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[Dave of Canada]

Dragon Age 2 specialization description:

The strong arm of the Chantry, templars serve as guardians of the Circles of Magi, hunters of apostates and maleficarum, and rarely, as a standing army at the command of the Divine. Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells. Though the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, those with the right connections can acquire enough to emulate the abilities of these vigilant warriors.

So it either changed from DA:O or Alistair was wrong. (must be the lyrium in the water)

+ Not seeing Hawke take lyrium doesn't really mean much, considering he/she can gain Reaver without Dragon blood and such. Mostly just game mechanics, perhaps you can imagine they dealt with it off-screen.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 août 2012 - 01:37 .

[TEWR]

And yet the DAII website says the same thing that Alistair said on how one becomes a Templar -- that it requires discipline and skill only.

It takes incredible focus to wield magic, but even greater will to withstand it. The Templar specialization originated in the Chantry with the establishment of the order, and their mandate remains the restriction and containment of mages. But the abilities Templars command are not divine; they are the product of intense training and rigorous devotions. These are achievable by any warrior, although the discipline required may seem just as much a calling. Templars don’t just endure magic, they deny it, and deny others the use of it. At the height of ability, a Templar simply shrugs off most harmful effects, and can completely suppress a mage’s ability to cast. They are warriors of singular focus, and none can match their dedication or effectiveness at taming those who would abuse the magical energies of the Fade

Hmmm.... I'd say that Bioware doesn't know what the hell they're doing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 01:44 .

[Baronesa]

Alistair specifically tells you how he was spared the fate of being addicted to Lyrium, how do you explain that? Furthermore in the first game he tells you that since he can do the same things, he thinks lyrium is not needed and is just used as a means of control

Modifié par Baronesa, 03 août 2012 - 01:44 .

[TEWR]

Templar abilities in DAO affected non-Mages as well. I routinely used Holy Smite against non-Mages.

It's simply gameplay and not lore.

Although I think Alistair did talk about using his abilities on non-Mages a bit. All I can really remember is that he joked "I'm just a guy in a big, metal suit to them" or something like that.

[TEWR]

It does damage them. I've seen it say as much after I toggled the game to show how much damage I do with every hit, where it did at least 30 points of Spirit Damage to non-Mages in DAO (on Casual, anyway. I was really just playing for the story on my latest run).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 août 2012 - 02:07 .

[TEWR]

I've done it recently on my latest Xanthos Aeducan run. Just the other day I finished up Witch Hunt, and Holy Smite was one of my go-to talents to use at the start of every encounter.

[Zkyire]

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

Meredith served ably and faithfully as Kirkwall's Knight Commander for many years under very difficult circumstances.  The Templar Order's involvement in and oversight of the secular politics of Kirkwall had been an established precedent for some three decades or so by the time of Viscount Dumar's death.  The exact point at which Meredith fell into madness is (deliberately and appropriately) unclear. What is very clear however was "that damn idol" (as Varric might say) was very much a driving force.

There isn't a precedent for the Knight-Commander becoming the de facto Viscount. It also isn't legal for templars to hold political office, based on what the devs said about Bann Alfstanna's brother, Irminric.

Regardless, Meredith never should have been permitted to supervise mages with her history.

Agreed on that point.

Knight-Captains and Knight-Commanders need to understand how dangerous rogue mages are, but still remain detached. If they have a personal vendetta against mages then it will not end well if they're given authority over them.

The Templars need to be given magic education (similar to what the mages are - even though they can't learn the spells) simply so they will understand exactly what the mages are doing, rather than going "Spell I haven't heard of.. must be blood magic! Kill!"

[Dave of Canada]

Holy Smite does damage, just deals more to casters and drains their mana.

[Ausstig]

Baronesa wrote...

"Mages or not like you or me, they have god-like powers and need to be treated accordingly."

Let's change the word mages there for something else, shall we? as a simple thought exercise. Let's go with... gays, transexuals, blacks, women, muslims, jews. And then the "god-like powers" to a suitable distinction... If you can't see the problem of your statement then, I don't think anything else would help
.

Right first sorry about the spelling. 

2. I don't get it? I know blacks and gays, etc. But they can't shot FIRE OUT OF THEIR HANDS. This is where the 'racest/anti-gay paraleism beaks down. Mages have a different skill set from normal people, they are the psykers of the DA universe, should they be treated differently? In a perfect world no, but let me ask you this; Teenagers love doign stupid and occasionaly destructive things and they have mod swings. Now add the power to shot fire out of their hands or cause Earthquakes, think about that "I hat you Mom and Dad!" then boom Earthquacke in the house, would you want to live with that? Or if they did to someone else house. Is it biggioted you say so, I can see sort of where most people are coming from, but the plight of Mages does not move me and frankly after how much they pushed it in Assunder I want to kill them, they annoy me, should they see there famlies yes, if the famliy wants to come sure, like a bording school and then pick a few of the best and send them to Chantries around Theads, to heal the sick or go off to the Gray Wardens to kill  what ever is this weeks threat to the world.

Any I just wanted to say that the disconect between Game and Lore detracted from the story they are trying, I think, to tell. MAybe if Aboinations were all orange named and had stats like a High Dragon we the plays may get a better view of them, though Maker knows that is not the only Lore/Game disconnect in DA such as the Templar drug thing.    

On that point shouldn't people on here be FOR that? 
I mean Templars leaving the Chantry is what caused the war, though I assume the mages (or Elements of) would have left any way as radicals were pushing for it, so shouldn't Chantry control be a good thing?  

[Xilizhra]

2. I don't get it? I know blacks and gays, etc. But they can't shot FIRE OUT OF THEIR HANDS. This is where the 'racest/anti-gay paraleism beaks down. Mages have a different skill set from normal people, they are the psykers of the DA universe, should they be treated differently? In a perfect world no, but let me ask you this; Teenagers love doign stupid and occasionaly destructive things and they have mod swings. Now add the power to shot fire out of their hands or cause Earthquakes, think about that "I hat you Mom and Dad!" then boom Earthquacke in the house, would you want to live with that? Or if they did to someone else house. Is it biggioted you say so, I can see sort of where most people are coming from, but the plight of Mages does not move me and frankly after how much they pushed it in Assunder I want to kill them, they annoy me, should they see there famlies yes, if the famliy wants to come sure, like a bording school and then pick a few of the best and send them to Chantries around Theads, to heal the sick or go off to the Gray Wardens to kill what ever is this weeks threat to the world.

None of this has anything to do with a magophobic religious order performing the imprisonment. Your dichotomy is wholly false.

On that point shouldn't people on here be FOR that?

No.

I mean Templars leaving the Chantry is what caused the war, though I assume the mages (or Elements of) would have left any way as radicals were pushing for it, so shouldn't Chantry control be a good thing?

The templars are the worst element of the Chantry who left when the Chantry wasn't bad enough for them. If they were secular to begin with, it may never have been a problem.

[Baronesa]

Ausstig wrote...
I mean Templars leaving the Chantry is what caused the war, though I assume the mages (or Elements of) would have left any way as radicals were pushing for it, so shouldn't Chantry control be a good thing?  

Actually... the seekers leaving the chantry caused te war, and then again not all seekers and not all templars either

[Applepie_Svk]

Reason why I always hated Anders...

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The precedent of the templars overstepping their bounds by meddling in political affairs?

That's the one.  Like it or love it, that's the situation on the ground people in Kirkwall had to deal with.

Which Meredith took one step further by preventing the elections of a new Viscount, acting as the de facto Viscount, placing her templars in the Viscount's Keep, having a death squad murder civilians, and trying to usurp control of the City Guard. The fact that the templars have meddled in the political affairs of Kirkwall for years is another problem I see with the organization.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Furthermore, it isn't laudable for Meredith to use the Qunari siege to seize power. The City Guard are the ones who restore order while Meredith's death squad was killing people.

Once again, you are quite correct, but seem to be missing the point.  It is laudable for  Meredith to use the Templar Order to repel the qunari and restore order in Kirkwall.  It was in Meredith's failure to take the next step (any next step) and reestablish a secular/civil government that the problem occurred.

You seem to be missing the fact that Meredith didn't restore order but took power, and the Qunari can leave of their own volition as a result of Hawke defeating the Arishok in a duel or handing over Isabela. I refuse to conflate Meredith's power grab with restoring order.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith's personal history puts mages in danger, as the actual scenario demonstrated.

Meredith's (lyrium-idol driven) insanity was what put mages in danger. 

I'm fairly certain templars like Kerras and Alrik - who are noted to be high-ranking templars and Meredith's "cronies" - are examples of how Meredith's position is putting mages in danger, particularly when the templars she advances seem to be morally bankrupt. Not to mention her willingness to kill mages simply to instill fear in other Circle mages, and her leadership decisions that caused Karl to urge Anders to come to Kirkwall in the first place. There's also the case of Cullen, who is prompted to Knight-Captain, and thinks mages can't be treated like people and views them as weapons.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
None of this has anything to do with a magophobic religious order performing the imprisonment. Your dichotomy is wholly false.

Don't try to change the issue. The portion Ausstig quoted had nothing to do with the nature of the chantry itself, only that of mages and how discrimination against them compares to real life discrimination based on sexuality or race.

And he's right, it's a fact mages have abilities that others don't. Fearing homossexuals because they can lose control and rape people from their gender is completely nonsense.
Fearing mages because they have a natural advantage over you, magic is hard to control and are much more susceptible to demonic possession is completely reasonable and understandable.

[EricHVela]

Do we as players understand how dangerous Qunari are?

One mundane Elf proved how dangerous she was after stealing a Qunari weapon.

Anyone is capable of great destruction.

Can mundanes flatten a city with a mere thought? Mages can't either. It takes deals with demons.

Only mages can become abominations. Not true. Even those training to be Templars can become abominations.

Only mages can easily become abominations. ... but only if they allow it. Qunari have no such limit to their power without the Qun.

Qunari are already equal to abominations in terms of destructive power, and they do not stand alone as most abominations do. If the Qun demands something, nothing will stop the Qunari save near-genocide. If a demon demands something, one must accept, and even then, one good blade will suffice to answer.

Yet, Qunari shackle their own mages. All of them. No questions asked.

That's the kicker right there. A demographic, who are capable of destruction without magic far worse than abominations, is still concerned with abominations over their own, impressive mundane power.

It could give one pause.

(Heh. Rouge.)

[Xilizhra]

And he's right, it's a fact mages have abilities that others don't. Fearing homossexuals because they can lose control and rape people from their gender is completely nonsense.
Fearing mages because they have a natural advantage over you, magic is hard to control and are much more susceptible to demonic possession is completely reasonable and understandable.

Fear is reasonable. Hatred is not. Acting on that hatred is not. Acting on that hatred because you have a religious mandate for it is not. And acting on that fear, as opposed to a rational thought process for determining the best solution for everyone involved, is also not. This is why the Chantry is flawed and the templars are broken.

I wonder how many Darkspawn Emissaries have become abominations?

Demons just don't want to posses darkspawn mages? Demons are only interested in human and Elves only?

The darkspawn taint is foreign to demons and they don't react well to it.

[KAM12780]

Baronesa wrote...

Moving past the rouge/rogue jokes and mentions, since the 2 lovely ladies above did that already...

Personally, I do understand it, and that is why Templars are needed...

What it is not needed is for the templars to run the circle of magi as a prision, they take pleasure in oppressing the mages and THAT oppression builds resentment and that increaes the chances for mages to go rogue

"Mages or not like you or me, they have god-like powers and need to be treated accordingly."

Let's change the word mages there for something else, shall we? as a simple thought exercise. Let's go with... gays, transexuals, blacks, women, muslims, jews. And then the "god-like powers" to a suitable distinction... If you can't see the problem of your statement then, I don't think anything else would help

The fact that mages MAY pose a danger and are different than you is not a reason to treat them as slaves or second class citizens, you are simply sugar coating bigotry by claiming to a higher security and shielding it on the fear of the common man.

None of those are good reasons.

Should there be checks and balances? of course, let the mages self police themselves and have the Templars as a fail safe, but not in the same way as it is happening right now.

Pretty much this!