193 réponses à ce sujet

[android654]

Rockworm503 wrote...
I keep thinking of Angel the vampire with a soul.

I wouldn't mess with him

[Rockworm503]

android654 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...
I keep thinking of Angel the vampire with a soul.

I wouldn't mess with him

haha how they kept a straight face while shooting that episode is beyond me.

[tklivory]

android654 wrote...

I wouldn't mess with him

See? Putting your consciousness in another body *can* work! 

Do not doubt the power of puppets!

[TEWR]

I'll be going all Ghost in the Shell with this ****.

It is a time when, even if nets were to guide all consciousness that had been converted to photons and electrons toward coalescing, standalone individuals have not yet been converted into data to the extent that they can form unique components of a larger complex

[tklivory]

Now, for serious thoughts in another post, because serious business cannot compete with Angel and Mr. Flibble:

First: the guy in the article of the actual originator of this thread (i.e., the company who claimes to transfer the consciousness to a robot) seems like a bonafide snakeoil salesmen.  Most of the people rich enough to pay him to perform this research will be dead or poor candidates for such a procedure *if* he does it, and thus will be putting their money in not for themselves, but because they want this technology to be available to others like them.

Notice, the letter promoting his company is addressed to 'Honorable Members of the Forbes Billionaire List'.  Not to 'humanity', or 'Earth' or what have you.  He knows who will be the first to fund (and benefit) from this kind of research, and this makes me inherently distrust the project.  If it *does* succeed (a *huge* if), it would only be for those rich enough to afford it - like pretty much anything.  After all, I'd like my own private jet, but... ain't gonna happen on my budget.  Technology is invariably a progress of 'the few to the many', and so it will be in this case, with some poor guinea pigs from the lower classes brought in or the scientists testing upon themselves first.  This project is for the wealthy, and likely he targets that audience because the governments of today simply can't fund that kind of project - we're talking trillions of dollars - *if* it were to actually come to fruition.

Plus this project is for the express purpose of 'immortality', which conveys the snakeoil salesmen mantra: promise what you can't deliver, take the money and then run.

So discussion of the actual project put aside for now, some (random) thoughts on the actual process:

1) Transferring the consciousness en toto will not be done by 2045.  We can't help a person who takes a hard blow to the head and develops amnesia.  We can't come close to repairing in full the brain damage of a stroke.  We can't even solve problems such as Broca's aphasia or other speech impediment issues based entirely on problems with the physical aspects of the brain.  We still can't even declare with exactitude what all those wrinkles are for! (we're better than we used to be, but not there yet).

2) The mind in it's current state relies upon the physical body as a whole: phantom pain is real because of the connection between the brain and the nerves (as one example).  Until we know how to transfer the entirety of an awareness, we should proceed with caution.  After all, it's great to speak of 'a body without pain' but the pain exists for a reason, and the few people who can't feel it because of nerve or brain damage usually end up with very short lives.  Replacing the body and moving the mind should be more than just a Philosopher's Stone: it should be a whole totality of scientific method and thought.  We are in the baby steps of that consideration at the current time, and the concept of moving the mind in this century is not, to me, feasible. despite the *seeming* progress of technology.  

3) Technological progress != readiness to accept the technology.  It is easy to improve a microchip in a year, and given limitless funding, we could all have flying cars right now.  BUT that doesn't mean I would trust ANYONE (except me of course) to actually own and drive one.  I have enough trouble with 2D traffic - 3D traffic would be a nightmare of epic proportions without decades of infrastructure changes, training development and dispensation, and a complete awareness of traffic conditions in a way we currently don't have.  However, the biggest hold-back will still be the human element, and that will ring true for any attempts to transfer consciousness.  Look how long it took for us to acknowledge that people of African descent in America were 'equal' according to the law, fer Maker's sake.  (And, they're still not *considered* equal in many parts of the country).  You can't legislate behavior, and you can't legislate acceptance of technology.  We have people wandering the world with HUDs in their eyes, lungs made in a lab, and running in the Olympics with two man-made feet, and still - *STILL* - the debate rages about circumcision and tattoos (nature vs imposing on it)  Culture and society have great staying power in these debates, after all.

4) Terran vs space: it is absolutely essential that we accept vast change of the body before going into space.  Our body is designed/evolved/what have you for the conditions on Earth, and, for that matter, for conditions on this planet in a certain location.  People living in high altitude have different lungs (subtly) than people living in the islands at the equator.  We have to take extreme caution when exploring the Marianas trench with humans because of the inimical nature of that environment to our form.  There's all kinds of research that shows that people's reaction to certain type of food are genetically based to a degree.  And yet, we live in a world that is limited in resources.  This planet will not last forever (especially with our current usage of it).  Granted the length of finite resources depends on how we use these resources, but if we're talking not mere centuries or millenia, but lengths of time beyond that... yes, the earth will fail, and we better damn well have a way for us to survive freely in space and atmospheres we aren't actually compatible with.  Science is excited by the discovery of 'Earth-like' planets, but it would make more sense to figure out how to acclimate to those that are closer than to try to figure out how to get to a planet that "might" allow us to physically remain the same.

Aaaaand... that's enough for now, I think. 

Modifié par tklivory, 05 août 2012 - 07:40 .

[TheMufflon]

eroeru wrote...

The other problem is logic. We cannot say human reasoning is built on logic

But brains are logical. The behaviour of a neuron is just as predictable and deterministic as the behaviour of a computer. Human reasoning is, quite literally, built on logic. That we perceive the effect as illogical is simply because we do not fully understand the cause, that our internal model for the phenomenon is to simple and therefore fails to accurately predict the result. Our mind is an epiphenomenon arising from the interaction of neurons, but there is no reason the same type of epiphenomenon could be produced from other types of interaction.

I personally believe it is strictly otherwise, involving some undeterministic quantum stuff or whatnot. AI is built on logic.

Eugh. I sincerely wish people would stop doing this. And by "this" I mean the whole "I don't know quantum mechanics from shinola, but I'm going to pretend that it supports my opinion and hope that no one else knows anything about it either" fallacy. While few know much about it, and no one can really claim to know how to physically interpret it, we do know what it's not: an automatic "I win"-button for arguments. So please stop pushing it.

Oh, and a computer would be just as affected by the uncertainty principle as a brain.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 05 août 2012 - 08:59 .

[Clover Rider]

android654 wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...
I keep thinking of Angel the vampire with a soul.

I wouldn't mess with him

That was such a great episode.

[android654]

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

The funny thing is all the "Anti-"People don't have a choice in the matter, you can either join us or die. 

Because if we survive long enough eventually everything becomes the "common" and if your worried about facist people becoming immortal, well I'm pretty sure you can still kill them. 

They don't have to die of Old age.

Those kinds of arguments make me think what it must have been like for our primitive ancestors to learn there were other continents. Imagine, you thought the world stretch only a few hundred kilometers in every direction from where you stood, then you learned there are land masses separated by oceans filled with life we still are exploring to this day. People thought we'd never fly, never go to space, never touch the ocean floor. We've done all those and the same mindless limitations are applied by naysayers here.

It's going to happen, whether it's for medical or recreational purposes. People are cyborgs, right now.

A chip

Such as this acts as a universal id card, allowing people to access medical records, bank accounts, personal safes, businesses, even in certain countries to id levels of intelegence security clearance. Either way, it'll be as commonplace as the computer, cellphone or television set.

The funny thing about medicine, is it's primary function is to essentially extend the life of the patient. If death was so welcoming, so naturally accepted, so "good," the notions of doctors and medicine would be outright rejcted. When in reality their existence, along with sanitation, is chiefly responsible for us not falling ove at the age of 50.

[android654]

Riiiiiight.

The only recorded "memories" from organ transplants are phantom sensations. In other words, the brain remembers having a limb somewhere that did X most of the time. when attaching a limb which isn't their own causes the brain to try and cope with the addition of the new limb in place of the old one. No one is recognizing strangers on the street finding lost car keys or being recognized by pets because of transplants.

[TheMufflon]

android654 wrote...

Riiiiiight.

The only recorded "memories" from organ transplants are phantom sensations. In other words, the brain remembers having a limb somewhere that did X most of the time. when attaching a limb which isn't their own causes the brain to try and cope with the addition of the new limb in place of the old one. No one is recognizing strangers on the street finding lost car keys or being recognized by pets because of transplants.

What!?! I know for a fact that a guy who got hand transplants (that's totally a thing!) from an executed criminal was attacked by those very same hands!

[android654]

TheMufflon wrote...

android654 wrote...

Riiiiiight.

The only recorded "memories" from organ transplants are phantom sensations. In other words, the brain remembers having a limb somewhere that did X most of the time. when attaching a limb which isn't their own causes the brain to try and cope with the addition of the new limb in place of the old one. No one is recognizing strangers on the street finding lost car keys or being recognized by pets because of transplants.

What!?! I know for a fact that a guy who got hand transplants (that's totally a thing!) from an executed criminal was attacked by those very same hands!

I know a guy who got feet implants from a fetish model. His story ended quite differently...

[The Hierophant]

android654 wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

android654 wrote...

Riiiiiight.

The only recorded "memories" from organ transplants are phantom sensations. In other words, the brain remembers having a limb somewhere that did X most of the time. when attaching a limb which isn't their own causes the brain to try and cope with the addition of the new limb in place of the old one. No one is recognizing strangers on the street finding lost car keys or being recognized by pets because of transplants.

What!?! I know for a fact that a guy who got hand transplants (that's totally a thing!) from an executed criminal was attacked by those very same hands!

I know a guy who got feet implants from a fetish model. His story ended quite differently...

Continue?

[tklivory]

But-but... does that mean all this time I've spent in Renaissance Italy and Constantinople *wasn't real?*??? *pouts*

[android654]

Of course it doesn't! That would mean Ghost Hunters and UFO Hunters are based entirely around a select group of people's imagination about something they can't prove exists to begin with. IT's not like tangible things that can be weighed by empiricism.

[Eternal Phoenix]

android654 wrote...

Everything in the world runs on fossil fuels.
-The plants that slaughter animals runs on fuel
-The trucks to deliver them to meat packing plants
-The plants themselves, the trucks to deliver them to distributors
-The distributors themselves
-The trucks to deliver them to stores
-The stores themselves
-The consumer's cars, the appliances to cook the food.

All of these things use fossil fuel to run. We're running out of fossil fuel. Without it, we can not continue to live like we have.

But this has nothing to do with overpopulation or the end of humanity and it certainly has nothing to do with transferring the consciousness of a human into a robot. Humanity will survive without fossil fuel anyway. You've created a straw-man argument. Well done. I applause you because you did it pretty well.

 

android654 wrote... 
The argument is exactly the same. Yet both groups of people have opportunities to find work. Nowhere has there been a claim that life extension would make people above other people. All this science would do is extend your life, not make you a superman. Learn to read for context.

No your changing the argument. So long as the robot exists then so will the consciousness theoretically. It's not life extension. It's basically immortality so long as the robot lasts and what with technology constantly progressing I can imagine these robots getting the latest updates to ensure that they last "forever."  I think you've missed the entire point.

android654 wrote...  

Your argument is flawed from the start. There is no branch of technology that is available for private consumption by one class of people over another. Everything that has "been for the rich" was always and became more accesable for the common consumer. There's no difference here.

So the common man can access space? 

android654 wrote...  
Until you can locate the soul anywhere with in the human organism the
whole thing is annecdotal evidence. Do you know what science does with
annecdotal evidence? Nothing, because it's garbage. a person's claim
about what happened can not be analyzed or questioned and is useless in
medicine and science alike. It's mumbo jumbo and has no purpose.

I'm not making a scientific argument. I'm making an argument based on observations. Mathematics, logic, common sense and simple observation (which is also what science is about, observational evidence) contribute to proving or arguing for something. If you want to ignore the records of millons of people since the ancient times who have all described the afterlife (known as The Void by the NDE community) in a similar account then that's showing your ignorance.

I suppose all these people since the ancient times have been involved in a world-wide conspiracy then because nothing else would explain why people who have experienced an NDE from all cultures, countries and time-frames all report a similar experience. Quite frankly, I think it would be ludicrous to believe it was a world-wide conspiracy. Logic and simple plain common sense says that these people all had a similar experience of dying and really did go another realm/dimension.

The alternative is that the ancient Greeks started the conspriacy which has lasted to the modern day with people of all cultures, countries, religions and beliefs systems involved in continuing their conspriacy for no apparent reason.

I know which argument I'm going with and it's no the conspriacy theory.

"It all began with Plato. He created a fake account of a soldier's NDE and presented it to Greece as truth. From then on he encouraged his students to fake their own deaths and then seemingly return from the dead telling everyone of what they had experienced wherein their accounts would be similar to each other's. Eventually his students took these practices to other countries where they convinced others to perform the same deed. Centuries passed and the practice became wide-spread in every culture, religion and country where all NDE's and so-called journeys to the afterlife were all described similarly with each account describing "The Void" with a similar description to all other accounts. Plato was furiously ****** at his working in his grave and he was happy." -- NDE is a government conspriacy + The Queen of England is a homosexual lizard club. Oh and almost forgot, Obama is of the second human race seeking revenge against the first human race club of extraordinary people. Oh and Obama is also a gay Muslim Hindu atheist woman who went to the moon once and returned because aliens were up there which is the real reason why NASA faked the moon landings. P.S the club is actually full of aliens and the club seeks to control the world and they have created all the conspriacies of the world hence why they know so much. We must fight ourselves club.

If you believe in that fair enough but that's far-fetched and unlike my argument doesn't actually have any evidence.

android654 wrote...  
It's annecdotal. A story. It has no way of being analyzed because it's one persons word against another. Until we can kill someone on an operating table, then bring them back and question them, it will always be someone's deluded claims over what took place.

Explain that to the doctors then who have actually seen these things first hand. Why do you think some skeptic scientists have come forth trying to explain these these events? Others are actively dedicating research to studying NDE's and OOBE's. If it was annecdotal then scientists wouldn't bother with it.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 06 août 2012 - 09:25 .

[RedArmyShogun]

Elton John is dead wrote...


But this has nothing to do with overpopulation or the end of humanity and it certainly has nothing to do with transferring the consciousness of a human into a robot. Humanity will survive without fossil fuel anyway. You've created a straw-man argument. Well done. I applause you because you did it pretty well.

 

Everything he posts is that way. And I still don't see how he hasn't been banned when he's said openly he mainly keeps this crap going as "its the net." Which is funny as some of us get banned for picture trolling. But allas the BSN always has allowed the freaks of this world to spout off whatever they wish to say, and even in more than a few games bowed down to them.

[android654]

Elton John is dead wrote...
But this has nothing to do with overpopulation or the end of humanity and it certainly has nothing to do with transferring the consciousness of a human into a robot. Humanity will survive without fossil fuel anyway. You've created a straw-man argument. Well done. I applause you because you did it pretty well.

So you are daft?

There are X number of resouces for X amount of people. If the amount of people exceeds the amount of resources available, then the population is more than we can accomadate. That's overpopulation.

No your changing the argument. So long as the robot exists then so will the consciousness theoretically. It's not life extension. It's basically immortality so long as the robot lasts and what with technology constantly progressing I can imagine these robots getting the latest updates to ensure that they last "forever."  I think you've missed the entire point.

No, the science to extend human life is called Life Extension sciences. The goal is to indefinitely extend the human life span. This is being researched in cybernetics, gene therapy, and has been studied since society began through homeopathy. The quest for eternal life is as old as the conscious mind itself.

So the common man can access space?

the rich can not access space with out clearance and cooperation from their governments. Those stories you hear about rich people giving Richard Branson checks to go space are misleading. They are investing in the funding of a business that may or may not build systems with the capability to eneter space. Instead of dividends the investors will recieve seats on the commercial madien voyage. Once businesses adapt that, they will be open to the public. Just like you can buy a plane ticket.

I'm not making a scientific argument. I'm making an argument based on observations. Mathematics, logic, common sense and simple observation (which is also what science is about, observational evidence) contribute to proving or arguing for something. If you want to ignore the records of millons of people since the ancient times who have all described the afterlife (known as The Void by the NDE community) in a similar account then that's showing your ignorance.
I suppose all these people since the ancient times have been involved in a world-wide conspiracy then because nothing else would explain why people who have experienced an NDE from all cultures, countries and time-frames all report a similar experience. Quite frankly, I think it would be ludicrous to believe it was a world-wide conspiracy. Logic and simple plain common sense says that these people all had a similar experience of dying and really did go another realm/dimension.

The alternative is that the ancient Greeks started the conspriacy which has lasted to the modern day with people of all cultures, countries, religions and beliefs systems involved in continuing their conspriacy for no apparent reason.

I know which argument I'm going with and it's no the conspriacy theory.

"It all began with Plato. He created a fake account of a soldier's NDE and presented it to Greece as truth. From then on he encouraged his students to fake their own deaths and then seemingly return from the dead telling everyone of what they had experienced wherein their accounts would be similar to each other's. Eventually his students took these practices to other countries where they convinced others to perform the same deed. Centuries passed and the practice became wide-spread in every culture, religion and country where all NDE's and so-called journeys to the afterlife were all described similarly with each account describing "The Void" with a similar description to all other accounts. Plato was furiously ****** at his working in his grave and he was happy." -- NDE is a government conspriacy + The Queen of England is a homosexual lizard club. Oh and almost forgot, Obama is of the second human race seeking revenge against the first human race club of extraordinary people. Oh and Obama is also a gay Muslim Hindu atheist woman who went to the moon once and returned because aliens were up there which is the real reason why NASA faked the moon landings. P.S the club is actually full of aliens and the club seeks to control the world and they have created all the conspriacies of the world hence why they know so much. We must fight ourselves club.

If you believe in that fair enough but that's far-fetched and unlike my argument doesn't actually have any evidence.

Observations are used to gather evicence. Evidence that needs to be
weighed against other evidence. Has there been controlled euthanisizng
of patients and ressusitation to judge nde? No? Then it is entirely
annecdotal and proves more about faulty equipment and the systems in
place to declare death than it does about the after-life.

The accounts of ancient civilizations isn't proof of anything. We've prayed to the sun, killed the defective at birth, and had a whole host of bizzare rituals that serve no purpose. What you are is man in search of evidence for a theory that is supported only by other people who believe in that theory. IF what you claim is true, then there's much more evidence for active encounters and communications with extraterrestrials. Guess what, they're both bulls**t.

Explain that to the doctors then who have actually seen these things first hand. Why do you think some skeptic scientists have come forth trying to explain these these events? Others are actively dedicating research to studying NDE's and OOBE's. If it was annecdotal then scientists wouldn't bother with it.

You also have legitamte researchers from the FBI, DIA, and universities around the world hunting for ghosts, paranormal humans, cryptozoological animals, demons, and aliens. That does not make their claims legitamate. It makes them grown men with more imagination than sense.

Step your game up junior. If you're trying to make a claim for the existnece of a soul as a reason for someone to not cryogenically freeze themselves and be transplanted into a machine in the future, have some evidence to support it. And none of this eye witness and syfy channel stories crap. Something tangible that can be analyzed and weighed against other facts and explinations.

And before you start, the price for cryogenic freezing begins at about 30 dollars a month. A guy from McDonalds on minimum wage can  save enough to keep him on ice for decades.

[Weak Sauce Hype]

Dammit, I'll probably have killed myself by then. Ugh. fml

[TheMufflon]

Elton John is dead wrote...

So the common man can access space?

Yes. I access space all the time with my GPS.

I suppose all these people since the ancient times have been involved in a world-wide conspiracy then because nothing else would explain why people who have experienced an NDE from all cultures, countries and time-frames all report a similar experience.

No. You cannot explain it any other way. That does not mean it is the correct, logical, or true explanation. What you are positing is an argument from ignorance and a false dilemma.

Nor does the argument that because people from different times and cultures have (purportedly) experienced the same phenomenon give any indication of interacting with other "realms/dimensions". The simple fact is that biologically speaking all humans are nearly identical; you might as well claim that since cancer has been experienced by people from all times and cultures it comes from the fourth dimension.

"It all began with Plato. He created a fake account of a soldier's NDE and presented it to Greece as truth. From then on he encouraged his students to fake their own deaths and then seemingly return from the dead telling everyone of what they had experienced wherein their accounts would be similar to each other's. Eventually his students took these practices to other countries where they convinced others to perform the same deed. Centuries passed and the practice became wide-spread in every culture, religion and country where all NDE's and so-called journeys to the afterlife were all described similarly with each account describing "The Void" with a similar description to all other accounts. Plato was furiously ****** at his working in his grave and he was happy." -- NDE is a government conspriacy + The Queen of England is a homosexual lizard club. Oh and almost forgot, Obama is of the second human race seeking revenge against the first human race club of extraordinary people. Oh and Obama is also a gay Muslim Hindu atheist woman who went to the moon once and returned because aliens were up there which is the real reason why NASA faked the moon landings. P.S the club is actually full of aliens and the club seeks to control the world and they have created all the conspriacies of the world hence why they know so much. We must fight ourselves club.

If you believe in that fair enough but that's far-fetched and unlike my argument doesn't actually have any evidence.

Are you really trying to pull this off in the same post you accused someone else of a straw-man argument?

Explain that to the doctors then who have actually seen these things first hand.

It is their job to explain it to us. In the form of a peer-reviewed research paper based on a controlled study.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 07 août 2012 - 01:30 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

android654 wrote...

So you are daft?

There are X number of resouces for X amount of people. If the amount of people exceeds the amount of resources available, then the population is more than we can accomadate. That's overpopulation.

No but it seems you're daft because there's alternative energy sources available. Fossil fuel is destroying this world anyway and there's other energy methods such as solar energy and wind energy which are actually renewable. Once again you've created a strawman argument. It's not overpopulation. What you've tried to described is food-shortage but we aren't suffering from that either. If complete depletion of fossil fuel will result in humanity's death (as you seem to be proclaiming with your overdramatic statements) then we should end our lives right now.

I suggest you read the article below:

http://www.ecology.c...ergy-resources/ 

Naturally all resources would deplete quicker as the population grows and naturally humanity will create new ways to over-come the obstacles faced with depleted resources. Complete over-population will occur one day when cities, towns and countrysides are packed and without death (which your dream proposes) over-population would occur quickly. Imagine if scientists had created a way to transfer the consciousness of a human into a robot during the 5 century (you're the one who said "wouldn't it be great if Plato was living today via the robot immortality?" so don't give me that look). The world would have been over-populated long before now. 

android654 wrote... 
No, the science to extend human life is called Life Extension sciences. The goal is to indefinitely extend the human life span. This is being researched in cybernetics, gene therapy, and has been studied since society began through homeopathy. The quest for eternal life is as old as the conscious mind itself.

That's not what transferring your consciousness into a robot does though. Your heart is not used and neither is your brain. You won't have any organs that grow old and stop. You will be in a metal body that will continue to exist as long as it was built to last and with a consciousness that can be transferred into any other metal body you could continue to exist forever by constantly transferring your consciousness into the next best technology.

Well it's that or you continue to exist for as long as the corporation that built your body demands. "Thank you for choosing rObotiksRus. Your life is running out. Please pay £1,000,000 to extend your life. Thank you." Or did you think such a technological miracle would be devoid of corruption and corporate greed? I guess you didn't pay close attention to the plot of Deus Ex: Human Revolution. It wasn't just about the illuminati and gaining revenge you know...

android654 wrote...  
the rich can not access space with out clearance and cooperation from their governments. Those stories you hear about rich people giving Richard Branson checks to go space are misleading. They are investing in the funding of a business that may or may not build systems with the capability to eneter space. Instead of dividends the investors will recieve seats on the commercial madien voyage. Once businesses adapt that, they will be open to the public. Just like you can buy a plane ticket.

Guess you haven't heard of space tourism then...

Let me educate you on that matter:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Space_tourism 

"NOT WIKIPEDIA! OMG! THEY'RE NOT TO BE TRUSTED."

Well since the information contains sources for this article and can be verified on other sites, yes I think it can be trusted this time.

Didn't you know Richard Garriott went into space?

http://www.richardinspace.com/ 

This is proof that you're just spewing your own unsubstantiated opinions as facts. Perhaps you should do a bit of research and quote facts and sources next time instead of relying on your own limited knowledge and opinion of what you think is right.

android654 wrote...   


Observations are used to gather evicence. Evidence that needs to be
weighed against other evidence. Has there been controlled euthanisizng
of patients and ressusitation to judge nde? No? Then it is entirely
annecdotal and proves more about faulty equipment and the systems in
place to declare death than it does about the after-life.

Doesn't need to be. The fact is is that there's been clinically dead patients from all around the world who have validated NDE's and OOBE's along with the doctors who have confirmed everything. Or are the doctors in on your conspriacy too? Maybe NASA did fake the moon landings after all if we go by your logic...

android654 wrote...    
The accounts of ancient civilizations isn't proof of anything. We've prayed to the sun, killed the defective at birth, and had a whole host of bizzare rituals that serve no purpose. What you are is man in search of evidence for a theory that is supported only by other people who believe in that theory. IF what you claim is true, then there's much more evidence for active encounters and communications with extraterrestrials. Guess what, they're both bulls**t.

The Anicent Greeks were also among the first to propose that the earth was spherical so dismissing them as "primitive idiots" can't be done here. They also built the first analog computer and the first Hydraulic telegraph telecommunications system. The only reason they didn't build the things we have today was because they didn't have the resources.

Since I've seen ghosts and the afterlife first-hand I'm not relying on another person's account to prove it true to me. The encounters with extraterrestrials are all different and all the so-called victims are the very same people who propose inane conspriacy theories (like you) or who all believed in Ufology beforehand. NDE's and OOBE's are all described the same and validated by doctors and have happened to milions of people from all different beliefs, cultures and countries over different peroids of time. There are no UFO abduction in the ancient peroid. The first report of alien abduction was in 1957. NDE's and OOBE's have been occuring for thousands of years and millions of people have experienced them.

Let me educate you on statistical anecdotal evidence which isn't entirely invalid:

http://www.uow.edu.a...anecdotal.html 

At this rate I'm going to become your new teacher.

Either way my argument is based on observations validated by scientists and doctors and the statistics confirm the observations and reports are more than likely true than not otherwise you argue for a global ancient conspriacy occuring. UFO abductions have not been observed by any professional or validated.

android654 wrote...     
You also have legitamte researchers from the FBI, DIA, and universities around the world hunting for ghosts, paranormal humans, cryptozoological animals, demons, and aliens. That does not make their claims legitamate. It makes them grown men with more imagination than sense.

Step your game up junior. If you're trying to make a claim for the existnece of a soul as a reason for someone to not cryogenically freeze themselves and be transplanted into a machine in the future, have some evidence to support it. And none of this eye witness and syfy channel stories crap. Something tangible that can be analyzed and weighed against other facts and explinations.

There are no researchers from the FBI, DIA and universities hunting down demons and mythological creatures. There is research dedicated to demonology but whether these people believe in demons walking on earth (unlikely and it doesn't seem so based on the articles that have been written by these guys) is another story. Most people who are involved in demonology are theologains. I suggest you do your research before creating false claims.

You're presenting your unsubstantiated views and opinions as facts again. Stop it. It's getting really annoying. I think you should stop watching Supernatual. There are no FBI agents hunting down demons. 

The DIA hunts demons? Well I Googled that and got nothing save for a crazy conspriacy site probably created by you. I Googled for the FBI hunting demons and found nothing. I think it's time for you to stop the lying and actually go and do some research. I've provided sources for all my claims. You haven't.

android654 wrote...    
And before you start, the price for cryogenic freezing begins at about 30 dollars a month. A guy from McDonalds on minimum wage can  save enough to keep him on ice for decades.

Sorry but that's unreleated to this whole debate and doesn't consist of transferring your consciousness into an immortal robot.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 07 août 2012 - 02:07 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

TheMufflon wrote...

Yes. I access space all the time with my GPS.

No you can't. You can view it (just like anyone else) but you cannot enter it which is what accessing space means.

TheMufflon wrote... 
No. You cannot explain it any other way. That does not mean it is the correct, logical, or true explanation. What you are positing is an argument from ignorance and a false dilemma.

Yet you cannot propose another explanation. You just deny it because you're too stubborn and closed-minded to accept something that is best explained by an afterlife existing. The brain has stopped along with the hearts and lungs during these NDE's and OOBE's so what the person is experiencing is their consciousness in another plane of existence.

Please propose another explanation because I can assure you that your explanation will be illogical.

TheMufflon wrote... 

Nor does the argument that because people from different times and cultures have (purportedly) experienced the same phenomenon give any indication of interacting with other "realms/dimensions". The simple fact is that biologically speaking all humans are nearly identical; you might as well claim that since cancer has been experienced by people from all times and cultures it comes from the fourth dimension.

Then you aren't paying attention to the facts and research. What these people have experienced has been clinical death and then experience of things after that death when their brain, heart and lungs are no longer functioning. People who have never seen can see in this other dimension and have come back after being resuscitated telling what they saw describing the shapes and colors.

I guess that's the imagination of the brain though? Yeah. These people who have been blind since birth know about shapes and colors right?



I suppose it's all imagination when the brain isn't functioning right? Please don't make me laugh. It's proof of a consciousness, a soul that exists without the body.

TheMufflon wrote...  

Are you really trying to pull this off in the same post you accused someone else of a straw-man argument?

That's the alternative theory. Other alternative theories are even more far-fetched. So it's either believing in that or the more logical theory which is mine.

TheMufflon wrote...  
It is their job to explain it to us. In the form of a peer-reviewed research paper based on a controlled study.

And that's exactly what they are doing and have done:

http://www.medicine....s/cspp/dops#NDE 

http://www.horizonre...e.php?cat_id=38 

http://today.msnbc.m...ence-afterlife/

http://news.bbc.co.u...alth/986177.stm 

Quite frankly it's not a surprise to me that most doctors believe in God and an afterlife considering the research that has been done in NDE's and OOBE's and how they've been validated by doctors themselves.

But I suppose the doctors are imagining things too right?



Just admit defeat. The evidence is against you and Android. I promise that I won't boast about winning.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 07 août 2012 - 02:36 .