[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...
So the over-population I mentioned and status system is moral and ethical? If everyone can transfer their consciousness into a robot then there will be millions who will do that most likely and as the years go by, more and more people will do the same and then we could end up with a very over-populated earth because the robots don't die. If this practice is saved for the rich then that's unfair and eventually I can already imagine seeing such people worshipped as idols when they've lived for five centuries.[/quote]
The world is overpopulated right now. We've made new organisms in an attempt to combat that issue, but it's not enough. As a result of that we have corporations and governments alike that are in the process of deciding if we can branch out into the ocean, underground, the moon, mars, etc. The addition of certain people living longer would help or hurt the situation as it exists now.
[quote]What about normal humans who refuse this practice? They will be forced into it to survive because robots will be physical stronger and will take all the jobs and no one will bother hiring normal humans. No one should be forced to give up their body for a metal piece of junk.[/quote]
They stay in their normal bodies. How is this even a concern? Have you been forced to move anywhere? Forced to take up a particular job? Forced to purchase a particular item? If you live in a republic in the industrialized world, you have been more or less free your entire life. The addition of life extension wouldn't change that
[quote]So not just moral and ethical problems here, social problems too.[/quote]
What social problems?
[quote]I think scientists who attempt this practice will soon discover it's likely impossible anyway when they discover that you can't transfer the soul. You can transfer a personality maybe but that's like creating a clone of yourself, it won't have your consciousness.[/quote]
How myopic. People said the same about the airplane, the telephone, the computer, etc. There are many governments heavily invested in reverse engineering the human brain. The Blue Brain Project[/quote] is a good example with several EU countries investing in it, and many others trying to recreate the science of it on their own. If you look at life extension sciences, the goal is to preserve and keep the human brain functioning outside of the host body. If you have a soul it exists solely in the human brain. Your "soul" isn't in your foot, arm, or chest. The brain would house all you would need to transfer consciousness to another platform or body.
[quote]Costin raises a good point too. The scientists might say they have transferred the consciousness but how can they be sure it's the original consciousness and not just a copy? Meanwhile you're really dead while a robotic avatar of you with YOUR personality impersonates you and mimics your life.[/quote]
What if people do want to have a copy of themselves existing on a host computer? What is the harm of having people do with their own bodies what they will? How do you have moral superiority to claim that you are the only authority to deem what people should do with their bodies, brain, or personality? What about people with severe paralysis like professor Hawking? Do people like him not deserve the right to have a life in a body? A life they were denied simply by being born in a sick body. If you do have this moral superiority that allows you to deem what is decent for people to do with themselves, how do you prove it?
Transfer Your Consciousness to a Robot Avatar by 2045
Débuté par
naughty99
, août 03 2012 04:14
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#127
Posté 05 août 2012 - 01:24
Kaiser Arian XVII
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Guy-b_Guyberton wrote...
What was that movie called where everyones minds were transfered into remotely controlled machine bodies? Cause i think things started going bad pretty fast in that movie.
Doctor Who?
Futurama has also the famous heads in those cylinders...
#128
Posté 05 août 2012 - 01:38
Eternal Phoenix
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[quote]android654 wrote...
The world is overpopulated right now. We've made new organisms in an attempt to combat that issue, but it's not enough. As a result of that we have corporations and governments alike that are in the process of deciding if we can branch out into the ocean, underground, the moon, mars, etc. The addition of certain people living longer would help or hurt the situation as it exists now.
[/quote]
It's not overpopulated. Cities and towns are overpopulated but there's plenty of plains and deserts which - with the right work - can be transformed into places that humans can live in. The governments and corporations you speak of must be filled with those mad scientists then who think biological immortailty will be achieved in 2015.
[quote]android654 wrote...
They stay in their normal bodies. How is this even a concern? Have you been forced to move anywhere? Forced to take up a particular job? Forced to purchase a particular item? If you live in a republic in the industrialized world, you have been more or less free your entire life. The addition of life extension wouldn't change that.
[/quote]
You didn't listen to the argument then. If robots are physical stronger and can performs tasks for longer then they will be the ones who are hired and not normal humans. As robots increase in numbers, more employers will take them on while normal humans discarded and will end up either with horrible jobs or forcing themselves to become robots.
[quote]android654 wrote...
What social problems?
[/quote]
Depends...
Everyone can become a robot = Overpopulation.
Select people can become robots = Unfariness and eventually these people will start being worshiped as idols. World leaders will become immortal and they will regard themselves as being better than everyone else.
Depending on what becomes the majority (human or machine) the minority will be descriminated against.
[quote]android654 wrote...
How myopic. People said the same about the airplane, the telephone, the computer, etc. There are many governments heavily invested in reverse engineering the human brain. The Blue Brain Project[/quote] is a good example with several EU countries investing in it, and many others trying to recreate the science of it on their own. If you look at life extension sciences, the goal is to preserve and keep the human brain functioning outside of the host body. If you have a soul it exists solely in the human brain. Your "soul" isn't in your foot, arm, or chest. The brain would house all you would need to transfer consciousness to another platform or body.
[/quote]
How does the soul exist in the human brain when people who have experienced clinical death - where their brain and heart stops working completely - have experienced an OOBE and travelled to another realm of existence? Many doctors have verified these accounts and NDE's and OOBE's have a considerable amount of evidence to be denied. This is why there's scientific research dedicated to NDE.
http://www.scienceda...80910090829.htm
[quote]android654 wrote...
What if people do want to have a copy of themselves existing on a host computer? What is the harm of having people do with their own bodies what they will? How do you have moral superiority to claim that you are the only authority to deem what people should do with their bodies, brain, or personality? What about people with severe paralysis like professor Hawking? Do people like him not deserve the right to have a life in a body? A life they were denied simply by being born in a sick body. If you do have this moral superiority that allows you to deem what is decent for people to do with themselves, how do you prove it?[/quote]
You're not arguing for a copy though, you're arguing for the consciousness to be transferred into an immortal robot but as I was saying, how can the scientists be sure that it's the consciousness and not a copy (thus a personality) that has been transferred? Then them saying you can have your consciousness transferred is a lie and misleading.
The world is overpopulated right now. We've made new organisms in an attempt to combat that issue, but it's not enough. As a result of that we have corporations and governments alike that are in the process of deciding if we can branch out into the ocean, underground, the moon, mars, etc. The addition of certain people living longer would help or hurt the situation as it exists now.
[/quote]
It's not overpopulated. Cities and towns are overpopulated but there's plenty of plains and deserts which - with the right work - can be transformed into places that humans can live in. The governments and corporations you speak of must be filled with those mad scientists then who think biological immortailty will be achieved in 2015.
[quote]android654 wrote...
They stay in their normal bodies. How is this even a concern? Have you been forced to move anywhere? Forced to take up a particular job? Forced to purchase a particular item? If you live in a republic in the industrialized world, you have been more or less free your entire life. The addition of life extension wouldn't change that.
[/quote]
You didn't listen to the argument then. If robots are physical stronger and can performs tasks for longer then they will be the ones who are hired and not normal humans. As robots increase in numbers, more employers will take them on while normal humans discarded and will end up either with horrible jobs or forcing themselves to become robots.
[quote]android654 wrote...
What social problems?
[/quote]
Depends...
Everyone can become a robot = Overpopulation.
Select people can become robots = Unfariness and eventually these people will start being worshiped as idols. World leaders will become immortal and they will regard themselves as being better than everyone else.
Depending on what becomes the majority (human or machine) the minority will be descriminated against.
[quote]android654 wrote...
How myopic. People said the same about the airplane, the telephone, the computer, etc. There are many governments heavily invested in reverse engineering the human brain. The Blue Brain Project[/quote] is a good example with several EU countries investing in it, and many others trying to recreate the science of it on their own. If you look at life extension sciences, the goal is to preserve and keep the human brain functioning outside of the host body. If you have a soul it exists solely in the human brain. Your "soul" isn't in your foot, arm, or chest. The brain would house all you would need to transfer consciousness to another platform or body.
[/quote]
How does the soul exist in the human brain when people who have experienced clinical death - where their brain and heart stops working completely - have experienced an OOBE and travelled to another realm of existence? Many doctors have verified these accounts and NDE's and OOBE's have a considerable amount of evidence to be denied. This is why there's scientific research dedicated to NDE.
http://www.scienceda...80910090829.htm
[quote]android654 wrote...
What if people do want to have a copy of themselves existing on a host computer? What is the harm of having people do with their own bodies what they will? How do you have moral superiority to claim that you are the only authority to deem what people should do with their bodies, brain, or personality? What about people with severe paralysis like professor Hawking? Do people like him not deserve the right to have a life in a body? A life they were denied simply by being born in a sick body. If you do have this moral superiority that allows you to deem what is decent for people to do with themselves, how do you prove it?[/quote]
You're not arguing for a copy though, you're arguing for the consciousness to be transferred into an immortal robot but as I was saying, how can the scientists be sure that it's the consciousness and not a copy (thus a personality) that has been transferred? Then them saying you can have your consciousness transferred is a lie and misleading.
#129
Posté 05 août 2012 - 01:41
android654
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Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...
Guy-b_Guyberton wrote...
What was that movie called where everyones minds were transfered into remotely controlled machine bodies? Cause i think things started going bad pretty fast in that movie.
I think you're thinking of Surrogates
http://files.redux.c...f92dfa74cb3/raw
They weren't in machines. They were interfacting with them. So they were stepping into a computer to live through an android, not becoming a cyborg. It ultimately went bad because a terrorist group of people against the technology began sabotagging the the androids so they would malfunction while people were in them. Like a dream, if you die in your surrogate, you die in real life, which is where Bruce Willis' character comes in. He's a cop set to hunt down the terrorist group to save almost everyone in the city.
Modifié par android654, 05 août 2012 - 02:00 .
#130
Posté 05 août 2012 - 02:00
android654
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Elton John is dead wrote...
It's not overpopulated. Cities and towns are overpopulated but there's plenty of plains and deserts which - with the right work - can be transformed into places that humans can live in. The governments and corporations you speak of must be filled with those mad scientists then who think biological immortailty will be achieved in 2015.
There's this thing called peak oil. In a world where even your food needs oil to be made, we are very over populated. At the moment we spect 445 parts per million of oil per year in order to keep us going. That's with rampant hunger and disease over our 2 most populated continents. In order to keep going like we're going now we would have to at least use 350 parts per million of oil a year. Yet our consumption only increases as time goes on. So without resources for the people that are already here, what would you call it? It'e overpopulation.
No one is claiming that, and your ridiculous for even presuming it.
You didn't listen to the argument then. If robots are physical stronger and can performs tasks for longer then they will be the ones who are hired and not normal humans. As robots increase in numbers, more employers will take them on while normal humans discarded and will end up either with horrible jobs or forcing themselves to become robots.
You're claiming you will be forced to do x. No one has forced you thus far and no one will. Your argument can be made against immigration. Will you argue that people don't have the right to move becuase some people might not have work? We have a word for that, it's called bigotry. People should not have to live their lives in a way designed to care for your sensitivities. You are responsible for youe own insecurities of social issues and not the world around you.
Depends...
Everyone can become a robot = Overpopulation.
Select people can become robots = Unfariness and eventually these people will start being worshiped as idols. World leaders will become immortal and they will regard themselves as being better than everyone else.
Cars become plentiful = chaotic travel conditions.
Only rich people can buy cars = unfairness and eventually these people will start being worshiped as idols.
World leaders travel by fancy cars and they will regard themselves as being better than everyone else.
See how ridiculous that argument it. All "luxury technologies" begin with the assumption that it will be sequestered by the rich, yet everyone gets their hands on it as well. This is not different.
How does the soul exist in the human brain when people who have experienced clinical death - where their brain and heart stops working completely - have experienced an OOBE and travelled to another realm of existence? Many doctors have verified these accounts and NDE's and OOBE's have a considerable amount of evidence to be denied. This is why there's scientific research dedicated to NDE.
http://www.scienceda...80910090829.htm
You're referencing annecdotal magic as valid? Whatever, you've lost the last little bit of credibility you had with citing OBE as a credible evidence for the soul.
#131
Posté 05 août 2012 - 02:47
Eternal Phoenix
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android654 wrote...
There's this thing called peak oil. In a world where even your food needs oil to be made, we are very over populated. At the moment we spect 445 parts per million of oil per year in order to keep us going. That's with rampant hunger and disease over our 2 most populated continents. In order to keep going like we're going now we would have to at least use 350 parts per million of oil a year. Yet our consumption only increases as time goes on. So without resources for the people that are already here, what would you call it? It'e overpopulation.
No one is claiming that, and your ridiculous for even presuming it.
That's not overpopulation. That's food shortage which is another problem but with the prospect of cloning animals that's one problem which can be dealt with realistically and likely sooner than scientists being able to transfer a consciousness into a robot. I don't know why you're talking about the oil found in ground though when talking about food. Food uses seperate oil called cooking oil. If you're eating your food with that black oil then I don't even know how you're still alive...
I guess I'm speaking to a ghost!
I think I'll stick to sunflower oil...
android654 wrote...
You're claiming you will be forced to do x. No one has forced you thus far and no one will. Your argument can be made against immigration. Will you argue that people don't have the right to move becuase some people might not have work? We have a word for that, it's called bigotry. People should not have to live their lives in a way designed to care for your sensitivities. You are responsible for youe own insecurities of social issues and not the world around you.
Actually a lot of immigrants are illegal and them working for low wages because they live in poor conditions is why they get all the jobs. Imagine if America let in all those Mexicans. It would be a flood of Biblical proportions! You're actually ignoring the argument really. If all the robots are getting the jobs and employers are refusing to take on normal humans (due to their organic flaws) then they will have to become robots or the alternative (which is okay to you I guess) is to settle for a job which probably wouldn't provide enough to support their family.
android654 wrote...
Cars become plentiful = chaotic travel conditions.
Only rich people can buy cars = unfairness and eventually these people will start being worshiped as idols.
World leaders travel by fancy cars and they will regard themselves as being better than everyone else.
See how ridiculous that argument it. All "luxury technologies" begin with the assumption that it will be sequestered by the rich, yet everyone gets their hands on it as well. This is not different.
Chaotic travel conditions are different from overpopulation and the problem can easily be erased. You can't start killing humans however but I'd imagine overpopulation could eventually lead to that...
Rich people aren't the ones who can buy cars as there's many cars which poor people can afford. £1,000 cars look pretty good and fancy too and most common people can afford them. No one worships someone is a sport's car so your argument is invalid really.
People would worship a "man" who has lived for 1,000 years however...
android654 wrote...
You're referencing annecdotal magic as valid? Whatever, you've lost the last little bit of credibility you had with citing OBE as a credible evidence for the soul.
You didn't read the article then. I didn't reference anecdotal magic at all. OBE is part of NDE's because the soul travels out of the body. What would you describe as going to another realm as? It's not the body making the journey but the soul. You've lost credibility for refusing to accept the evidence.
It's no good denying the existence of the soul when considerable evidence exists for it which is why doctors and scientists are taking NDE's seriously. The only ones that aren't taken seriously are the ones where the brain is still somewhat functioning because then what the person can be experiencing could be an illusion but when the person is dead and their brain has stopped working, the logical conclusion is that we have a soul and it's not part of the brain.
Please explain how someone whose brain, heart and lungs have stopped working and they are dead (officially) can recount what happened after and even describe things they saw doctors doing?
#132
Posté 05 août 2012 - 02:48
Eternal Phoenix
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Sci-fi. That's all this "transfer your consciousness to a robot/hologram by 2045" is.
#134
Posté 05 août 2012 - 02:59
slimgrin
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The problem of consciousness aside, I would predict cloning to be far more feasible than robotics. The notion of a constructed human that's as sophisticated as the human body seems pure fantasy.
#135
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:00
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
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Personally i dont agree with it.
it would take the jorney out of becoming who you are or will become and mock the fabric of evolution.Death is a good thing, with death brings change,evolution,understanding and a higher level of spiritual conscience.along with the fact that the human soul is impossible to manufactor.
transferring your self to a robot would be damn right impossible.cybernetics would be closer then installing your brain to a harddrive.
it would take the jorney out of becoming who you are or will become and mock the fabric of evolution.Death is a good thing, with death brings change,evolution,understanding and a higher level of spiritual conscience.along with the fact that the human soul is impossible to manufactor.
transferring your self to a robot would be damn right impossible.cybernetics would be closer then installing your brain to a harddrive.
#136
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:25
android654
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[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...
That's not overpopulation. That's food shortage which is another problem but with the prospect of cloning animals that's one problem which can be dealt with realistically and likely sooner than scientists being able to transfer a consciousness into a robot. I don't know why you're talking about the oil found in ground though when talking about food. Food uses seperate oil called cooking oil. If you're eating your food with that black oil then I don't even know how you're still alive...[/quote]
Wow, you really shortsighted.
Everything in the world runs on fossil fuels.
-The plants that slaughter animals runs on fuel
-The trucks to deliver them to meat packing plants
-The plants themselves, the trucks to deliver them to distributors
-The distributors themselves
-The trucks to deliver them to stores
-The stores themselves
-The consumer's cars, the appliances to cook the food.
All of these things use fossil fuel to run. We're running out of fossil fuel. Without it, we can not continue to live like we have.
Are you really so daft as to not understand how commodities get from one place to another, or how a city is run? Here's a minute long explination on how the world works in that way[/quote]
Who said anything about animal cloning? I'm talking about GMOs (genetically modified organisms) its in all food stuffs that are sold prepackaged. Those GMOs are organisms we created in an attempted to curtail the expenditure of fossil fuel to mass produce food.
[quote]Actually a lot of immigrants are illegal and them working for low wages because they live in poor conditions is why they get all the jobs. Imagine if America let in all those Mexicans. It would be a flood of Biblical proportions! You're actually ignoring the argument really. If all the robots are getting the jobs and employers are refusing to take on normal humans (due to their organic flaws) then they will have to become robots or the alternative (which is okay to you I guess) is to settle for a job which probably wouldn't provide enough to support their family.[/quote]
The argument is exactly the same. Yet both groups of people have opportunities to find work. Nowhere has there been a claim that life extension would make people above other people. All this science would do is extend your life, not make you a superman. Learn to read for context.
[quote]Chaotic travel conditions are different from overpopulation and the problem can easily be erased. You can't start killing humans however but I'd imagine overpopulation could eventually lead to that...
Rich people aren't the ones who can buy cars as there's many cars which poor people can afford. £1,000 cars look pretty good and fancy too and most common people can afford them. No one worships someone is a sport's car so your argument is invalid really.[/quote]
Your argument is flawed from the start. There is no branch of technology that is available for private consumption by one class of people over another. Everything that has "been for the rich" was always and became more accesable for the common consumer. There's no difference here.
[quote]You didn't read the article then. I didn't reference anecdotal magic at all. OBE is part of NDE's because the soul travels out of the body. What would you describe as going to another realm as? It's not the body making the journey but the soul. You've lost credibility for refusing to accept the evidence.
It's no good denying the existence of the soul when considerable evidence exists for it which is why doctors and scientists are taking NDE's seriously. The only ones that aren't taken seriously are the ones where the brain is still somewhat functioning because then what the person can be experiencing could be an illusion but when the person is dead and their brain has stopped working, the logical conclusion is that we have a soul and it's not part of the brain.[/quote]
Until you can locate the soul anywhere with in the human organism the
whole thing is annecdotal evidence. Do you know what science does with
annecdotal evidence? Nothing, because it's garbage. a person's claim
about what happened can not be analyzed or questioned and is useless in
medicine and science alike. It's mumbo jumbo and has no purpose.
[quote]Please explain how someone whose brain, heart and lungs have stopped working and they are dead (officially) can recount what happened after and even describe things they saw doctors doing?
[/quote]
It's annecdotal. A story. It has no way of being analyzed because it's one persons word against another. Until we can kill someone on an operating table, then bring them back and question them, it will always be someone's deluded claims over what took place.
That's not overpopulation. That's food shortage which is another problem but with the prospect of cloning animals that's one problem which can be dealt with realistically and likely sooner than scientists being able to transfer a consciousness into a robot. I don't know why you're talking about the oil found in ground though when talking about food. Food uses seperate oil called cooking oil. If you're eating your food with that black oil then I don't even know how you're still alive...[/quote]
Wow, you really shortsighted.
Everything in the world runs on fossil fuels.
-The plants that slaughter animals runs on fuel
-The trucks to deliver them to meat packing plants
-The plants themselves, the trucks to deliver them to distributors
-The distributors themselves
-The trucks to deliver them to stores
-The stores themselves
-The consumer's cars, the appliances to cook the food.
All of these things use fossil fuel to run. We're running out of fossil fuel. Without it, we can not continue to live like we have.
Are you really so daft as to not understand how commodities get from one place to another, or how a city is run? Here's a minute long explination on how the world works in that way[/quote]
Who said anything about animal cloning? I'm talking about GMOs (genetically modified organisms) its in all food stuffs that are sold prepackaged. Those GMOs are organisms we created in an attempted to curtail the expenditure of fossil fuel to mass produce food.
[quote]Actually a lot of immigrants are illegal and them working for low wages because they live in poor conditions is why they get all the jobs. Imagine if America let in all those Mexicans. It would be a flood of Biblical proportions! You're actually ignoring the argument really. If all the robots are getting the jobs and employers are refusing to take on normal humans (due to their organic flaws) then they will have to become robots or the alternative (which is okay to you I guess) is to settle for a job which probably wouldn't provide enough to support their family.[/quote]
The argument is exactly the same. Yet both groups of people have opportunities to find work. Nowhere has there been a claim that life extension would make people above other people. All this science would do is extend your life, not make you a superman. Learn to read for context.
[quote]Chaotic travel conditions are different from overpopulation and the problem can easily be erased. You can't start killing humans however but I'd imagine overpopulation could eventually lead to that...
Rich people aren't the ones who can buy cars as there's many cars which poor people can afford. £1,000 cars look pretty good and fancy too and most common people can afford them. No one worships someone is a sport's car so your argument is invalid really.[/quote]
Your argument is flawed from the start. There is no branch of technology that is available for private consumption by one class of people over another. Everything that has "been for the rich" was always and became more accesable for the common consumer. There's no difference here.
[quote]You didn't read the article then. I didn't reference anecdotal magic at all. OBE is part of NDE's because the soul travels out of the body. What would you describe as going to another realm as? It's not the body making the journey but the soul. You've lost credibility for refusing to accept the evidence.
It's no good denying the existence of the soul when considerable evidence exists for it which is why doctors and scientists are taking NDE's seriously. The only ones that aren't taken seriously are the ones where the brain is still somewhat functioning because then what the person can be experiencing could be an illusion but when the person is dead and their brain has stopped working, the logical conclusion is that we have a soul and it's not part of the brain.[/quote]
Until you can locate the soul anywhere with in the human organism the
whole thing is annecdotal evidence. Do you know what science does with
annecdotal evidence? Nothing, because it's garbage. a person's claim
about what happened can not be analyzed or questioned and is useless in
medicine and science alike. It's mumbo jumbo and has no purpose.
[quote]Please explain how someone whose brain, heart and lungs have stopped working and they are dead (officially) can recount what happened after and even describe things they saw doctors doing?
[/quote]
It's annecdotal. A story. It has no way of being analyzed because it's one persons word against another. Until we can kill someone on an operating table, then bring them back and question them, it will always be someone's deluded claims over what took place.
Modifié par android654, 05 août 2012 - 06:17 .
#137
Guest_Rubios_*
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:33
Guest_Rubios_*
Guest_Rubios_*
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Elton John is dead wrote...
Actually a lot of immigrants are illegal and them working for low wages because they live in poor conditions is why they get all the jobs. Imagine if America let in all those Mexicans. It would be a flood of Biblical proportions! You're actually ignoring the argument really. If all the robots are getting the jobs and employers are refusing to take on normal humans (due to their organic flaws) then they will have to become robots or the alternative (which is okay to you I guess) is to settle for a job which probably wouldn't provide enough to support their family.
Most people around the world already live in that conditions, just because you and I have three meals a day, an Internet connection and money to spare on videogames doesn't mean most humans do.
We already belong to that elite you fear, should we just stop our societies to care about the human race as a whole or keep moving forward? Do the ones that decide to move forward owe something to the ones who don't?
Very interesting read about the subject: Beggars in Spain
Modifié par Rubios, 05 août 2012 - 03:34 .
#138
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:35
mousestalker
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Y'all are missing some important ideas.
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that consciousness transfer becomes possible at some point. Everyone is assuming that our new droid bodies will be flawless. Reality says otherwise. Sure some people will be able to afford 'bodies by Bentley' but they will be few and far between. The majority will have 'reasonably priced' bot bodies, similar to a Ford Fiesta or Peugeot 207. An awful lot of elderly people will be forced to settle for something by Tata.
Also, most folks are comfortable with their own bodies, so most people will not switch over until things really start to fall apart. And by fall apart, I mean fail not only physically but mentally.
Y'all all see a future populated by shining, gleaming flawless bots who all move with quiet efficiency. The more likely reality is that the future will be bumper cars.
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that consciousness transfer becomes possible at some point. Everyone is assuming that our new droid bodies will be flawless. Reality says otherwise. Sure some people will be able to afford 'bodies by Bentley' but they will be few and far between. The majority will have 'reasonably priced' bot bodies, similar to a Ford Fiesta or Peugeot 207. An awful lot of elderly people will be forced to settle for something by Tata.
Also, most folks are comfortable with their own bodies, so most people will not switch over until things really start to fall apart. And by fall apart, I mean fail not only physically but mentally.
Y'all all see a future populated by shining, gleaming flawless bots who all move with quiet efficiency. The more likely reality is that the future will be bumper cars.
#139
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:37
TJPags
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Regarding the "conciousness" argument:
If we CAN essentially 'copy' a mind, we would then have 2 equal, exact copies of the same mind, yes? Each would share the same memories, experiences, skills, etc., yes?
From that point, copy A and copy B would experience different things, and would then have different memories, yes? Assuming that the copy can actually do this, of course. So the Copy B is its own conciousness, no?
Now, eliminate copy A - that's you, in your physical body, which is about to die, which is why you're being transferred anyway. So copy A is gone, copy B goes into the machine. At this point, it IS you. It have your memories, your knowledge, your skills, your likes, dislikes, etc. It IS you.
From that point, it continues its life, has new experiences, learns new things, makes new memories, etc. If this is true, then how does it not remain you?
If we CAN essentially 'copy' a mind, we would then have 2 equal, exact copies of the same mind, yes? Each would share the same memories, experiences, skills, etc., yes?
From that point, copy A and copy B would experience different things, and would then have different memories, yes? Assuming that the copy can actually do this, of course. So the Copy B is its own conciousness, no?
Now, eliminate copy A - that's you, in your physical body, which is about to die, which is why you're being transferred anyway. So copy A is gone, copy B goes into the machine. At this point, it IS you. It have your memories, your knowledge, your skills, your likes, dislikes, etc. It IS you.
From that point, it continues its life, has new experiences, learns new things, makes new memories, etc. If this is true, then how does it not remain you?
#140
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:43
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
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@TJPags
its not you.
the organic body carrys memories and experiences which you are leaving behind.as you were attached to those and no matter how old you get or bad your physical body becomes.it will still remember such actions and or events.
moving your mind to a new body will inert create a new you that is different and will eventually become completely new.anything you were or are will get left behind.you might have "fable" memories of a person but you will be different.that could be for the better depending on the person but honestly i see that as a bad thing.
its not you.
the organic body carrys memories and experiences which you are leaving behind.as you were attached to those and no matter how old you get or bad your physical body becomes.it will still remember such actions and or events.
moving your mind to a new body will inert create a new you that is different and will eventually become completely new.anything you were or are will get left behind.you might have "fable" memories of a person but you will be different.that could be for the better depending on the person but honestly i see that as a bad thing.
#141
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:47
TJPags
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Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...
@TJPags
its not you.
the organic body carrys memories and experiences which you are leaving behind.as you were attached to those and no matter how old you get or bad your physical body becomes.it will still remember such actions and or events.
moving your mind to a new body will inert create a new you that is different and will eventually become completely new.anything you were or are will get left behind.you might have "fable" memories of a person but you will be different.that could be for the better depending on the person but honestly i see that as a bad thing.
Wait, the body carries memories? Sure, I understand 'muscle memory', i.e. the ability to repeat an action that you've practiced repeatedly, but aren't memories - which is all experience is, really - stored in the mind? If so, when you create that copy, it is, at that moment, identical.
#142
Guest_Rubios_*
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:48
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You are digging too far in that direction, it is all just speculation for now.
If we don't assume it is possible until proven wrong there is nothing to discuss
If we don't assume it is possible until proven wrong there is nothing to discuss
Modifié par Rubios, 05 août 2012 - 03:48 .
#143
Posté 05 août 2012 - 03:51
android654
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mousestalker wrote...
Y'all are missing some important ideas.
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that consciousness transfer becomes possible at some point. Everyone is assuming that our new droid bodies will be flawless. Reality says otherwise. Sure some people will be able to afford 'bodies by Bentley' but they will be few and far between. The majority will have 'reasonably priced' bot bodies, similar to a Ford Fiesta or Peugeot 207. An awful lot of elderly people will be forced to settle for something by Tata.
Also, most folks are comfortable with their own bodies, so most people will not switch over until things really start to fall apart. And by fall apart, I mean fail not only physically but mentally.
Y'all all see a future populated by shining, gleaming flawless bots who all move with quiet efficiency. The more likely reality is that the future will be bumper cars.
I'm not claiming it will be perfect. I'm claiming that in order to reach a level where it can be considered perfected, we have to start somewhere. Sure a Bently is nicer than a civic, but a civic built 10 years ago is such a well built machine that proper use and maintenance can keep it running like new for decades. The same will be true for cybernetics.
Like I said before
we started with this
Now we have this
(yes it has a microprocessor that helps to judge pressure and movement)
And soon we'll have this
(before you ask, these are computerized, connect via bluetooth. It's still in the test phase but would be availble for circulation soon)
#144
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
Posté 05 août 2012 - 04:08
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
Guest_Tigerblood and MilkShakes_*
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TJPags wrote...
Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...
@TJPags
its not you.
the organic body carrys memories and experiences which you are leaving behind.as you were attached to those and no matter how old you get or bad your physical body becomes.it will still remember such actions and or events.
moving your mind to a new body will inert create a new you that is different and will eventually become completely new.anything you were or are will get left behind.you might have "fable" memories of a person but you will be different.that could be for the better depending on the person but honestly i see that as a bad thing.
Wait, the body carries memories? Sure, I understand 'muscle memory', i.e. the ability to repeat an action that you've practiced repeatedly, but aren't memories - which is all experience is, really - stored in the mind? If so, when you create that copy, it is, at that moment, identical.
ya the body can carry memory.you have nuero memory.talk to patiences that get an organ doninated to them.they have memories or tratis that carried over from the person who they got the organ from
#145
Guest_Rubios_*
Posté 05 août 2012 - 04:19
Guest_Rubios_*
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Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...
TJPags wrote...
Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...
@TJPags
its not you.
the organic body carrys memories and experiences which you are leaving behind.as you were attached to those and no matter how old you get or bad your physical body becomes.it will still remember such actions and or events.
moving your mind to a new body will inert create a new you that is different and will eventually become completely new.anything you were or are will get left behind.you might have "fable" memories of a person but you will be different.that could be for the better depending on the person but honestly i see that as a bad thing.
Wait, the body carries memories? Sure, I understand 'muscle memory', i.e. the ability to repeat an action that you've practiced repeatedly, but aren't memories - which is all experience is, really - stored in the mind? If so, when you create that copy, it is, at that moment, identical.
ya the body can carry memory.you have nuero memory.talk to patiences that get an organ doninated to them.they have memories or tratis that carried over from the person who they got the organ from
Papers on that? Never heard of it but sounds interesting...
#146
Posté 05 août 2012 - 04:25
TJPags
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Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...
TJPags wrote...
Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...
@TJPags
its not you.
the organic body carrys memories and experiences which you are leaving behind.as you were attached to those and no matter how old you get or bad your physical body becomes.it will still remember such actions and or events.
moving your mind to a new body will inert create a new you that is different and will eventually become completely new.anything you were or are will get left behind.you might have "fable" memories of a person but you will be different.that could be for the better depending on the person but honestly i see that as a bad thing.
Wait, the body carries memories? Sure, I understand 'muscle memory', i.e. the ability to repeat an action that you've practiced repeatedly, but aren't memories - which is all experience is, really - stored in the mind? If so, when you create that copy, it is, at that moment, identical.
ya the body can carry memory.you have nuero memory.talk to patiences that get an organ doninated to them.they have memories or tratis that carried over from the person who they got the organ from
I've heard of that, but like Rubios, I'd like to see some actual scientific research on the subject. I'm of the opinion that stories like this are - like those of people with near death experiences who 'saw the light' - psychological, and not actually physical.
#147
Posté 05 août 2012 - 04:35
eroeru
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TJPags wrote...
Regarding the "conciousness" argument:
If we CAN essentially 'copy' a mind, we would then have 2 equal, exact copies of the same mind, yes? Each would share the same memories, experiences, skills, etc., yes?
From that point, copy A and copy B would experience different things, and would then have different memories, yes? Assuming that the copy can actually do this, of course. So the Copy B is its own conciousness, no?
Now, eliminate copy A - that's you, in your physical body, which is about to die, which is why you're being transferred anyway. So copy A is gone, copy B goes into the machine. At this point, it IS you. It have your memories, your knowledge, your skills, your likes, dislikes, etc. It IS you.
From that point, it continues its life, has new experiences, learns new things, makes new memories, etc. If this is true, then how does it not remain you?
Interesting to see this argument. It is usually applied to the merit of the very opposing objective.
I.e. at the point where "your consciousness" is divided, the situation promptly, momentarily, and without a single moment with you being identical (you'll be at separate points in time and space at the very least) becomes in your opinion such that there's two You's. That is contradictory to the premise that consciousness is subjective.
Unless you want to doubt that premis. Which seems quite quirky.
Modifié par eroeru, 05 août 2012 - 04:36 .
#148
Posté 05 août 2012 - 04:44
Blacklash93
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The funny thing about near-death experiences is that many who have them weren't dead or dying in the first place. They thought they were, however. Most also highly resemble the sensations and perceptions of the euphoria induced by even mild oxygen depravation in the brain, including the light tunnel. Thus these could easily be explained as a simple effect of trauma and stressed perceptions.
Out of body experiences in subjects with at least noticable neurolgical activity are attributed to irregularities in the temporal lobe, which conicidentally is responsible for spacial awareness. Such a perception can be somewhat replicated by stimulating the lobe in certain ways, providing further evidence. I do not know about neurologically dead individuals, but it is possible there is very trace amounts of neurological activity that standard EEGs cannot sense. Such matters raise many questions of specific things that doctors and onlookers aren't looking for when someone has entered cardiact arrest. They are either giving a moment of silence and will proceed to remove them or are desperately trying to revive them. Either way there is a lot of emotion running which makes decent observation a lot to ask for.
But most people who find themselves under such circumstances do not recall experiencing such things. Maybe most people don't have souls or they aren't special enough? Anyone's guess. But at the end of the day 'proof' is a very strong word in anything in these times. As we go into deeper, smaller, and more complex things factors become increasingly more easy to misinterpret or just outright miss. There's still a lot we do not understand about the brain and human body even after centruies of study and experiements.
Out of body experiences in subjects with at least noticable neurolgical activity are attributed to irregularities in the temporal lobe, which conicidentally is responsible for spacial awareness. Such a perception can be somewhat replicated by stimulating the lobe in certain ways, providing further evidence. I do not know about neurologically dead individuals, but it is possible there is very trace amounts of neurological activity that standard EEGs cannot sense. Such matters raise many questions of specific things that doctors and onlookers aren't looking for when someone has entered cardiact arrest. They are either giving a moment of silence and will proceed to remove them or are desperately trying to revive them. Either way there is a lot of emotion running which makes decent observation a lot to ask for.
But most people who find themselves under such circumstances do not recall experiencing such things. Maybe most people don't have souls or they aren't special enough? Anyone's guess. But at the end of the day 'proof' is a very strong word in anything in these times. As we go into deeper, smaller, and more complex things factors become increasingly more easy to misinterpret or just outright miss. There's still a lot we do not understand about the brain and human body even after centruies of study and experiements.
Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 août 2012 - 07:24 .
#149
Posté 05 août 2012 - 05:07
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eroeru wrote...
TJPags wrote...
Regarding the "conciousness" argument:
If we CAN essentially 'copy' a mind, we would then have 2 equal, exact copies of the same mind, yes? Each would share the same memories, experiences, skills, etc., yes?
From that point, copy A and copy B would experience different things, and would then have different memories, yes? Assuming that the copy can actually do this, of course. So the Copy B is its own conciousness, no?
Now, eliminate copy A - that's you, in your physical body, which is about to die, which is why you're being transferred anyway. So copy A is gone, copy B goes into the machine. At this point, it IS you. It have your memories, your knowledge, your skills, your likes, dislikes, etc. It IS you.
From that point, it continues its life, has new experiences, learns new things, makes new memories, etc. If this is true, then how does it not remain you?
Interesting to see this argument. It is usually applied to the merit of the very opposing objective.
I.e. at the point where "your consciousness" is divided, the situation promptly, momentarily, and without a single moment with you being identical (you'll be at separate points in time and space at the very least) becomes in your opinion such that there's two You's. That is contradictory to the premise that consciousness is subjective.
Unless you want to doubt that premis. Which seems quite quirky.
Not sure I understand you . . . when you make a copy, for a moment, they ARE identical, aren't they? i.e., when you back up your hard drive or take an image of it, aren't they identical at that moment?
And is conciousness subjective? Or is it objective? I'm not pshycologically oriented, so have no background, but I'd assume that conciousness is objective . . it is, or it isnt, concious. Impression, to me, is subjective . . .but, for instance, I took a class in music - that's objective, I did or didn't. Whether I liked it, remembered what I learned, etc. - those things are subjective.
Again, I may be misunderstanding you. Either way, I'm curious and would appreciate if you could explain.
#150
Posté 05 août 2012 - 05:09
Rockworm503
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LOL bringing souls into this. I keep thinking of Angel the vampire with a soul. I'm starting to like Android. He's totally pwning this thread.
