304 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Hah. Hardly. It was the free choice of the templars to oppress the mages. It was the free choice of the mages to depart. It was the free choice of the templars to also depart and launch their pogrom. Adrian didn't go and control their minds to do all of this; it's the choice of every individual involved. But for her individual action... well, I hope I get a chance to shake her hand. I doubt she'll be a mandatory villain; she's not portrayed as significantly antagonistic.

The alternative for the templars is to let nuclear bombs running around the world. Oh, I'm sure no one will get hurt, what a nice choice they are given.
The instigator of this was Adrian, she purposelly sabotaged a peaceful conclave the Chantry had allowed and then used the actions of the templar to justify her selfish goals. I hope you get to shake her hand but I also hope I get to make her a Tranquil.

Ah, yes, because the defeat of heinous oppressors is so very selfish. You're a master of blaming the victims, aren't you?

The victims are the mundanes who will get caught in the middle of all this. Freedom is a worthy goal but if to achieve it you must cause untold suffering to innocents then yes, you are being selfish.
The chantry was willing to talk, to make concessions. The mages were not, they refuse to acknowledge themselves dangerous. They are selfish.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

It was Andraste who brought down a true tyrany. The mages are fighting for supremacy, not equality. They are the ones who have failed the common people in pursuit of selfish goals rather than make concessions to reach a peaceful solution.

You are forgetting Shartan and his elven legions, who were promised a homeland that the Chantry took away.

Also, mages are fighting for freedom from an oppressive system that is viewed as slavery. And it isn't selfish to fight for equality and freedom.

[Xilizhra]

The alternative for the templars is to let nuclear bombs running around the world. Oh, I'm sure no one will get hurt, what a nice choice they are given.
The instigator of this was Adrian, she purposelly sabotaged a peaceful conclave the Chantry had allowed and then used the actions of the templar to justify her selfish goals. I hope you get to shake her hand but I also hope I get to make her a Tranquil.

I personally have no incentive to hope for your sadism to be fulfilled, regrettably. As for the rest, the templars could have stood down and let the Chantry take over negotiations with the mages on an equal level, instead of a subordinate level. But Lambert's thirst for blood was too strong, as it seems to be for the vast majority of the Order (else Evangeline wouldn't have needed to leave).

The victims are the mundanes who will get caught in the middle of all this. Freedom is a worthy goal but if to achieve it you must cause untold suffering to innocents then yes, you are being selfish.
The chantry was willing to talk, to make concessions. The mages were not, they refuse to acknowledge themselves dangerous. They are selfish.

The Chantry wasn't willing to speak to the Circle as an equal, and as long as the templars were there, would have no incentive to cease its oppression. The mages needed to act; they have done so. The vote is taken. It's the templars' choice to leave the Chantry and prosecute war.

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It means that when the game tries to lecture me about the plight of the mages, my most common reaction is to roll my eyes.
"Oh yes, I feel so sorry for the people who don't have to work, are not starving or illiterate."

You can be empathetic for more than one group of people at a time, you know.

In any case, the mages have voted on it being intolerable. Since odds against things being stuffed back into the same status quo bottle or all mages being killed off seem astronomical, the mages will probably win, unless some greater magical event renders the whole conflict moot. But either way, the templars are going to lose, and will likely be DA3's darkspawn. Asunder shows a rather clear pattern...

You are wrong on all your points. 

1. The mages never voted to leave, they voted to stay and then radicals arranged events so as to start a war. 

2. The Mages have a very good chance to lose because most of the common man fears and hates them, So most of their supplies will be taken by force which will cause resentment and more people to join the templars. 

3. Desperate Mages go to Blood Magic, Dragon Age: Origins and DA2 show a very claer patten, mages who want power go to deamons.

I think BLOOD MAGES will be DA3's Darkspawn.

Xilizhra wrote...

The tree of liberty must be watered by the blood of tyrants.

Says the Man from a nation founded because they did not want to pay taxs to pay off debts of a war that saved them from foreign take over. 

Do not pretend that all mages want liberty SOME DO, but OTHERS WANT TO RULE. IF the Mages carve out a 'nation' then it will not be a stable place because the only thing that unites them is a common enermy. They have no end goal other then a vague Freedom. The Templrs have a goal; Prevent an new Tevinter and put mages back in their box. 

This war will not be short it will not be nice both sides will ravage the land they fight over, it will be like "The Thirty Years War". All because a few Mages wanted to leave their guilded cage.  

[MisterJB]

Melca36 wrote...
I guess for him, its okay for Templars to rape mages and to beat the tranquil. 

Show me where it is written in the Chant of Light that templars must rape mages or beat tranquils.
Oh wait, it's not. It is then clear that templars who commit these crimes are a minuscule minority that can be dealt with without starting a war.

Xilizhra wrote...
Never mind beating, creating the Tranquil to begin with.

The
Rite of Tranquility is an absolute last resort for mages who are
utterly incapable of controlling their powers and are thus a danger or
are of obvious evil nature and are thus a danger.
There is nothing wrong with it when it is applied under that criteria. The fact that one templar and his crookies went against Chantry law itself and turned innocent into Tranquils doesn't invalidate the Rite itself.

[Ausstig]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

It was Andraste who brought down a true tyrany. The mages are fighting for supremacy, not equality. They are the ones who have failed the common people in pursuit of selfish goals rather than make concessions to reach a peaceful solution.

You are forgetting Shartan and his elven legions, who were promised a homeland that the Chantry took away.

The Fall of the Dales is a whole different ketle of fish. Also there is another thread in for dicussing it, check it out some good debates in there. 

[Xilizhra]

1. The mages never voted to leave, they voted to stay and then radicals arranged events so as to start a war.

And... then they voted to leave later.

2. The Mages have a very good chance to lose because most of the common man fears and hates them, So most of their supplies will be taken by force which will cause resentment and more people to join the templars.

Actually, Cullen states that the templars have been losing public favor for a while now, and this is in Act 1, nine years before the present. Considering that the templars are no longer affiliated with the Chantry and are all violent drug addicts whose supply has been cut off... well, who knows what they'll get up to?

3. Desperate Mages go to Blood Magic, Dragon Age: Origins and DA2 show a very claer patten, mages who want power go to deamons.

Ones who want power, but the rebellion isn't about that.

I think BLOOD MAGES will be DA3's Darkspawn.

You think in a silly manner. For one thing, there wouldn't be enough of them for cannon fodder and none of them would be melee troops. For another thing, they're not really organized. For a third, only one blood mage even showed up in Asunder, the seminal work detailing the reasons for the split and setting the tone for the war to come; blood magic is not a major part here. It was in Kirkwall, but I believe the developers are moving away from that due to negative fan reaction.

Do not pretend that all mages want liberty SOME DO, but OTHERS WANT TO RULE. IF the Mages carve out a 'nation' then it will not be a stable place because the only thing that unites them is a common enermy. They have no end goal other then a vague Freedom. The Templrs have a goal; Prevent an new Tevinter and put mages back in their box.

The rebellion is still quite new; there's plenty of time to form a solid goal to rally behind. You have rather too much faith in one side quickly crumbling, and that's hardly going to happen.

Oh wait, it's not. It is then clear that templars who commit these
crimes are a minuscule minority that can be dealt with without starting a
war.

Why does the vast majority of the Order consider bloodshed to be more important than loyalty, then?

There is nothing wrong with it when it is applied under that criteria.
The fact that one templar and his crookies went against Chantry law
itself and turned innocent into Tranquils doesn't invalidate the Rite
itself.

The Rite is a hideous evil, but perhaps not quite so bad now that it can be cured. Too bad, so sad.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 août 2012 - 06:28 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I personally have no incentive to hope for your sadism to be fulfilled

It's called "Justice" Actual justice, not what Anders uses to justify his terrorism.

As for the rest, the templars could have stood down and let the Chantry take over negotiations with the mages on an equal level, instead of a subordinate level. But Lambert's thirst for blood was too strong, as it seems to be for the vast majority of the Order (else Evangeline wouldn't have needed to leave).

The mages could have returned to Orlais or sent an invitation and open these negations themselves. Instead, they declared the Circle destroyed. They burned all bridges first. It seems like their selfishness was too strong. Evangeline is too lenient, BTW. She is a well intentioned person but incredibly naive.

The Chantry wasn't willing to speak to the Circle as an equal, and as long as the templars were there, would have no incentive to cease its oppression. The mages needed to act; they have done so. The vote is taken. It's the templars' choice to leave the Chantry and prosecute war.

The Chantry was speaking to the Circle as an equal. Justinia was willing, more than that, she wished to make concessions that would improve the lot of the mages.
Unfortunately, there were extremists amongs the mages who accepted nothing less of full freedom and didn't care if they had to start an world war over it.
I'm sure Adrian will make a wonderful Magister one day.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Why does the vast majority of the Order consider bloodshed to be more important than loyalty, then?

This does not follow what you quoted but alright.
First of all, we don't have numbers. You're just assuming it's the majority.
Second, that a great number of templars is not capable of accepting the birth of another magocracy, does not mean these same templars who want to see mages back where they are less dangerous, in the Circle, support raping or beating mages once they are there.
It simply means they don't want another magocracy because the first one is a bastion of evil and immorality and has almost destroyed the world five times.

The Rite is a hideous evil,

Do you want to see actual hideous evil? Look towards Tevinter and the Fade.
The Rite prevents this evil from transpiring into Andrastian society.

[Rinshikai10]

MisterJB if they had gone back to Orlais most of the mages would likely have been killed, or made tranquil regardless of Justinia's intervention. Reading Asunder I never once saw Justinia talking to the mages on equal ground. When Wynne and the others return its not as equals but as boss and subordinate.

Looking through Asunder we learn Justinia disband the collage after Fiona was elected. The peaceful conclave your talking about is a result of her staling act, which unfortunately resulted in the mages not trusting her, despite her intentions.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 05 août 2012 - 06:46 .

[Xilizhra]

It's called "Justice" Actual justice, not what Anders uses to justify his terrorism.

Tranquility is never justice.

The mages could have returned to Orlais or sent an invitation and open these negations themselves. Instead, they declared the Circle destroyed. They burned all bridges first. It seems like their selfishness was too strong. Evangeline is too lenient, BTW. She is a well intentioned person but incredibly naive.

Declaring war was the decision of the templars, not the mages. The Chantry, if you may notice, didn't declare war despite all of this. It's wholly on the head of the templars.

The Chantry was speaking to the Circle as an equal. Justinia was willing, more than that, she wished to make concessions that would improve the lot of the mages.
Unfortunately, there were extremists amongs the mages who accepted nothing less of full freedom and didn't care if they had to start an world war over it.
I'm sure Adrian will make a wonderful Magister one day.

Not even close. It was a small scrap to keep them placated and it was under Lambert's gun the whole time. It was an unjust sham of a concession and quite rightfully thrown out.

First of all, we don't have numbers. You're just assuming it's the majority.

All fifteen knight-commanders agreed, or at least none of them tried to stop it, and the narrative isn't at all shy about the Order's general moral corruption, making a note that Evangeline is an exception.

Second, that a great number of templars is not capable of accepting the birth of another magocracy, does not mean these same templars who want to see mages back where they are less dangerous, in the Circle, support raping or beating mages once they are there.
It simply means they don't want another magocracy because the first one is a bastion of evil and immorality and has almost destroyed the world five times.

If they weren't like that, they'd have listened to Justinia and the Chantry. They did not. They chose instead to launch their independent pogrom.

Do you want to see actual hideous evil? Look towards Tevinter and the Fade.
The Rite prevents this evil from transpiring into Andrastian society.

There's more than one kind of evil in the world. Tranquility is one of these.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Tranquility is never justice.

Yes, it is. Anders and Adrian deserve to be made Tranquil on moral grounds alone.

Declaring war was the decision of the templars, not the mages. The Chantry, if you may notice, didn't declare war despite all of this. It's wholly on the head of the templars.

The mages caused this war when they, selfishly, decided to rule themselves. It's on their heads.
Even moderate templars can't accept the rise of a magocracy.

Not even close. It was a small scrap to keep them placated and it was under Lambert's gun the whole time. It was an unjust sham of a concession and quite rightfully thrown out.

It was a concession and the first step towards positive change that was sabotaged in the most vile of manners by an extremist and unresonable mage.

All fifteen knight-commanders agreed, or at least none of them tried to stop it, and the narrative isn't at all shy about the Order's general moral corruption, making a note that Evangeline is an exception.

We barely know what is happening. You are just assuming that all Knight Commanders have abandoned the Chantry which might prove to not be true.
What the narrative implies is that both sides distrust and fear each other and that there are moderates and extremists on both sides.

If they weren't like that, they'd have listened to Justinia and the Chantry. They did not. They chose instead to launch their independent pogrom.

Once against you equal unwilligness to let dangerous people roam free witsh wishing to rape them.
Can you truly not see the fault with this reasoning?

There's more than one kind of evil in the world. Tranquility is one of these.

A rite that strips a mage of his emotions but also saves the lives of the people he would eventually kill. Because if the Rite was used, that mage was dangerous.
I can live with this "evil".

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 août 2012 - 07:03 .

[Xilizhra]

The mages caused this war when they, selfishly, decided to rule themselves. It's on their heads.

The mages didn't leave the tower and start burning buildings down. The templars are the ones attacking.

It was a concession and the first step towards positive change that was sabotaged in the most vile of manners by an extremist and unresonable mage.

Too little, too late. Did Justinia deserve to inherit this situation? Maybe not, but she hasn't done nearly enough to fix it.

We barely know what is happening. You are just assuming that all Knight Commanders have abandoned the Chantry which might prove to not be true.
What the narrative implies is that both sides distrust and fear each other and that there are moderates and extremists on both sides.

The moderate mage votes to fight. The moderate templar leaves the Order. This strikes me as rather significant.

Once against you equal unwilligness to let dangerous people roam free to wishing to rape them.
Can you truly not see the fault with this reasoning?

Wishing to kill them all. It's about as bad.

A rite that strips a mage of his emotions but also saves the lives of the people he would eventually kill. Because if the Rite was used, that mage was dangerous.
I can live with this "evil".

I'm sure you can. I, meanwhile, will live far more successfully with freedom.

[MisterJB]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

MisterJB if they had gone back to Orlais most of the mages would likely have been killed, or made tranquil regardless of Justinia's intervention.

Only if they had placed themselves at the mercy of the templars.
What they should have done was place themselves at a reasonable distance of the capital and send a messengers saying they were willing to talk and reach an agreement that could satisfy both sides.
Even the templars would hesitate to attack a hundred mages at once. This is preferable to simply declare themselve free and burn all bridges.

Reading Asunder I never once saw Justinia talking to the mages on equal ground. When Wynne and the others return its not as equals but as boss and subordinate.

Protocol had to be followed in the Grand Cathedral but what I saw was Justinia, Wynne and Leliana working together as equals to better the lives of the mages somewhat.

Looking through Asunder we learn Justinia disband the collage after Fiona was elected. The peaceful conclave your talking about is a result of her staling act, which unfortunately resulted in the mages not trusting her, despite her intentions.

We don't know enough about why she disbanded the collage. Since she was willing to listen to a clearly violent and desperate mage that just invaded her party, I am willing to bet Justinia had good reasons.
Anders had just commited an act of terrorism, after all. It must have made Libertarians come out from under their rocks and sing on the halls.

[MisterJB]

BrotherWarth wrote...
What possible concessions could the mages make? They're already imprisoned and threatened with either physical death or death of the soul if they step out of line.

Easy, the mages agree to return to the Circles if the templars agree to treat them with dignity and respect.

Would it be easy to reach this agreement? No, neither side trusts each other. But anything is preferable to starting a world war.
Nevermind the Qunari will, undoubtedly, take advantage of this turmoil.

No revolution has ever been waged without loss of life. You blame it all on the mages, but how does the Chantry garner no blame? The Seekers antagonized the leadership of the circle at every turn in Asunder. Lambert was a tyrant. He did more to spark the revolt than Hawke did. And what concessions was the Chantry willing to make? I recall no concessions offered in Asunder.

This "revolution" shouldn't be waged in the first place. These aren't priviliged people opressing the common man. These are necessary measures meant contain dangerous prisioners. It's a bloody prison riot.

Lambert is an well intetioned extremist. He ordered the conclave disbanded which degenerated into viollence and that earns him some blame.
But it was Adrian who instigated this situation. Had she not murdered the...mage, Lambert wouldn't have done what he did. She is the true villain of Asunder.

That the Chantry allowed the First Enchanters to gather and help decide what was to be done with this new information regarding the Rite was a concession and the first step towards positive change.
A step that was sabotaged by both Fiona and Adrian.

[Xilizhra]

Nevermind the Qunari will, undoubtedly, take advantage of this turmoil.

What's hilarious is that Tevinter probably saves the day here by its presence. The qunari might accelerate their invasion timetable for the rest of Thedas, but hardly without cost to them.

As for the rest? Well, more opinions, but I rather believe that the narrative vindicates mine and will continue to do so.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The mages didn't leave the tower and start burning buildings down. The templars are the ones attacking.

They left the tower and had no intentions of returning.
That is very, very bad.

Too little, too late. Did Justinia deserve to inherit this situation? Maybe not, but she hasn't done nearly enough to fix it.

Too late? What, is magic going to dissapear and I wasn't aware? They have all the time in the world.
The thing is: to you, "fixing it" means disbanding the Templars. So, I'm not surprised you don't think she did enough.
Hey, maybe she would have done more if Fiona and Adrian hadn't sabotaged her efforts.

Wishing to kill them all. It's about as bad.

And how do you know they wish to kill them all? All we have is Lambert's opinion.
Maybe most templars just wish the status quo returned.

I'm sure you can. I, meanwhile, will live far more successfully with freedom.

Freedom for mages means opression for mundanes more often than not.
And we won't get a luxurious tower, either.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 août 2012 - 07:31 .

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. The mages never voted to leave, they voted to stay and then radicals arranged events so as to start a war.

And... then they voted to leave later.

2. The Mages have a very good chance to lose because most of the common man fears and hates them, So most of their supplies will be taken by force which will cause resentment and more people to join the templars.

Actually, Cullen states that the templars have been losing public favor for a while now, and this is in Act 1, nine years before the present. Considering that the templars are no longer affiliated with the Chantry and are all violent drug addicts whose supply has been cut off... well, who knows what they'll get up to?

3. Desperate Mages go to Blood Magic, Dragon Age: Origins and DA2 show a very claer patten, mages who want power go to deamons.

Ones who want power, but the rebellion isn't about that.

I think BLOOD MAGES will be DA3's Darkspawn.

You think in a silly manner. For one thing, there wouldn't be enough of them for cannon fodder and none of them would be melee troops. For another thing, they're not really organized. For a third, only one blood mage even showed up in Asunder, the seminal work detailing the reasons for the split and setting the tone for the war to come; blood magic is not a major part here. It was in Kirkwall, but I believe the developers are moving away from that due to negative fan reaction.

Do not pretend that all mages want liberty SOME DO, but OTHERS WANT TO RULE. IF the Mages carve out a 'nation' then it will not be a stable place because the only thing that unites them is a common enermy. They have no end goal other then a vague Freedom. The Templrs have a goal; Prevent an new Tevinter and put mages back in their box.

The rebellion is still quite new; there's plenty of time to form a solid goal to rally behind. You have rather too much faith in one side quickly crumbling, and that's hardly going to happen.

Oh wait, it's not. It is then clear that templars who commit these
crimes are a minuscule minority that can be dealt with without starting a
war.

Why does the vast majority of the Order consider bloodshed to be more important than loyalty, then?

There is nothing wrong with it when it is applied under that criteria.
The fact that one templar and his crookies went against Chantry law
itself and turned innocent into Tranquils doesn't invalidate the Rite
itself.

The Rite is a hideous evil, but perhaps not quite so bad now that it can be cured. Too bad, so sad.

1. When did they vote to leave? There was a fight and then they just left, it was a snap decision. 

2. That was the recurtment quest was it? Also Krikwall is a very unique situation. And a bunch of Mages running around will change peoples opions very quickly. On the 'Templar Drug Addicts' argument it would not suprise me if they made a deal with the Dwaves, Templars are a well know and on the whole, well respected order who have more links with the comunity then the Mages, many of whom have never left the tower, allowing them to get supplies, including their drugs. That being said it will be interesting to see how the local Chantry reacts to the Templars leaving, given the way they used to work together.

3. The Rebellion is all about power, freedom is the power to choose what to do with your life.

4. The solution is Blood controled Thralls, a group of melee/bow thralls wit one or two Blood Mages there pulling the strings. Like they had with that Gang in the DA2 night Quest "Red Run Streets", in High town Act 3. They can get orgaized or simply highjack the current Mage orgaisation. Thridly we don't know what the devs are doing, don't forget what they said leading up to DA2 and ME3.

5. I never said they would crumble, don't put words in my mouth, they will stay united as long as the Templars make it to dangerous to split up. What I said was " If they carve out their own 'nation' " they would have problems, the mages are made up of groups with different  out looks and forming a nation will not be easy. Thus they do not start off with a solid goal like the Templars. 

6. Loyalty is a two way street. The Divine was not Loyal to them and they returned it in kind. 

7. So what now? Just kill them. A Blood mage will take away your free will, you become a puppet inside your own body. That is hidious, I say they deserve it. Also it is not ment to be cruel, it is ment be an alternative to killin them.

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

Yet it's still canon.  Don't get me wrong I'm not berating Merrill for it or giving her a hard time but it demonstrates that even people who know what they're doing, who've prepared themselves, can still be overpowered or outwitted.

In the Fade, where the higher-ranked Demons can mind control you because they're at their most powerful in their natural homeland.

And even then, she's able to clearly resist and overpower mind control/influence if you call on her to assist you with Idunna.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Demons can't operate that way

Actually, they can. The codex on Desire and Pride Demons in DAO told us that they can control minds and we have evidence to support that Demons are at their most powerful when in the Fade -- and when they're not in the Fade, they're weakened substantially.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 08:21 .

[Ausstig]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Remember Kester in DA:O? The Ferryman at Lake Calenhad. He is neutral and not fear mages at all. When asked about his opinion about mages, he said "The Maker who made them, if you don't trust the Maker, who you want to trust?"

See? Even a Ferryman said that, no need for a High Priest or Grand Cleric

That man worked with Mages every day, those refuees, owed Anders, as well as some nationlistic reasons (people of the same country in a forgien land stick together and all that). On the Maker, making them, He likes to test the pople.

On the blood control, two things:

1. It would not have gone over well, if/when you release them.

2. Gameplay/Lore seperation is the whole point of this thread. They could not give an unfair advantage to one spesization, people would complain.