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[TEWR]

It should be noted that Ferelden has become increasingly pro-mage thanks in large part to the Mages' Collective, who made it a point to make problems disappear before the Chantry got involved.

[Melca36]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nevermind the Qunari will, undoubtedly, take advantage of this turmoil.

What's hilarious is that Tevinter probably saves the day here by its presence. The qunari might accelerate their invasion timetable for the rest of Thedas, but hardly without cost to them.

As for the rest? Well, more opinions, but I rather believe that the narrative vindicates mine and will continue to do so.

Mages and Templars will likely ban together in the event of a massive Qunari invasion. And if defeated, mages will be granted more freedoms because I believe the Chantry has buried alot of secrets that will be revealed and they will lose power because of it.

[MisterJB]

They defend Anders because he is useful. That's it.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It should be noted that Ferelden has become increasingly pro-mage thanks in large part to the Mages' Collective, who made it a point to make problems disappear before the Chantry got involved.

Source?

[TEWR]

Well, nationalism may factor into it Nizaris1. I wouldn't cast that out of hand so easily. But yes, it's primarily because of the fact that he's a healer working for free. There's lore that states that Spirit Healers would be the most accepted -- or at the very least, tolerated -- types of Mages if they were free, because of what benefits the magic can do.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Source?

The Collective's Arming Cowl you can buy from Bodahn. The item description -- which is lore -- tells us this:

Identified by a simple runic pattern on the inverse, this cowl was commissioned by a group of mages who improve the perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 08:33 .

[Ausstig]

Nizaris1 wrote...

How about Morrigan and Wayne? They are not Grey Warden as the PC Mage. Yet they are NOT dangerous to anybody. They not going into town making blood sacrifice to people.

Morrigan and Wayne roaming all around Ferelden with not one such act that harm the people they meet.

Morrigan is not a Blood Mage, she just Apostate, and still she didn't pursue to become more powerful than anybody else, she is willingly to help the Warden and going through all the risk to help the Warden to the end.

Wayne can be considered as abomination, but she's not dangerous at all, she is a healer and save my Warden butt every time with her healing power. Canonically, if not because of her "Vessel of Spirit", the Warden and all party members dead at the hand of Hurlock Emissary

In DA:O, after saving the Circle, those mages going to Redcliff without Templar supervision. You can meet them on the road fighting darkspawn. You may ask the master enchanter there where they are going. None of them running away from the Circle, resolve to blood magic, become insane like Tarohne

So, mages are HUMAN (or ELF), all human are the same. Their ambition are the same with other human, their weaknesses are also the same with other human. They can bleed like other human, they have emotion, love, passion, and think as other human too...they drink and eat like other human, they ****** and **** like other human too...their blood is red like other human. If they are good they are as good as good human, if they are bad they are as bad as bad human.

Magephobic and paranoia of the Chantry is ridiculous.

How about Mage Hawke? Does he/she become Magister of Kirkwall?

Yes. S/He does if you want. 


Wynn is FROM THE TOWER. She is a Circle Mage and well trained and lucky to ne possed by a nice deamon or what ever that thing inside her is.

Morrigan is very dangerious to others. We just don't see her. She also has enough power to get by and doesn't need to make a deal with a deamon because noting is threatening her.

most of the circle Mages who wanted 'freedom' or who would deal with deamons are dead. Also, we don't know if any did run away or use blood magic we just don't see it.  


Finally Mages being human is one of my main arguments, they are just as flawed as any human only with god like powers and it is a bad mix.

Modifié par Ausstig, 05 août 2012 - 08:54 .

[MisterJB]

People see him as a free doctor. If he started refusing to heal, he would be betrayed to the templars for half a copper.

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Anders is ANDERS, see?

By blood. Whether he was actually born there is never known, though IIRC some of his codex entries state that he's lived in the Fereldan Circle his entire life since he was found out to be a Mage -- and when he was found out, the Templars dragged him away from his mother and cast him in chains.
 

Nationalism is not the factor.

I said it could be a factor. It's certainly not the primary one. I never said it was. I said it could be a factor in why they're defending him.

Of course he work for free, people defend him not because of he work for free. Still people don't see him as Spirit Healer, people see him as a Mage and Ex-Grey Warden.

A Spirit Healer is Mage. They don't need to know the terminology or refer to him as such to appreciate him for what he does. If he wasn't a Spirit Healer, there's not much he would've been able to do for them. The Creation tree is the hardest school to master -- and by extenstion, being a Spirit Healer -- so they are supporting him because he's a Spirit Healer, 

That he's a Mage helping them freely in exchange for anonymity from the Templars only makes them believe further that Mages should be able to help the community.

And saying "This mage" rolls off the tongue better then "This Spirit Healer".

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 08:45 .

[The Hierophant]

Nizaris1 wrote...

How about Morrigan and Wayne? They are not Grey Warden as the PC Mage. Yet they are NOT dangerous to anybody. They not going into town making blood sacrifice to people.

Morrigan and Wayne roaming all around Ferelden with not one such act that harm the people they meet.

Morrigan is not a Blood Mage, she just Apostate, and still she didn't pursue to become more powerful than anybody else, she is willingly to help the Warden and going through all the risk to help the Warden to the end.

Wayne can be considered as abomination, but she's not dangerous at all, she is a healer and save my Warden butt every time with her healing power. Canonically, if not because of her "Vessel of Spirit", the Warden and all party members dead at the hand of Hurlock Emissary

In DA:O, after saving the Circle, those mages going to Redcliff without Templar supervision. You can meet them on the road fighting darkspawn. You may ask the master enchanter there where they are going. None of them running away from the Circle, resolve to blood magic, become insane like Tarohne

So, mages are HUMAN (or ELF), all human are the same. Their ambition are the same with other human, their weaknesses are also the same with other human. They can bleed like other human, they have emotion, love, passion, and think as other human too...they drink and eat like other human, they ****** and **** like other human too...their blood is red like other human. If they are good they are as good as good human, if they are bad they are as bad as bad human.

Magephobic and paranoia of the Chantry is ridiculous.

How about Mage Hawke? Does he/she become Magister of Kirkwall?

Even though we've seen some good/nuetral mages there are also people like Danarius, Hadriana, Danzig, Decimus, Grace, Idunna, Tarohne, Lady Harimann, Gascard, Quentin, Orsino, Anders, Huon, Jowan, Uldred, Caladrius, The Baroness, and magisters of the Tevinter Imperium who adds weight to the Chantry's stance on mages.

[MisterJB]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Even if Anders charge a fee, people understand, the people are not fool and blind and notorious as what you try to show

People in Darktown don't have money to pay him. If they can earn money by selling him to the templars, that's what they'll do. People are selfish.

The Hierophant wrote...
Even though we've seen some
good/nuetral mages there are also people like Danarius, Hadriana,
Danzig, Decimus, Grace, Idunna, Tarohne, Lady Harimann, Gascard,
Quentin, Orsino, Anders, Huon, Jowan, Uldred, Caladrius, The Baroness,
and magisters of the Tevinter Imperium who adds weight to the Chantry's
stance on mages.

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]
Nice list. I should probrably save it

[Melca36]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...
....owed Anders, as well as some nationlistic reasons (people of the same country in a forgien land stick together and all that)

Those ferelden refugees defending Anders not because Anders is Ferelden, but because Anders is a mage, look at their dialogue

"We don't want to give him to the Blighted Templar"

"We know what Kirkwaller do to Mages!"

No, they defend Anders not because of nationalism.

Perfectly said. Some people were so brainwashed into only seeing one side though.  It makes me hope DA:3 will ****** them off.

[TEWR]

[quote]The Hierophant wrote...

Decimus[/quote]

I see Decimus as a hero rather then anyone that should be villified. And plot stupidity, but given what we're forced to accept I see him as more of hero.


[quote], Grace[/quote]

Plot stupidity took her over.


[quote], Idunna[/quote]

She can repent if she's spared.


[quote]Lady Harimann[/quote]

We're told she was never a Mage and that the Harimann family has never had magic in her family, so it seems she was granted the ability to be a Mage by the Demon.


[quote]Gascard[/quote]

Can repent if spared.


[quote]Quentin[/quote]

If the Chantry had routine psychological exams for their Templars and the Mages, Quentin wouldn't have happened.

[quote]
Orsino[/quote]

Forced into desperation because of an unjust Annulment that broke his mind -- which automatically absolves him of anything he did during that time, because the blame rests squarely on the Templars and the Chantry -- and because of plot stupidity/Bioware valuing gameplay over a story that made sense.

[quote]
Huon[/quote]

Pushed into it by the Templars of Kirkwall for a myriad of reasons, the most notable being he was taken away in chains -- or was it just dragged away? -- and restricted from ever seeing his wife. And more then likely abuse, given Kirkwall's nature.

So while he was a criminal, had the Templars not pushed him into it he wouldn't have done anything wrong. Had he been allowed to see his wife and even live with her in Kirkwall proper, then he wouldn't have gone insane.

[quote]
, Jowan[/quote]

Jowan's a good Mage. A bumbler, but a good mage. He'll defend refugees from the Darkspawn if told to leave Redcliffe and never return or alternatively stay and try to fix a situation, despite the fact that his life may be taken from him.

[quote]
, Uldred[/quote]

His intentions were good, even though his methods were idiotic on how to achieve them -- and prior to that moment, what he did to hide his own status as a maleficar was cruel, sadistic, manipulative, and whatever else. So half-and-half really. Good intentions, idiotic man who thought primarily of himself and gave weight to some of the Chantry's claims.

Wynne's more at fault really, because she had no grasp of actual warfare and thought that the battle could've been won -- when it couldn't have been.

Had she kept her trap shut, things would've been fine. And she even says she regrets saying what she did.

Granted, it's also Uldred's fault that he resorted to summoning demons like Pride and Desire, but eh... like I said it's half-and-half.

[quote]and magisters of the Tevinter Imperium who adds weight to the Chantry's stance on mages.
[/quote]

Not all of the Magisters are douchebags. Those Mages that don't use blood magic are just the lowest in the Senate or slaves themselves.

One eventually rose to Archon and made slavery illegal in Tevinter. Unfortunately, he was assassinated soon after.

Though it should be noted that Feynriel is apprenticed to a Magister -- if the correct path was taken -- and he's doing good things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 09:06 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Pushed into it by the Templars of Kirkwall for a myriad of reasons, the most notable being he was taken away in chains -- or was it just dragged away? -- and restricted from ever seeing his wife. And more then likely abuse.

So while he was a criminal, had the Templars not pushed him into it he wouldn't have done anything wrong. Had he been allowed to see his wife and even live with her in Kirkwall proper, then he wouldn't have gone insane.

That claim can't be supported. If anything, his wish to "show everyone true elven power" suggests he would have abused his magic eventually in revenge against humanity. The templars are not to blame for what Huon did.

Other things: Repentace doesn't automatically absolve someone of their crimes and magical accidents still serve to prove magic is dangerous.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 août 2012 - 09:08 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...
That claim can't be supported. If anything, his wish to "show everyone true elven power" suggests he would have abused his magic eventually in revenge against humanity. The templars are not to blame for what Huon did.

They are. If you break a man's mind and spirit, then they'll do things they wouldn't have otherwise done.

That said, you're equally correct in saying he may have done it anyway. Considering that Elves receive no justice anywhere in Thedas, are easily abused/murdered, and kept from doing anything simply for being Elves then it's certainly possible he may have retaliated.

But I don't see it as likely to have happened, for one simple reason: we have evidence from Nyssa that Huon was a different man prior to being dragged to the Circle. He was a good, kind, caring person.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Other things: Repentace doesn't automatically absolve someone of their crimes

Maybe. This isn't really a topic I want to get into though, as it's dependant on a lot of factors. The who, the why, the when, etc.

But for Orsino, he is absolved of anything he did then.

and magical accidents still serve to prove magic is dangerous.

I never claimed magic wasn't dangerous or that Mages shouldn't be taught how to properly use it.

Nizaris1 wrote...

In anyway, Anders is a Grey Warden, even people sold him out, as a Grey Warden he is not subjected to Chantry/Circle/Templar law. He just hiding because don't want get involve in any problem with the Chantry/templar

He's an ex-Grey Warden now -- as retired as a Blight-tainted person can be, considering he'd probably eventually find his death in the Deep Roads or the Blightlands.

He's not a part of the organization anymore, despite still being connected to the Darkspawn hive mind. As such, Chantry immunity isn't something he has anymore.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2012 - 09:17 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They are. If you break a man's mind and spirit, then they'll do things they wouldn't have otherwise done.

That said, you're equally correct in saying he may have done it anyway. Considering that Elves receive no justice anywhere in Thedas, are easily abused/murdered, and kept from doing anything simply for being Elves then it's certainly possible he may have retaliated.

But I don't see it as likely to have happened, for one simple reason: we have evidence from Nyssa that Huon was a different man prior to being dragged to the Circle. He was a good, kind, caring person.

We have no evidence of any abuse other than him being dragged in chains which seems not enough to break a man's spirit considering a lot of mages are taken to the Circl in such a manner. His good nature might have been reserved to elves and his change could be the result of having power at his fingertips like he never dreamed before and finally having the means to take his revenge on humanity.

Many templars in Kirkwall are abusive, no question, but I fail to see what kind of hummiliating punishment could lead him to kill his wife.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But for Orsino, he is absolved of anything he did then.

Orsino didn't do anything that couldn't be justified.
Had he slaugthered innocents mundanes to power his blood magic, then we would have a disagreement.

I never claimed magic wasn't dangerous or that Mages shouldn't be taught how to properly use it.

True but Uldred and Jowan are proof of how even properly taught mages can commit terrible mistakes and unleash unspeakable evil.
Uldred was of an ambitious and selfish nature. What if he had attempted to summon demons in a place where the templar response would be slower?