304 réponses à ce sujet

[Ausstig]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Mages are dangerous so we catch them and gag them in front of their family, friends and neighbors!

Judes are dangerous so we catch them and gag them in front of their family, friends and neighbors!


Germany in the 1930's.... Just saying...

three things 

1. You spelt Jews wrong.
2. Mages aren't 'gaged' in front of their family they are just taken from them. Jews were put in getos with their family.
3. Jews can't shoot fire out of their hands, and it wasn't just jews it was also communists and homosexuals who were killed by the Nation Socialists. 

Mages are dangerious, not through any fault of their own. It isn't a choice, like crime, it is in the blood mages have no choice

 

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Uldred couldn't.  Merrill couldn't.  

In "Night Terrors," everyone tries to kill Hawke after a conversation that lasts seconds. It's as asinine as abominations coming out of the ground.

Yet it's still canon.  Don't get me wrong I'm not berating Merrill for it or giving her a hard time but it demonstrates that even people who know what they're doing, who've prepared themselves, can still be overpowered or outwitted.  Uldred knew what he was doing and it back fired, Merrill knew not to trust demons but it still managed to worm it's way into her mind.  We can't be on guard all the time, a test the subject is prepared for is only accurate in failure.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Harrowing is not Justified by political religious propaganda.

It doesn't need to be.

The templars threw Bethany into the Harrowing right away, according to her letter. The mages aren't properly prepared for the Harrowing, as no one knows what to expect (as we see with Jowan). The mage protagonist can refer to it as being "thrown to the wolves."

DPSSOC wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

How is a mage any different than someone born to great wealth and lacking a moral compass? They can hire an army to commit whatever atrocities they see fit.

The latter can't do that by accident?

So oppressing them and dehumanizing them is the answer?

[MisterJB]

They are kept in a luxurious tower where they are safe, warm, clothed, fed and educated. There must be peasants who would sell their entire families to have acess to those living conditions.
Not every Circle is like Kirkwall.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 août 2012 - 02:34 .

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...
Harrowing is not Justified by political religious propaganda.

It doesn't need to be.

The templars threw Bethany into the Harrowing right away, according to her letter. The mages aren't properly prepared for the Harrowing, as no one knows what to expect (as we see with Jowan). The mage protagonist can refer to it as being "thrown to the wolves."

Yes because that's the test they've devised.  They throw you up against a demon when you're not ready because it's a more accurate test of your ability.  If they gave apprentices time to prepare the Harrowing would only be accurate when it resulted in failure.  Just like tests in schools aren't accurate indicators of your knowledge and understanding of the material, just your ability to memorize and recite.

I'm not saying it's the only test, I'm not saying it's the best test, but as a test it does make sense.  If you can resist a demon when you're caught with your pants down odds are good you'll be able to resist them any other time.  If you can't then you would've proven to be too much of a risk to be given access to any kind of real power.

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

How is a mage any different than someone born to great wealth and lacking a moral compass? They can hire an army to commit whatever atrocities they see fit.

The latter can't do that by accident?

So oppressing them and dehumanizing them is the answer?

No, and I'm not saying I agree with everything that goes on in the Circle, but the Circles themselves are necessary.  By isolating the mages you ensure that most, if not all, accidents can be contained, and many more prevented, by making sure there are people around at all times who are capable of dealing with them.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

Yet it's still canon.  Don't get me wrong I'm not berating Merrill for it or giving her a hard time but it demonstrates that even people who know what they're doing, who've prepared themselves, can still be overpowered or outwitted.  Uldred knew what he was doing and it back fired, Merrill knew not to trust demons but it still managed to worm it's way into her mind.  We can't be on guard all the time, a test the subject is prepared for is only accurate in failure.

It's not an example of that. Merrill isn't outwitted, she's railroaded by Plot into trying to kill Hawke in a matter of seconds because of inept writing, just like all the companions, except for Anders. It openly contradicts how demons act, as we see from Origin and Awakening. Demons can't operate that way. It's no different than the lore-breaking scene of abominations rising from the ground. It's an example of terrible writing, nothing more.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 août 2012 - 02:56 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

They are kept in a luxurious tower where they are safe, warm, clothed, fed and educated. There must be peasants who would sell their entire families to have acess to those living conditions.
Not every Circle is like Kirkwall.

The White Spire was rather terrible. A place where they can forget to feed you and then erase all records of you after you die, among other things such as people just vanishing. The costs of a lack of freedom are often hidden from casual view, but no less real. And Asunder is rather explicit about almost the entire Order being greatly morally corrupt; those who wish to actually do good, such as Evangeline, tend to need to leave it.

[MisterJB]

Their freedoms are taken away because they are dangerous, not because they are different.
Yes, it's a prison. But a gilded one. There are innumerable people in our real world who live in far worse conditions than the mages.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Their freedoms are taken away because they are dangerous, not because they are different.
Yes, it's a prison. But a gilded one. There are innumerable people in our real world who live in far worse conditions than the mages.

That's a logical fallacy, but I forget the name of it. But just because some people are worse off doesn't mean that oneself can't be badly off. Bringing up those innumerable people has nothing whatsoever to do with the templar problem. I'd totally be behind them rebelling against whomever is causing their problems as well, and that does happen from time to time.

[MisterJB]

It means that when the game tries to lecture me about the plight of the mages, my most common reaction is to roll my eyes.
"Oh yes, I feel so sorry for the people who don't have to work, are not starving or illiterate."

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Their freedoms are taken away because they are dangerous, not because they are different.

Putting them under Chantry control seems to be what is going on; maybe it's not as altruistic as you think.

MisterJB wrote...

Yes, it's a prison. But a gilded one. There are innumerable people in our real world who live in far worse conditions than the mages.

People are willing to risk their lives to be free from the Chantry controlled Circles. The mages emancipated themselves. Apparently, they chose freedom over a life of servitude. Now, they want to maintain their autonomy, which is why they are going to war with the rebel templars.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

It means that when the game tries to lecture me about the plight of the mages, my most common reaction is to roll my eyes.
"Oh yes, I feel so sorry for the people who don't have to work, are not starving or illiterate."

You can be empathetic for more than one group of people at a time, you know.

In any case, the mages have voted on it being intolerable. Since odds against things being stuffed back into the same status quo bottle or all mages being killed off seem astronomical, the mages will probably win, unless some greater magical event renders the whole conflict moot. But either way, the templars are going to lose, and will likely be DA3's darkspawn. Asunder shows a rather clear pattern...

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

They are kept in a luxurious tower where they are safe, warm, clothed, fed and educated. There must be peasants who would sell their entire families to have acess to those living conditions.
Not every Circle is like Kirkwall.

The White Spire was rather terrible. A place where they can forget to feed you and then erase all records of you after you die, among other things such as people just vanishing. The costs of a lack of freedom are often hidden from casual view, but no less real. And Asunder is rather explicit about almost the entire Order being greatly morally corrupt; those who wish to actually do good, such as Evangeline, tend to need to leave it.

1 guy, count em one. Starved to death and did you think that the reason it was covered up by the guy who forgot was because he would get punished?

People are disapearing because COLE IS MURDERING THEM! When Lambert say that the guy in charge was not doing enough he took over him self. 

Is the order more courpt then the Mage who murdered her friend in cold blood and then becomes a head inchanter? Evangeline left the order and BECAME AN ABINATION! If she wanted to help she should not have helped destory the Templars greatest weapon against deamons and Blood Mages. 

[Xilizhra]

People are disapearing because COLE IS MURDERING THEM! When Lambert say that the guy in charge was not doing enough he took over him self.

Actually, people were vanishing before Cole. And Cole's murders were being covered up from the mages at their own risk, as I recall.

Is the order more courpt then the Mage who murdered her friend in cold blood and then becomes a head inchanter? Evangeline left the order and BECAME AN ABINATION! If she wanted to help she should not have helped destory the Templars greatest weapon against deamons and Blood Mages.

Adrian's crime was killing someone who was begging to die and would be mindraped into oblivion the next morning. I don't consider it so terrible. In any case, it was necessary to bring Wynne into the affair, unless she could be persuaded into it by reason alone; even then, mercy alone would dictate that death. Also, only mages can become abominations; by definition, Evangeline isn't one, and the spirit sharing her body seems fairly harmless in any case. Evangeline's departure is also yet another nail in the templars' moral coffin; expect to see a lot of time spent killing them very soon...

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Putting them under Chantry control seems to be what is going on; maybe it's not as altruistic as you think.

Considering the Chantry hasn't abused its control over magic; there are no secret squads of blood mages who feed on the blood of peasants serving the Divine, for instance; I will raise no objections over it.
The system stems more from fear of the mages than true altruism but that doesn't change the fact living conditions inside most Circles could be infinitelly worse.

People are willing to risk their lives to be free from the Chantry controlled Circles. The mages emancipated themselves. Apparently, they chose freedom over a life of servitude. Now, they want to maintain their autonomy, which is why they are going to war with the rebel templars.

Bah, let them starve for a week and they'll be begging to return to the Circle.

Also, I consider this action of the mages to be completely irresponsible, inconsiderate and selfish. To wish for more rights is understandable and reasonable. But by completely separating themselve from the Chantry they fail to acknowledge why they are feared and take the danger they represent into account and thus, prove they are not worthy of freedom.

[Xilizhra]

Also, I consider this action of the mages to be completely irresponsible, inconsiderate and selfish. To wish for more rights is understandable and reasonable. But by completely separating themselve from the Chantry they fail to acknowledge why they are feared and take the danger they represent into account and thus, prove they are not worthy of freedom.

All they do is prove to the Chantry that it's both failed the mages and failed the common people by virtue of failing the mages. Wholly legitimate, and their freedom will be well-earned. The tree of liberty must be watered by the blood of tyrants.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Adrian's crime was killing someone who was begging to die and would be mindraped into oblivion the next morning. I don't consider it so terrible.

Adrian's crime was to instigate a world war. She is a murderous, selfish warmonger and I hope she gets her commeuppance in DA3, preferably by the hand of the protagonist.
She represents the worst mages can become just like Meredith represented the worst templars could become. She disrupted a peaceful conclave the Chantry had allowed, she made peace impossible. Every village pillage, every woman spoiled, every child murdered, every fallen soldier...it's all on her head.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
All they do is prove to the Chantry that it's both failed the mages and failed the common people by virtue of failing the mages. Wholly legitimate, and their freedom will be well-earned. The tree of liberty must be watered by the blood of tyrants.

It was Andraste who brought down a true tyrany. The mages are fighting for supremacy, not equality. They are the ones who have failed the common people in pursuit of selfish goals rather than make concessions to reach a peaceful solution.

[Melca36]

Pretty naive to assume all mages are feared.

For example....this scene from Kirkwall




If you think everybody is going to side with the templars you are sorely mistaken.

The citizens will be split in half...pro and against

[Xilizhra]

Adrian's crime was to instigate a world war. She is a murderous, selfish warmonger and I hope she gets her commeuppance in DA3, preferably by the hand of the protagonist.
She represents the worst mages can become just like Meredith represented the worst templars could become. She disrupted a peaceful conclave the Chantry had allowed, she made peace impossible. Every village pillage, every woman spoiled, every child murdered, every fallen soldier...it's all on her head.

Hah. Hardly. It was the free choice of the templars to oppress the mages. It was the free choice of the mages to depart. It was the free choice of the templars to also depart and launch their pogrom. Adrian didn't go and control their minds to do all of this; it's the choice of every individual involved. But for her individual action... well, I hope I get a chance to shake her hand. I doubt she'll be a mandatory villain; she's not portrayed as significantly antagonistic (unlike, say, the templars).

It was Andraste who brought down a true tyrany. The mages are fighting for supremacy, not equality. They are the ones who have failed the common people in pursuit of selfish goals rather than make concessions to reach a peaceful solution.

Ah, yes, because the defeat of heinous oppressors is so very selfish. You're a master of blaming the victims, aren't you?

[Melca36]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
All they do is prove to the Chantry that it's both failed the mages and failed the common people by virtue of failing the mages. Wholly legitimate, and their freedom will be well-earned. The tree of liberty must be watered by the blood of tyrants.

It was Andraste who brought down a true tyrany. The mages are fighting for supremacy, not equality. They are the ones who have failed the common people in pursuit of selfish goals rather than make concessions to reach a peaceful solution.

LOL Not all mages are fighting for supremecy and you are naive to assume that. Cant wait for DA:3 to come out and to see the Chantry taken down a few notches.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Putting them under Chantry control seems to be what is going on; maybe it's not as altruistic as you think.

Considering the Chantry hasn't abused its control over magic; there are no secret squads of blood mages who feed on the blood of peasants serving the Divine, for instance; I will raise no objections over it.
The system stems more from fear of the mages than true altruism but that doesn't change the fact living conditions inside most Circles could be infinitelly worse.

The Andrastian Chantry institutes fear of magic and mages with their teachings, in contrast to the mage tolerant societies where mages live alongside non-mages.

[Melca36]

Xilizhra wrote...

Adrian's crime was to instigate a world war. She is a murderous, selfish warmonger and I hope she gets her commeuppance in DA3, preferably by the hand of the protagonist.
She represents the worst mages can become just like Meredith represented the worst templars could become. She disrupted a peaceful conclave the Chantry had allowed, she made peace impossible. Every village pillage, every woman spoiled, every child murdered, every fallen soldier...it's all on her head.

Hah. Hardly. It was the free choice of the templars to oppress the mages. It was the free choice of the mages to depart. It was the free choice of the templars to also depart and launch their pogrom. Adrian didn't go and control their minds to do all of this; it's the choice of every individual involved. But for her individual action... well, I hope I get a chance to shake her hand. I doubt she'll be a mandatory villain; she's not portrayed as significantly antagonistic (unlike, say, the templars).

It was Andraste who brought down a true tyrany. The mages are fighting for supremacy, not equality. They are the ones who have failed the common people in pursuit of selfish goals rather than make concessions to reach a peaceful solution.

Ah, yes, because the defeat of heinous oppressors is so very selfish. You're a master of blaming the victims, aren't you?

I guess for him, its okay for Templars to rape mages and to beat the tranquil. 

[Xilizhra]

I guess for him, its okay for Templars to rape mages and to beat the tranquil.

Never mind beating, creating the Tranquil to begin with.