thereby weakening the Templars' support.

Meredith's dictatorship only cemented those convictions in the populus.

You're right, it's very much a whole person standard that needs to be in place.  What I was getting at was rather that a person having a traumatic history with mages, or even being broadly hostile to mages in general shouldn't by itself disqualify that person form serving as a warden or custodian for mages.

She shouldn't have been the first person picked for the job, Knight-Captain or no. Nor should she have remained in that position for so long. That much is certainly undeniable.

Sure, she shouldn't have been banned from attaining the position either, but you don't hand an open spot that centers around authority over Templars -- who have authority over Mages by "divine right" -- to the person who's the most biased and psychologically damaged.

Personally, I'd institute psychological exams on both parties in the Circles, so as to avoid further cases like Quentin/Tarohne and Meredith/Alrik/Karras.

I'd also change just how the Templars seek recruits. Fanatical zealots are not the best choice.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 12:07 .

[Baronesa]

The solution is not so simple...

Creating a new secular order of Templars (Eliminate the addiction to Lyrium as well, that is cruel beyond measure... the chantry are inhuman monsters) AND Mages working together, not one above the other but as equals seems a more sensible idea, and severe all ties to the chantry and any other religious institution...

Or in the long run, just burn all the chantry down. If not for the new Divine and Leliana, this would be my first option... but the open mind displayed by the new Divine gives me hope that you can at least try to REASON with the chantry, this time.

Modifié par Baronesa, 03 août 2012 - 11:55 .

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Apparently, mages are not the only one who can get possessed to become abomination

Yes and no. Whilst non-mages can be possessed by Demons, they do not become Abominations. The term "Abomination" refers specifically to any Mage that is possessed by a denizen of the Fade, as they then have access to the Mage's powers.

David Gaider wrote...

Regular people can be possessed by demons, and are still dangerous, but they are not abominations. Abominations have access to a mage's full power -- even a weak mage turned into an abomination is dangerous -- while a possessed human (or possessed anything) is only as dangerous as the demon that did the possessing.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes and no. Whilst non-mages can be possessed by Demons, they do not become Abominations. The term "Abomination" refers specifically to any Mage that is possessed by a denizen of the Fade, as they then have access to the Mage's powers.

It's a shame that most abominations have seemed to be weaker than demons, then.

[Xilizhra]

I suspect relatively few abominations have full access to the powers of the mage they possess; generally, the process of possession seems to do too much damage. There are times when it seems otherwise, but those seem to be rather rare and possibly dependent on the mage being willing; even Uldred didn't seem to be any more powerful than the pride demon inhabiting him.

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Yes and no. Whilst non-mages can be possessed by Demons, they do not become Abominations. The term "Abomination" refers specifically to any Mage that is possessed by a denizen of the Fade, as they then have access to the Mage's powers.

Okay...but still Wilmord become abomination

What Tarohne trying to do is to put demons into Templars silently, as a surprise attack in which she failed interrupted by Hawke.

When you meet Cullen, Wilmord just changed into abomination saying "wahahahahaha!!! you hit me no more". Wilmord is no mage and have no relation to the Fade. Still he's dangerous as abomination, and also there are a lot of abominations and demons coming out after that. Cullen is shocked and don't believe it is possible.

Wilmod was possessed but not an abomination, you'll notice he becomes a Shade when he transforms not the typical abomination (though he summons those somehow).

[DPSSOC]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes and no. Whilst non-mages can be possessed by Demons, they do not become Abominations. The term "Abomination" refers specifically to any Mage that is possessed by a denizen of the Fade, as they then have access to the Mage's powers.

It's a shame that most abominations have seemed to be weaker than demons, then.

It's also a shame that despite having full access to a mage's power they don't really use much magic.

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Okay...but still Wilmord become abomination

No, he became possessed. He didn't become an Abomination. An Abomination is a possessed Mage.

What Tarohne trying to do is to put demons into Templars silently, as a surprise attack in which she failed interrupted by Hawke.

When you meet Cullen, Wilmord just changed into abomination saying "wahahahahaha!!! you hit me no more". Wilmord is no mage and have no relation to the Fade. Still he's dangerous as abomination, and also there are a lot of abominations and demons coming out after that. Cullen is shocked and don't believe it is possible.

I know. I've played DAII.

And all people in Thedas have a connection to the Fade. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Mages, non-Mages, Kossith, and even Darkspawn (to an extent). Dwarves don't dream in the sense of Fade dreaming, but they still dream and they do have a connection to the Fade.

All that said, only Mages retain their consciousness when in the Fade.

Whether Wilmod is as dangerous as an Abomination is something I'm not going to get into -- though I'm inclined to say "No he isn't", simply because he's not a possessed Mage. He's more dangerous then the average bear Thedosian citizen, but less dangerous then an Abomination.

And on a related note: damned if I know why the hell Abominations start rising up out of the ground, or how "Wilmod" was able to command them. That still makes me question what the hell was going on at Bioware and in-game, even when I ignore how badly Abominations and Demons fight.

Wulfram wrote...

It's a shame that most abominations have seemed to be weaker than demons, then.

Frankly, I don't even find Demons to be a threat in the games because they just seem so badly... made to be enemies. Abominations certainly come off as poorly designed in terms of combat though, so I agree.

I posted my ideas for how Abominations should fight going forward on page 1 -- and that's just as a starting step.

Xilizhra wrote....

I suspect relatively few abominations have full access to the powers of the mage they possess; generally, the process of possession seems to do too much damage. There are times when it seems otherwise, but those seem to be rather rare and possibly dependent on the mage being willing; even Uldred didn't seem to be any more powerful than the pride demon inhabiting him.

That stems more from Bioware just sucking at designing decent enemy encounters then anything else, really.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 01:11 .

[Dave of Canada]

Baronesa wrote...



Creating a new secular order of Templars (Eliminate the addiction to Lyrium as well, that is cruel beyond measure... the chantry are inhuman monsters)

How is empowering Templar with anti-magic capabilities cruel beyond measure?

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Baronesa wrote...



Creating a new secular order of Templars (Eliminate the addiction to Lyrium as well, that is cruel beyond measure... the chantry are inhuman monsters)

How is empowering Templar with anti-magic capabilities cruel beyond measure?

I don't think the lyrium is necessary. Alistair is almost certainly one of the most skilled templars in the game world and he never had any.

[Baronesa]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Creating a new secular order of Templars (Eliminate the addiction to Lyrium as well, that is cruel beyond measure... the chantry are inhuman monsters)

How is empowering Templar with anti-magic capabilities cruel beyond measure?

They are addicted and then when they become older they lost touch with reality... remember the old templar on DA:O

Furthermore, they DO NOT need lyrium to have their powers, remember Alistair was NOT ADDICTED and was a very good Templar... if you pick the specialization as templar you also get all the benefits from the training and don't get the drawback of being addicted.

The lyrium addiction is just a means for the Chantry to control the Templars and have them as lapdogs, unable to leave because then they would have withdrawal sympthoms.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

How is empowering Templar with anti-magic capabilities cruel beyond measure?

Well, getting them addicted to it -- even if it serves a purpose -- is still cruel. But ignoring that, Alistair is a Templar, has never ingested lyrium, never took his vows, and was recruited for his Templar abilities.

Then we've got the Warden who... doesn't ever ingest lyrium to become a Templar. And then there's Hawke, who never ingests lyrium either.

All of this seems to indicate that lyrium is unnecessary to learn the abilities or use them. To amplify them I'd accept. But to learn them? Nah.

And as I said earlier, Templars need to start learning Spirit Warrior talents. That **** makes dealing with Abominations more effective, and doesn't rely on lyrium.

Nizaris1 wrote...

but Tarohne said ..."how they will shock to discover how many abominations in their rank wahahahaha!!!!"

see?

That doesn't change the fact that an Abomination, per the lore and WoG, is defined as being a Mage possessed by a denizen of the Fade.

Also, Tarohne's both bat**** crazy and has a serious case of clown makeup on her face.

Dialogue error or the inane ramblings of an insane clown. It's all the same to me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 01:36 .

[Shadowvalker]

I've always found it a bit off that places such as the circles that are to educate mages never were mentioned with words like:

Schools or/and Universities?

And a second odd thing: Why in the name of the Maker are relatives not to have any contact with their mage children? This smells very much like the german word - arbeitslager.....!

I really liked Thrask statement about the circle - they are a sanctuary!

But all in all I find the templars of Kirkwall to be nothing more bullies on lyrium based power trips. Thrask and Cullen excluded.