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[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

"Everyday, new Mages are born in Thedas. Everyday, those who born dozen years ago comes into their power" - Cullen

Cullen did tell my apostate Hawke that mages aren't like Hawke and Cullen, they can't be treated as people and are weapons. There are also the Andrastians who murder mages because they blame them for things that go bad, because that's the environment the anti-mage rhetoric of the Andrastian Chantry has created. Not to mention how Keili and Bethany feel for being "cursed" by the Maker; contrast their depression with Merrill embracing magic, and not raised among people who didn't vilify magic.

It's interesting how her clan vilifies blood magic without them being influenced by the Chantry.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 août 2012 - 09:55 .

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...

1. Andraste cast down Tevinter Imperium ruled by Mages who brought the world into ruin

2. There is demon in the Fade, apprentice must kill the demon in the Fade or be killed by Templar

What is the relation? No relation at all.

Can't you guys see that it is a very carefully construct propaganda to justifying the act?

Killing demon in the Fade is out of question, any trained and skilled mage can kill demon in the Fade.

What you don't seem to understand is that mages are dangerous for more reasons than one.
That fact that a mage's susceptbility to demonic possession is not related to the actions of the Tevinter Imperium doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. Mages are susceptible to demonic possession.
So, the Templars created a trial by fire where mages either prove their strenght or die. It's harsh and crude but it makes sense.

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Sure it does. "Magic exists to serve man," you are going into a place where magic reigns, where strength of will is your greatest weapon. If you cannot master your own will than how can you ever hope to master your magical abilities. You will forever be a slave to your own power because you lack the ability to control it. Like the apprentice in the library who lights himself on fire. The Harrowing pits your will against that of a demon, by passing you demonstrate that you possess the strength of will to not only resist demons but also to master the more advanced magics of the Circle.

The first statement is POLITICAL and RELIGIOUS, about Tevinter Imperium magisters, and Andraste in which the Chantry prophet fought.

The second statement is what all mages risk for, demon attracted to them, have no relation at all with POLITICAL RELIGIOUS statement of the first.

Harrowing is thrown mages into fight the demon UNPREPARED, untrained. Like i said, every skilled mages can kill demon who will become their problem.

Harrowing is not Justified by political religious propaganda.

I thought it was implied by Jowan that apprentices who were deemed ready were allowed to take the Harrowing.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 août 2012 - 09:52 .

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Keeper merethari NEVER being in the Circle, NEVER going through Harrowing, yet she know the danger of the Fade and demons, and she want to save Merill from become a victim.

Dalish clan Keepers are not Andraste worshiper.

Lol...Marethari foolishly allowed herself to be an abomination, so use Zatharian as a better example of Dalish mages.

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Keeper merethari NEVER being in the Circle, NEVER going through Harrowing, yet she know the danger of the Fade and demons, and she want to save Merill from become a victim.

Dalish clan Keepers are not Andraste worshiper.

Dalish Keepers have one Second that they train for decades in order to be prepared to deal with demons and the such. They can dedicate all of their attention and time to this single apprentice in order for him or her to be truly prepared. This would not be feasible if the dalish had a greater population of mages like they exist in human society.

Also, Dalish Clan Keepers should pay more attention to the studies of demons and the Fade written in Andrastian society for they are academic in nature, not religious.

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I thought it was implied by Jowan that apprentices who were deemed ready were allowed to take the Harrowing.

In Mage Origin, there is dialogue path "why they not allow us to prepare for this battle?", mouse answer "they don't want you to prepare because they believe if you can resist unprepared like this you can do it anytime"

Apprentice who going through Harrowing are not prepared, that is why Irving try to explain ti his apprentice about the Fade but Gregoir cut him off.

The apprentice don't know anything about the Fade.

It seems their intentions are for the good of the apprentices, but their methods are too draconian. I wonder if it's possible for the circle to make a test with similiar intentions, but different method of delivering said test?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 août 2012 - 10:14 .

[MisterJB]

That's a most naive attitude that rests in a false assumption. That is, if you are good to people, they will be good to you. It is a nice sentiment but it has been proven wrong time and time again. People side with what is similar.
The similarity might be race or religion or something else entirely but, most of the time, it will take precedence over other considerations. And yes, that includes sympathy.

Even if mages enjoyed freedom and civil rights in Andrastian society, many of them would still side with Tevinter.And diminishing the amount of control we keep the mages within our borders under, merely increases the risk of infiltration from the enemy.
So, not only are we being lenient to people who will never like us or support us, we increase the risk of enemy infiltration who definitely hates us.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 août 2012 - 11:32 .

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

It's interesting how her clan vilifies blood magic without them being influenced by the Chantry.

The clan believes what Marethari tells them, and she poisoned the clan against Merrill because of the Eluvian. It's noted by Merrill that blood magic is old magic.

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I haven't finished Asunder yet, so I suppose we'll see.

You don't avoid spoilers, I take it?

It no longer matters, as I've finished it now.

I suppose Lambert's death seems likely, which is a bit of a shame; the templars need some kind of face. It was, however, not at all shy about showing that the debate between the good guys was the mages vs. the Chantry, and the templars were clearly antagonistic, and mostly villainous, being portrayed as such in both depiction and thought. And Evangeline continued the pattern of "the only good templars are the ones who leave the Order."

Spoilers ahead, if you wish to avoid scroll qucikly

I hated this with every fiber of my being. Lambert had been betrayed by a mage that he trusted, he had lived in the Tevinter Chantry and has seen how mages with out restrictions act. To the me the Divine came off as an fool and a trator to her own people and the Mages are children wanting freedom but not accepting their responsabilty.

I loved when Lambert was fighting the 'heros' cause I hated them. Evangeline or 'new Lily' is stupid and now an aboination, Rhys I hate cause he Wynn's son and I hate her and anything releated to her. And Cole is a deamon and a serial killer. 

I WANT to side with Lambert either to help him or to show him that mages can be trusted, he is not a bad guy he is like Loghain, Adrian is much worse. 

I don't see why Biowear keeps doing things like this, they make a morraly 'gray' faction and make them evil and a bigger threat then the evil faction, some times it can work, DA:O did it well as the Darkspawn where always close and Loghains' villiany was well explained, but Mass Effect 3 did it VERY badly and I fear that DA3 will go them same way, Blood Mages are already an evil group so why not use them? Instead it takes this view that the mages are these poor sheep how need protecting from the evil Templars. 

But Templars are people like you and me, mages are dangerous, it would like allowing a mentally unstable person buy an assult rifle with no limit on the ammo. They are dangerous more so then other people and no amount of racest allagory can prove that wrong, a muslem terrorist is no more dangerous then a catholic one. A mage terrorist is much more dangerous then a normal one. Anders is one man living in the swers and he does more damage than any in Kirkwall save for Meredith, who is the HEAD of the Templars. 

In short a simple mage/abination has as much power as a major political leader. 

[MisterJB]

All mages are dangerous. Magic is hard to control and attracts demons.
The morality of mages is a different issue altogether. When you discover a system that can flawlessly distinguish between the harmless ones and the power hungry, we will be more than happy to imprison only the latter for life.
Meanwhile, the Circle Systems continues saving lives. Visit Tevinter if you don't believe the templars, just be careful you don't end up in chains.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 août 2012 - 12:35 .

[MisterJB]

But having magic helps greatly so, it is no surprise if free mages are prone to having ideas of greatness and lack of consideration for the mundanes, those "ants to be crushed".
The natural advantage they possess makes them far more dangerous than your average street thug. It's understandable mundandes fear living alongside a mage who can burn his district to the ground because he had a bad day.

[MisterJB]

Nobles and kings are only powerful because society perceives them as such. Wealth can be lost, soldiers can be convinced to fight for the other side. The Warden proved this when he defeated Loghain at the Landsmeet.

Mages have a very real power than can't be taken away except through Tranquilty.

[Shadowvalker]

Mages are dangerous so we catch them and gag them in front of their family, friends and neighbors!

Judes are dangerous so we catch them and gag them in front of their family, friends and neighbors!


Germany in the 1930's.... Just saying...

[LobselVith8]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Keeper merethari NEVER being in the Circle, NEVER going through Harrowing, yet she know the danger of the Fade and demons, and she want to save Merill from become a victim.

Dalish clan Keepers are not Andraste worshiper.

The Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Rivani witches and seers, and the Dalish clans are examples where free mages live outside Chantry and templar control.

As for Marethari, why did she assume Audacity would use the Eluvian to escape? Did Audacity tell her? Seems like Marethari was the intended target of Audacity all along.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Keeper merethari NEVER being in the Circle, NEVER going through Harrowing, yet she know the danger of the Fade and demons, and she want to save Merill from become a victim.

Dalish clan Keepers are not Andraste worshiper.

The Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Rivani witches and seers, and the Dalish clans are examples where free mages live outside Chantry and templar control.

As for Marethari, why did she assume Audacity would use the Eluvian to escape? Did Audacity tell her? Seems like Marethari was the intended target of Audacity all along.

What bothers me is that Marethari confronted Audacity alone, telling no one from the clan or Hawke who had proven him/herself against demons.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 05 août 2012 - 01:35 .

[DPSSOC]

Nizaris1 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Sure it does. "Magic exists to serve man," you are going into a place where magic reigns, where strength of will is your greatest weapon. If you cannot master your own will than how can you ever hope to master your magical abilities. You will forever be a slave to your own power because you lack the ability to control it. Like the apprentice in the library who lights himself on fire. The Harrowing pits your will against that of a demon, by passing you demonstrate that you possess the strength of will to not only resist demons but also to master the more advanced magics of the Circle.

The first statement is POLITICAL and RELIGIOUS, about Tevinter Imperium magisters, and Andraste in which the Chantry prophet fought.

The second statement is what all mages risk for, demon attracted to them, have no relation at all with POLITICAL RELIGIOUS statement of the first.

Ok here's what you're not getting about that line.  Tevinter was, and still is, a nation ruled by magic; not mages, magic.  Tevinter has wrapped itself into an endless cycle where the only goal is to achieve greater power, to open doors, to achieve greater power.  "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him." is a credo of the Circle, similar to the lines of the Jedi or Sith Codes.  As for the mention of Tevinter it is not uncommon to reference who said a quote and when, especially when referring to a major historical figure,  "As Winston Churchill said durring the London bombings ..."

Nizaris1 wrote...
Harrowing is thrown mages into fight the demon UNPREPARED, untrained. Like i said, every skilled mages can kill demon who will become their problem.

Uldred couldn't.  Merrill couldn't.  Both powerful and well aware of what they were dealing with and they fell to it.  The Harrowing catches apprentices unprepared because sometimes that's how they find you.  Every dream can be a demon's offer and a mage must be able to resist even when not on guard. 

A friend of mine once challenged me to try and punch him in the nose, assuring me he'd block anything I tried (he'd just started taking Karate or Judo I dunno we were young).  I swung and sure enough he blocked it, and I tried again and again and he blocked it.  I said I was done and the moment he relaxed I decked him.  What we can do when we're prepared is irrelevant to interacting with the real world.

Nizaris1 wrote...
Harrowing is not Justified by political religious propaganda.

It doesn't need to be.

BrotherWarth wrote...
"The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. We must put all of the yellow people in internment camps."
"Muslim extremists attacked the World Trade Center and the United States government on 9/11. Bomb all the Arabs."

Do you see why this logic is dangerous? Though DA2 tries to make it a matter of shades of grey, the Templar/Mage conflict is quite one-sided because the Templars oppress all mages, not just the dangerous ones.

Except that's not the logic at all. The reasoning behind the Circle isn't, "some mages did something bad so lock them up," it's "if a mage does lose control they can do a lot of damage and there's no way for ordinary people to defend themselves."

BrotherWarth wrote...
How is a mage any different than someone born to great wealth and lacking a moral compass? They can hire an army to commit whatever atrocities they see fit.

The latter can't do that by accident?

Modifié par DPSSOC, 05 août 2012 - 01:33 .

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ok here's what you're not getting about that line.  Tevinter was, and still is, a nation ruled by magic; not mages, magic.  Tevinter has wrapped itself into an endless cycle where the only goal is to achieve greater power, to open doors, to achieve greater power.  "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him." is a credo of the Circle, similar to the lines of the Jedi or Sith Codes.  As for the mention of Tevinter it is not uncommon to reference who said a quote and when, especially when referring to a major historical figure,  "As Winston Churchill said durring the London bombings ..."

What we know is that the Andrastian Chantry rule over the mages now, because their religious doctrine dictates they have dominion over mages by "divine right." Their teachings have helped force mages into servitude for nearly a millennia.

DPSSOC wrote...

Uldred couldn't.  Merrill couldn't.  

In "Night Terrors," everyone tries to kill Hawke after a conversation that lasts seconds. It's as asinine as abominations coming out of the ground.