193 réponses à ce sujet

[android654]

slimgrin wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

 I've seen no compelling evidence that a brain is the only type of hardware capable of supporting a mind.

Proof. I want it.

You cant prove a negative.

[Clover Rider]

As long as it's Ghost in the Shell style, why not?

[Inquisitor Recon]

I'm calling it now. This can only end badly. You'll remember that when you're working in a labor camp for the cyborg master race.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 05 août 2012 - 01:35 .

[ObserverStatus]

Confess-A-Bear wrote...
No its more like the other side doesn't want to sell its body and to some of us our souls to a machine. There are biological and technological goals on going such as space exploration that won't force us into some crazy ass matrix crap.
Also it is immoral and wrong

True, but nothing a little necromancy won't fix.  Just read the black book, and learn how to make the robot into a joul jar for yourself.

[DarkDragon777]

I'll pass, thanks.

[Arch1eviathan]

Sign me up!

[android654]

greengoron89 wrote...

Lots of presumptuous a**holes in this thread - tell me, do you think it's possible not to be interested in transferring one's consciousness into a machine simply because they find the prospect uncomfortable, and not because of some religious or moral qualm?

Because I just find the concept downright creepy - I do not need a reason or owe anyone an explanation why.

You might have had a point, except that people against this have been claiming moral and ethical superiority without explaining why. That's pompous.

[Rockworm503]

android654 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Is true immortality even possible? Taking out age just guarantees that at some point something will come and mess you up and you will fail to adapt and be destroyed. Being ageless isn't the same as being beyond mortality.

It's called baby steps. We didn't just invent the internet one day. Face to face communication, letters, radios, telephones... See where I'm going witht this?

Are you saying Al Gore lied??????

[Rockworm503]

greengoron89 wrote...

Lots of presumptuous a**holes in this thread - tell me, do you think it's possible not to be interested in transferring one's consciousness into a machine simply because they find the prospect uncomfortable, and not because of some religious or moral qualm?

Because I just find the concept downright creepy - I do not need a reason or owe anyone an explanation why.

No one has mentioned creepiness factor or how uncomfortable it is.  Though I admit it kind if creeps me out a little your the first to even bring it up.
Most people are saying its immoral and wrong.
That stems from religious or moral qualm thats not being presumptuous thats reading what people are saying. 

[tklivory]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Are you saying Al Gore lied??????

 What?  Politicians can't lie!  Politicans never lie!  Noooooooooooooooo!  *runs off screaming*

Sorry, couldn't resist... 

Aaaaanyway, I would like to take the opportunity to invite a true debate on the whys and why nots of the concept of transferring 'humanity', if you will, into a non-human shell.  Rather than a flat declaration of 'I don't like it', please, offer reasons why you don't.  "It's not natural" doesn't really qualify, nor does 'it's immoral', because immorality is ethereal and varies from location to location and from person to person.  Think it will be impossible to re-create certain aspects of the endocrine system without using true biology?  Please expound!  Think it's shouldn't happen because... because... because...?  Of course, feel as you wish, but allow us to speculate and discuss without feeling condemnation. 

Now, as a recommendation for a fine series of fictional stories that deal rather well with the idea of moving humanity away from 'the flesh' and into realms that didn't emerge through evolution/design/whatever, I'd encourage you all to read Transmetropolitan (a comic book series) for a quick course in the ups and downs of the technologically enhanced in the 'near future.'  Anyone else familiar with it?

Modifié par tklivory, 05 août 2012 - 02:39 .

[tklivory]

Rubios wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

I'm calling it now. This can only end badly. You'll remember that when you're working in a labor camp for the cyborg master race.

We just enjoy a superior gaming platform, there is no wish to enslave anyone.

And that was the day Skynet gained awareness...

[Rockworm503]

Eh this thread is pretty interesting. I don't want it to be shut down. Besides people are being civil.

[wsandista]

No

[naughty99]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Eh this thread is pretty interesting. I don't want it to be shut down. Besides people are being civil.

Agreed, yes, it is an interesting concept, so please don't make comments about religion, which is not a permitted topic here.

[Guy-b_Guyberton]

So someone is making a composer, eh.

[Guy-b_Guyberton]

What was that movie called where everyones minds were transfered into remotely controlled machine bodies? Cause i think things started going bad pretty fast in that movie.

[Costin_Razvan]

Aaaaanyway, I would like to take the opportunity to invite a true debate on the whys and why nots of the concept of transferring 'humanity', if you will, into a non-human shell.

Simple: How you ensure that by transferring your conscience into a robot body do you still remain yourself and you aren't simply creating a copy while your original mind is killed? Current theories hold that trying to transfer the mind would result in a copy being created.

Until such a time that it's proven that a mind can be transferred to a robotic body and for that mind to be the original rather then a mere copy there is no worth discussing this.

On a final note I am disquieted by people who look at stuff like this and say: What a cool idea, without understanding the implications. We live in one body and for us to transfer ourselves to another is something that would take a lot of getting used to.

Personally I prefer that humanity focus on achieving biological immortality through medicine rather then attemping to create new bodies ( any doctor worth his salt will tell you we know very little about our current bodies, how the hell can we create new ones?! ). Augmentations are one thing, but a whole human body is another.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 août 2012 - 08:33 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

android654 wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

Lots of presumptuous a**holes in this thread - tell me, do you think it's possible not to be interested in transferring one's consciousness into a machine simply because they find the prospect uncomfortable, and not because of some religious or moral qualm?

Because I just find the concept downright creepy - I do not need a reason or owe anyone an explanation why.

You might have had a point, except that people against this have been claiming moral and ethical superiority without explaining why. That's pompous.

So the over-population I mentioned and status system is moral and ethical? If everyone can transfer their consciousness into a robot then there will be millions who will do that most likely and as the years go by, more and more people will do the same and then we could end up with a very over-populated earth because the robots don't die. If this practice is saved for the rich then that's unfair and eventually I can already imagine seeing such people worshipped as idols when they've lived for five centuries.

What about normal humans who refuse this practice? They will be forced into it to survive because robots will be physical stronger and will take all the jobs and no one will bother hiring normal humans. No one should be forced to give up their body for a metal piece of junk.

So not just moral and ethical problems here, social problems too.

I think scientists who attempt this practice will soon discover it's likely impossible anyway when they discover that you can't transfer the soul. You can transfer a personality maybe but that's like creating a clone of yourself, it won't have your consciousness.

Costin raises a good point too. The scientists might say they have transferred the consciousness but how can they be sure it's the original consciousness and not just a copy? Meanwhile you're really dead while a robotic avatar of you with YOUR personality impersonates you and mimics your life.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 05 août 2012 - 09:36 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I think scientists who attempt this practice will soon discover it's likely impossible anyway when they discover that you can't transfer the soul. You can transfer a personality maybe but that's like creating a clone of yourself, it won't have your consciousness

I bet you will soon have people claiming it's just hogwash.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 05 août 2012 - 09:41 .

[eroeru]

android654 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

 I've seen no compelling evidence that a brain is the only type of hardware capable of supporting a mind.

Proof. I want it.

You cant prove a negative.

It seems one cannot prove anything on an internet forum, and that's for the better I think.
The topics that rise up are hardly narrowed-down enough for making a constructive argument or two.

Anyway, about having a consciousness on a non-organic, non-biochemical type of "hardware" - I'm fairly certain it is implausibe, and no one can say more about it than state crude "plausibility" arguments, only because we cannot objectively know much about consciousness, as the term denotes a subjective quality - and hence we cannot well go farther than the most crude identifications of the "person". We recognise that a person has a consciousness via behavior AND study of physiology. Now which one is more relevant? I for one am fairly confident that behaviorism is a failure of a program, this because of very high deviations and aberrancies, and a little thing called "veil of perception". Behaviorists cannot link any perceptually gathered piece of data to one's consciousness firmly because they cannot establish the connection as essential - it's clearly a one-way connection, as in consciousness -> behavior, and this much is established, but we cannot have behavior defining consciousness with no more. Really, the main point is that behavior alone can NOT POSSIBLY be any indicator of what goes on "inside", as it is only "outer", or "doxastic" in its explanative power. And consciousness is of another category completely.

 In physiology we have a two-way connection. If one alters brain anatomy or biochemistry, one can possibly alter consciousness.  So consciousness can be more clearly and better explained via a form of physicalism. Now, we cannot make the leap of assigning consiousness to a physically/chemically completely different "system".  

By behavior alone we cannot assign any consciousness (on a robot), and we cannot possibly think the physical, ie more essential form of consciousness-expression to be similar enough in a robot. (unless it's a sort of homunculi, and that's basically the same thing as a human being - it's biological)

The other problem is logic. We cannot say human reasoning is built on logic and I personally believe it is strictly otherwise, involving some undeterministic quantum stuff or whatnot. AI is built on logic. That's the second essential differenct between a robot AI and a biological mind.

So that's two ways in which the two type of "beings" are essentially different from the perspective of consiousness, imo. And I cannot see any point in which they are the same, aside the very unessential and imo irrelevant behavioristic data.

Modifié par eroeru, 05 août 2012 - 10:19 .

[mousestalker]

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

With a little thought it is obvious that this project is pragmatically a waste of time and resources and is deviance of purpose;
and also morally wrong because:

1) This machine might do and say the things you wouldn't in your RL.

2) It caused the possibility that the VI turns to Some rogue AI with the knowledge of the person who his/her brain data is transformed to that VI, but it doesn't have the same characteristics. This new abomination may use any program, data and logic to achieve its new goals. It's extremely dangerous.

If you get consciousnesses in that thing it is likely that your nature changes and you're not part of the biological-natural world anymore, you get a power to manipulate and your new virtual beliefs may force you to abuse this power against the ordinary flesh&blood humans.