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[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The darkspawn taint is foreign to demons and they don't react well to it.

What taint blood have anything to do with demonic possession?

The theory for why there is no darkspawn abominations probably came from Avernus' studies/experiments which hint that demon's react negatively to the taint.

[Xilizhra]

Come to think of it, have there ever been any Grey Warden abominations?

I don't think there have been.

Holy ****. If there's a way to use a version of the Joining minus the archdemon blood to create... well, not a true Grey Warden, as they probably wouldn't be able to kill the archdemon without that blood, but a sort of stabilized ghoul... that could be a key to immunizing mages from demonic possession. The big problem with this, of course, is that it has a tendency to be fatal, but still, it may be an interesting step forwards.

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

Come to think of it, have there ever been any Grey Warden abominations?

I don't think there have been.

Holy ****. If there's a way to use a version of the Joining minus the archdemon blood to create... well, not a true Grey Warden, as they probably wouldn't be able to kill the archdemon without that blood, but a sort of stabilized ghoul... that could be a key to immunizing mages from demonic possession. The big problem with this, of course, is that it has a tendency to be fatal, but still, it may be an interesting step forwards.

With that solution the mages might  need frequent treatments of blood magic to keep the taint stabalized. Without blood magic they would probably end up like Tamlen, Hespith or Ruck. 

<Delusional> I think Thedas' best bet on countering abominations is for Orlais, Nevarra, Fereldan, Free Marces, Dalish, Tevinter Imperium and Qunari, is to declare an Exalted March on the Fade. It's the only way.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

Come to think of it, have there ever been any Grey Warden abominations?

I don't think there have been.

Fiona was possessed and became an Abomination.
Then Maric&co killed the demon in the Fade and freed her much like Connor.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Fear is reasonable. Hatred is not. Acting on that hatred is not. Acting on that hatred because you have a religious mandate for it is not. And acting on that fear, as opposed to a rational thought process for determining the best solution for everyone involved, is also not. This is why the Chantry is flawed and the templars are broken.

Fear leads to hatred, it's only natural. And mages will always be feared.
I consider the Circle system under Chantry control the best solution for everyone involved.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 août 2012 - 09:24 .

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Worse for everyone. The Mages, the good Templars that have now dwindled in number amongst fair Kirkwall, and the populus at large who are related to the Mages/friends to the Mages/just want things to go back to normal again.

That's really how deteriorating situations work.  And you'd certainly be right if you said that Meredith herself or the Templar Order in Krikwall as a whole, had a fairly large hand in that deterioration.   I just think that it's important to remember that it's unreasonable, not to mention inaccurate, to lay the whole thing at their feet.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, parts of the idea were. A place they could train and hone their abilities and learn how to protect themselves from Demons? That was a benefit, even if its execution left much to be desired. 

My impression was that the original intent of the Templar/Circle system was to treat mages as humanely as possible given the circumstances, while still protecting the general public from dangerous magic.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They weren't. You can overhear a Tranquil Mage telling her former lover that she "belongs to Ser Alrik now" and "only he can command her".


As the Tranquil were able to go to the Gallows courtyard -- which means they would've had to go through other areas to get there -- and some would overhear what they say, I find it hard to believe she didn't know.

I misspoke.  I meant to say that Alrik and his compatriots could easily have been obfuscating the circumstances surrounding the tranquilizations.  In other words, hide the truth, not neccesarily the actual tranquil mages themselves.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She should never have been on that rope. Elthina or Justinia V should've rescinded the order and told the Templars to step out of the political spectrum. Or alternatively, Meredith should've done it herself.

It's not like she was forced to remain there.

I think that falls under the category of "easier said than done."  Much as the Grey Warden hierarchy when Amaranthine became a Grey Warden territory , I'm sure there were very powerful people in the Chantry who looked at the Templar Order's increasing role in the secular politics of Kirkwall with nothing but approval.

It's easy for us to say that someone, anyone in charge should have put a stop to things before they went as far as they did.  But the truth is, like old saying goes, when you're riding a tiger it's most often a case of hold on or get eaten.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cullen will state prior to Act 3 -- in the previous Acts, I mean -- that the Templars do not have much support in Kirkwall these days. Additionally, you can find a missive from him regarding the Mage Underground where he says the populus are actively helping the Mages remain free, thereby weakening the Templars' support.

Meredith's dictatorship only cemented those convictions in the populus.

You're right of course.  By fairly prominent support I really should clarify that I meant that in the sense that the Templar Order and its supporters have enough pull to be considered a major faction in Kirkwall politics.

Modifié par General User, 04 août 2012 - 01:13 .

[Xilizhra]

Fiona was possessed and became an Abomination.
Then Maric&co killed the demon in the Fade and freed her much like Connor.

So was she a willing abomination, or was the possession much more weakly tethered than the norm?

Fear leads to hatred, it's only natural. And mages will always be feared.
I consider the Circle system under Chantry control the best solution for everyone involved.

Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's good. As for the other thing... if the Chantry completely rewrote all of its doctrines, allowed the Circle authorities to possess an equal say, drastically changed their recruiting practices for the templars and stopped the use of lyrium, you could be slightly correct.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's good.

And we don't live in a perfect world.

if the Chantry completely rewrote all of its doctrines,

No need.

allowed the Circle authorities to possess an equal say,

They do already. But it's obvious the templars are not going to obey Enchanters and there are more templars than senior mages thus, templars tend to have more influence.
And yet, there must be more templars than senior mages in order to contain them.

drastically changed their recruiting practices for the templars

No need. The Circles are places meant to contain dangerous people, not daycares.

and stopped the use of lyrium,

Probrably not possible.

[Ausstig]

Baronesa wrote...

Ausstig wrote...
I mean Templars leaving the Chantry is what caused the war, though I assume the mages (or Elements of) would have left any way as radicals were pushing for it, so shouldn't Chantry control be a good thing?  

Actually... the seekers leaving the chantry caused te war, and then again not all seekers and not all templars either

Oh yeah cause Lambert was the High Lord Seeker, I got his role misked up.  

And to Xilizhra you keep going on about how 'evil' Chantry is and how it should be a religoius organization controling the mages. But how many other transnational groups are there in Thedas? I imigaine that the Chantry got the Templars to join was because they were casueing collateral damge and they wanted to limit it or they didn't want a very large and skilled group of Mage hunters out of their control. 

If it is a false choice, then what is the third option?  

[Baronesa]

A third option would be to merge the Mage Collective (Remember the self policing organization?) with a secular wing of Templars. Make them work together, train and grow together, do not isolate them.

The job of those Templars should be to stop abominations and to PROTECT the mages, help them so they do not become abominations, not oppressing them as it happens under the Chantry.

The doctrines of the chantry CREATE the hatred towards mages. Of course, not all the Chantry is the same, The new Divine and Leliana clearly represent the best of it, and they want to improve the situation for mages.

The problem is that people equate a possible danger to an actual danger, and therefore they treat EVERY SINGLE MAGE as a prisoner, as guilty of being an abomination, just because they MAY become one.

The mixing of people that is resentful of mages and religious devotion creates the intolerant and abusive Templars that only make the problem worse.

Moving the Templars out of the Chantry, having an equal standing with the mages as a self policing organization would be far better. No, it would not be easy, but it is a solution that would help both sides, Templars will CARE for their charges, rather than abuse them, and mages will come to befriend and even respect the templars rather than fear them.

Regarding Lyrium, Alistair was not addicted to Lyrium, you can go back and listen to his conversation, Lyrium is said to improve the abilities but it is not necessary for those abilities to work. In fact the same Alistair theorize that the chantry simply use the addiction to lyrium as a means of control over the Templar, which is an inhuman and cruel way, because as we have seen with older Templars, they slowly lose touch with reality.

Modifié par Baronesa, 03 août 2012 - 11:40 .

[Xilizhra]

And we don't live in a perfect world.

Allow me to state just how much I don't give a crap that we don't. Not living in a perfect world is an excuse for nothing whatsoever; if we're not perfect, we must continually strive to be better and better. Simply accepting a system with such grievous imperfections is a horrible insult to our own ability to grow and improve. There are ways to make it better, and they will be found and implemented by whatever means are necessary.

No need.

Rampant magophobia. Worthless. As a matter of fact, if taken literally, the doctrines of the Imperial Chantry are far superior to the Andrastian one; the problem is that the institution itself lies down on the job of helping slaves and the like, although the Andrastian one doesn't do anything to help in Orlais or Antiva either. But in terms of actual doctrine, the Imperial one is better; certainly more practical.

They do already. But it's obvious the templars are not going to obey Enchanters and there are more templars than senior mages thus, templars tend to have more influence.
And yet, there must be more templars than senior mages in order to contain them.

You only need one knight-commander and one First Enchanter for each Circle, and if they have equal sway, it should be balanced.

No need. The Circles are places meant to contain dangerous people, not daycares.

Well, they shouldn't be rape factories either. And thinking of it as "containment" is probably a bad idea; the templars should work together with the mages, not against them. If mages must be confined, then for the system to truly work, it must provide the greatest possible number of mages with the sense that it's for their own greatest good as well. Which it patently does not.

Probrably not possible.

We shall see.

[Shadowvalker]

Termplars! They are like traffic cops creating traffic jams instead of making the traffic run smoothly!

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Allow me to state just how much I don't give a crap that we don't. Not living in a perfect world is an excuse for nothing whatsoever; if we're not perfect, we must continually strive to be better and better. Simply accepting a system with such grievous imperfections is a horrible insult to our own ability to grow and improve. There are ways to make it better, and they will be found and implemented by whatever means are necessary.

Unless you can change the very nature of humans and remove traits like fear, hatred, greed, resentment, selfishness...
Well, I wish you good luck with that.

Rampant magophobia. Worthless. As a matter of fact, if taken literally, the doctrines of the Imperial Chantry are far superior to the Andrastian one; the problem is that the institution itself lies down on the job of helping slaves and the like, although the Andrastian one doesn't do anything to help in Orlais or Antiva either. But in terms of actual doctrine, the Imperial one is better; certainly more practical.

The Imperial Chantry is nothing but a justification to keep the Magisters in positions of power. It's worthless and vile and I wish the Qunari good luck on their war.

The actual Chantry has incredibly reduced slavery, magical abuse and created more moral populations. It has had a benevolent effect on Thedas.
Regarding their doctrine, what they teach is, quite simply, that magic must not rule over man which is a very reasonable stance. The real magophobia derivates from the fact mages are dangerous. It's not zealotry on the part of the population, it's simply common sense.
Magophobia is not going anywhere.

You only need one knight-commander and one First Enchanter for each Circle, and if they have equal sway, it should be balanced.

Theoretically, they are both equal within the Circle but the Knight-Commander must have an army of templars capable of overpowering the mages in the tower if need be in order for the system to work. Otherwise, he will be reduced to asking them nicely to behave.
Couple this with the understanding there are far more battle capable templars in the world than mages and the opinions of the masses and it's obvious why the Knight Commanders ends up wielding more politicar power.

Well, they shouldn't be rape factories either. And thinking of it as "containment" is probably a bad idea; the templars should work together with the mages, not against them. If mages must be confined, then for the system to truly work, it must provide the greatest possible number of mages with the sense that it's for their own greatest good as well. Which it patently does not.

Rape is not a common occurrence in the Circle. We have only encoutered two templars that did this and they were posted in the worst Circle.
Mages and templars working together is a worthy ideal but the mages must still be confined. Both the Chantry and the Templars attempt to make them understand they do what they must for the greater good of all, mages included. Even Anders admits this.
But, of course, no one likes having their freedoms reduced and resentment is, ultimately, inevitable.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 août 2012 - 12:34 .

[Xilizhra]

Unless you can change the very nature of humans and remove traits like fear, hatred, greed, resentment, selfishness...
Well, I wish you good luck with that.

The Circle doesn't accommodate for any of it adequately.

The Imperial Chantry is nothing but a justification to keep the Magisters in positions of power. It's worthless and vile and I wish the Qunari good luck on their war.

I agree with it in that magic should be used for the service of the greater good, and that mind control is the problematic form of magic. Its words are good, the political institution is on the ineffectual side. But to be honest, I like organized religion more when it's ineffectual than when it's crushingly dominant. In any case, the qunari are worse than the Imperium.

Regarding their doctrine, what they teach is, quite simply, that magic must not rule over man which is a very reasonable stance. The real magophobia derivates from the fact mages are dangerous. It's not zealotry on the part of the population, it's simply common sense.
Magophobia is not going anywhere.

Then it must be combated and its effects loosed by those who are more enlightened. And I seriously doubt all of your conclusions follow, but there's no proof either way.

Theoretically, they are both equal within the Circle but the Knight-Commander must have an army of templars capable of overpowering the mages in the tower if need be in order for the system to work. Otherwise, he will be reduced to asking them nicely to behave.
Couple this with the understanding there are far more battle capable templars in the world than mages and the opinions of the masses and it's obvious why the Knight Commanders ends up wielding more politicar power.

Checks and balances to prevent tyranny of the majority. They're valuable and exist for a reason. They should be used.

Rape is not a common occurrence in the Circle. We have only encoutered two templars that did this and they were posted in the worst Circle.

Consider Alain's line "The templars... ask things of us." He says this in Act 3, even if you killed Kerras before he ever had power over Alain. And since Alrik had died three years prior while Alain is speaking in the present tense, the logical conclusion is that it's a systematic problem. Anders also mentions that it was known to have happened in Ferelden. In Kirkwall, it was common enough to be systemic from what we can tell; in Ferelden, probably rare enough that popular captives were safe.

Mages and templars working together is a worthy ideal but the mages must still be confined. Both the Chantry and the Templars attempt to make them understand they do what they must for the greater good of all, mages included. Even Anders admits this.

The Chantry lies. What it does, even if well-intentioned, falls very flat at attempting to be the greatest good for all. There are better systems out there, and they will be found.

And I look forward greatly to seeing my hypothesis of the templars as the canonical villains of DA3 coming true, if it does in fact come true. Which, given that Lambert is clearly evil and all of the knight-commanders are on his side... it seems fairly likely. Hopefully DA3 can give us a clearer picture on what the mages may be as free, and what they may become, away from the Chantry's fearmongering.

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...

No need.

Rampant magophobia. Worthless. As a matter of fact, if taken literally, the doctrines of the Imperial Chantry are far superior to the Andrastian one; the problem is that the institution itself lies down on the job of helping slaves and the like, although the Andrastian one doesn't do anything to help in Orlais or Antiva either. But in terms of actual doctrine, the Imperial one is better; certainly more practical.

They do already. But it's obvious the templars are not going to obey Enchanters and there are more templars than senior mages thus, templars tend to have more influence.
And yet, there must be more templars than senior mages in order to contain them.

You only need one knight-commander and one First Enchanter for each Circle, and if they have equal sway, it should be balanced.

No need. The Circles are places meant to contain dangerous people, not daycares.

Well, they shouldn't be rape factories either. And thinking of it as "containment" is probably a bad idea; the templars should work together with the mages, not against them. If mages must be confined, then for the system to truly work, it must provide the greatest possible number of mages with the sense that it's for their own greatest good as well. Which it patently does not.

"Rape Factories" really <_<, where did you come up with that? Hmm, one templar is half implied to rape one mage and you jump to this conclusion. 

I think some people try to prove that is for the Mages own good, Erving for example, but some mages like Anders will never accept that ever. It is human nature to want what is denied to you, to psh the limits to see where things go. For much of our history it has been our greatest assest, but for mages it will be a curse. What Mages need is something to cut them off from the deaomns, sort of like the Harrowing but less dependent upon the mages will. 

[Lamepro]

.In one of the playthroughs I did he was willing to pay for his crime by letting me kill him for what he done It wasn't Justice that made Anders do this it was himself who made choice.

[Xilizhra]

Hmm, one templar is half implied to rape one mage and you jump to this conclusion.

See above. There's far more evidence.

I think some people try to prove that is for the Mages own good, Erving for example, but some mages like Anders will never accept that ever. It is human nature to want what is denied to you, to psh the limits to see where things go. For much of our history it has been our greatest assest, but for mages it will be a curse. What Mages need is something to cut them off from the deaomns, sort of like the Harrowing but less dependent upon the mages will.

Mages can use it as an asset too if the system is willing to work with them rather than oppress them.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Circle doesn't accommodate for any of it adequately.

The Circle does it purpose well enough.

I agree with it in that magic should be used for the service of the greater good, and that mind control is the problematic form of magic. Its words are good, the political institution is on the ineffectual side. But to be honest, I like organized religion more when it's ineffectual than when it's crushingly dominant. In any case, the qunari are worse than the Imperium.

The Chantry uses magic for the greater good and they do it without allowing slavery, magical abuse and all the other delightful hobbies of the Magisters. The Chantry is a benevolent organization, far better than I expected it to be.
And there is nothing worse than the Imperium. Some of the Qunari's ideas are actually quite compelling.

Then it must be combated and its effects loosed by those who are more enlightened. And I seriously doubt all of your conclusions follow, but there's no proof either way.

The proof lies wit the mages we have seen abuse their power or simply kill people because they couldn't control it.

Checks and balances to prevent tyranny of the majority. They're valuable and exist for a reason. They should be used.

Also, innefective. Sad but true.

Consider Alain's line "The templars... ask things of us." He says this in Act 3, even if you killed Kerras before he ever had power over Alain. And since Alrik had died three years prior while Alain is speaking in the present tense, the logical conclusion is that it's a systematic problem. Anders also mentions that it was known to have happened in Ferelden. In Kirkwall, it was common enough to be systemic from what we can tell; in Ferelden, probably rare enough that popular captives were safe.

Hardly. One boy and some Tranquils does not make it a systematic problem. Bethany, who is an incredibly cute girl, only had problems with Alrik and he never actually touched her. In Ferelden, there was a single mention by one mage who is prone to seeking the worst in templars so, it should be extremely rare there.
There shouldn't be a single case of course but a few rare rapist templars does not ivallidate the Order or the System anymore than rape in our prison does.

The Chantry lies. What it does, even if well-intentioned, falls very flat at attempting to be the greatest good for all. There are better systems out there, and they will be found.

Everyone lies.
A thousand years and counting. No better system found yet.

Lambert is clearly evil

No. Lambert is a templar who spent years exposed to the worst mages the world has to offer, the Magisters and the Black Divine, and was betrayed by one, a close friend.
You could consider him an extremist but compared to someone like Meredith who kills mages to make examples, Lamberts is quite reasonable.
Evil can only be applied to people like Elrik.

and all of the knight-commanders are on his side

Source?

Hopefully DA3 can give us a clearer picture on what the mages may be as free, and what they may become, away from the Chantry's fearmongering.

It's called Tevinter.

And really, do you honestly believe that people need the Chantry to realize that, hey, those people who shoot fireballs out of their fingertips and are susceptible to demonic possession just might be dangerous.

[Xilizhra]

There shouldn't be a single case of course but a few rare rapist templars does not ivallidate the Order or the System anymore than rape in our prison does.

Are you kidding? At least in America, the prison system is utterly putrid and huge amounts of rape along with the fact that no one cares to stop it is a major reason.

Source?

In Asunder, I believe all fifteen knight-commanders sign off on Lambert's decision to defect from the Chantry. Including, in all likelihood, Greagoir.

The rest is just opinion I've heard already, which wouldn't stop me normally, but I'd rather do other things than return to it.

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

This is a proof contradiction on Templar abilities, it is supposed to effect mages only and it is MAGIC spell

Solona : So the Templars using magic themselves?

It's not a contradiction. It's ignoring the facts of the situation on the Chantry's part, but that's not a contradiction. David Gaider himself said in an interview that Templar abilities are in fact magic, despite the Chantry not considering them such.

Again, it's just gameplay. Gameplay does not automatically equal lore. Just because the Templar abilities still damage non-mages in-game doesn't mean it's a contradiction. And if Templar abilities do in fact work on non-mages -- not as a gameplay thing, but as an ackowledged lore aspect -- then that could be explained by the Chantry having told the Templars that their abilities only work on Mages, despite it not being so.

The only time I'd consider gameplay to be lore is if it's acknowledged at some point by dialogue in-game or if it's a reflection of the lore.

General User wrote...

I just think that it's important to remember that it's unreasonable, not to mention inaccurate, to lay the whole thing at their feet.

I suppose this all depends on when you look at the situation. Certainly, Meredith's not the sole cause of the problems in Kirkwall -- the Resolutionists who sought the abolition of the Circle and destruction of the Chantry weren't helping matters -- but she is the primary cause of it. The first cause of the problems actually, if we look at it from when Hawke entered the city-state as opposed to the history itself. And even if we look at history itself, we can say she may have been the first cause of it as well.

Which I've never claimed she's the sole cause. She's not the sole cause, but much of Kirkwall's problems do stem from her, compounded by the majority of the Templars in Kirkwall and the ineffective oversight of the Chantry.

And sometimes a nonsensical plot.

General User wrote....

My impression was that the origianl intent of the Templar/Circle system was to treat mages as humanely as possible given while still protecting the general public form dangerous magic.

Well, there's that too. But remember that the Mages of the time were restricted to using their magic for menial tasks, and when they formed a peaceful protest the Divine of that era was ready to destroy the Grand Cathedral. It was only at the Templars' urging that she relented, though what the Templars were protecting is unknown. They might've cared more for the building -- as it was symbolically important to the Chantry's history -- then they did for the Mages.

When the Mages went into the Circle Towers, they did so under the premise that they could train their abilities. Over the years, it seems that they've gradually lost much of their rights simply for being Mages and by being watched by fanatical zealots.

General User wrote...

I misspoke.  I meant to say that Alrik and his compatriots could easily have been obfuscating the circumstances surrounding the tranquilizations, not the actual tranquil mages themselves

Maybe, but this still doesn't excuse the lack of an inquiry or reprimanding, as it takes the approval of both the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter to authorize it. Obfuscating the circumstances only works for so long.

So again, Meredith either tacitly allowed it, blatantly allowed it, or was incredibly incompetent at her job. Though considering much of Kirkwall's Templars are of the same immoral mindset as Karras, Alrik, and Meredith then it's not surprising that these atrocities continued for as long as they did.

What is certainly surprising is that the Chantry never bothered to investigate.

General User wrote...

I think that falls under the category of "easier said than done."  Much as the Grey Warden hierarchy when Amaranthine became a Grey Warden territory , I'm sure there were very powerful people in the Chantry who looked at the Templar Order's increasing role in the secular politics of Kirkwall with nothing but approval.

It's easy for us to say that someone, anyone in charge should have put a stop to things before they went as far as they did.  But the truth is, like old saying goes, when you're riding a tiger it's most often a case of hold on or get eaten.

The difference here is that the Grey Wardens were given a fresh start in 9:30 Dragon and were taking over from a thoroughly and undisputedly corrupt bastard. Kirkwall was placed under Templar authority because Divine Beatrix III was a friend of the Emperor's, thereby abusing her power. And this happened well before the Grey Wardens took Amaranthine.

And it was only done so because they didn't like what Viscount Threnhold was doing, though opinions differed on whether he was a tyrant or simply a good man with determination and a goal. Over the years, they made it a point to bring Kirkwall down further and further, showcasing that they aren't a good thing.

The Grey Wardens have a much larger goal. As an independent organization, their goal is to serve the best interests of themselves and the community by defending them against the Darkspawn. The Templars aren't an independent organization, and are biased in just how they'll do something and just what they'll do because they're the militant arm of the Chantry -- who serve the best interests of Orlais and vice-versa.

So while some of the more corrupt Chantry officials may have seen it as a good idea, I can't really see why it wasn't rescinded. All it would've taken was for the Grand Cleric to grow a spine and tell Meredith to step down. And if that failed -- like it did -- she could've and should've given permission to Cullen to remove Meredith from her authority.

It really is easy to do. It's not an "easier said then done" scenario. It's what helps the populus of Kirkwall best and it's not hard for the average Kirkwall citizen to see that. The only reason it doesn't happen is because Elthina is really a twit, thinking that she can't support the Mages because if she did she's automatically supporting Mage freedom.

Which is a fallacy, because the majority of the Mages in the Gallows simply wanted Meredith and her like-minded cronies removed from the Order -- something a fair deal of Templars wanted as well.

Barely any Circle Mages -- if there were any at all -- were calling for the Gallows to be torn down, the Templars and Chantry ousted from Kirkwall, and Mages being allowed to be their own watchers.

Removing Meredith and her cronies from the Order simply points to Elthina doing her job, supporting the Circles to be run as they should be. But because she didn't do this for reasons that are idiotic at best and oppressive at worst, she's a twit.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
In Asunder, I believe all fifteen knight-commanders sign off on Lambert's decision to defect from the Chantry. Including, in all likelihood, Greagoir.

They didn't speak against it which is not the same supporting it. Some probrably held private reservations but didn't have the courage to speak up.
If Cole murdered Lambert, those who did support his plan might preserve it and leave the Chantry while others might not.

And let us not forget the mages forced this situation. Not the separation of the Order and the Chantry but rather the war that follows.

[Dave of Canada]

Unrelated but personally, I'd love to imagine Lambert as having survived Cole's attack but he's pretty much in a vegetative state and they're keeping him alive because magic could ironically heal his injuries.

[Ausstig]

So a couple of questions

1. IS Lambert dead? It looked like he might have died at the end of Asunder, but as Andy Chambers said, regarding an ambiguous character 'death' in his own book, "If you haven't seen a body they're halfway to Acapulco by now."

2. How powerful are mages, are there different levels like Warhammer 40,000 psykers or are they like normal people, as in all over the shop?

3. How did mages come to control Tivinter, I know that the Magisters came from the circles but how did they get political power? did they found the nation or take it by force?

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Unrelated but personally, I'd love to imagine Lambert as having survived Cole's attack but he's pretty much in a vegetative state and they're keeping him alive because magic could ironically heal his injuries.

That'd be hilarious.