57 réponses à ce sujet

[RussianSpy27]

With all the talk of endings, I would like to stress the importance of a beginning that draws a player into the world to such an extent that the player cannot help but fall in love with the game's world.

While I enjoyed DA2, I felt that much of my immersion and care for Hawke's world and all of the codex about Theidas was there because the love for Theidas was already there from DA:O. See, the Origin stories were so beautiully executed that the player as the Warden couldn't help but be drawn into the world of the game. The Origin stories succeeded in following ways: (1) Steady introduction of the character to Theidas through conversation with characters and codex entries (2) emotional attachment to the origin that made you feel like you really are from that background and family and (3) reaction of the world, especially upon returning to your origin, that rekindled that connection.

DA2 also has a prologue where we learn about Hawke, but the fast introduction to the lore of Theidas, all of which (from Blood Mages, and numerous demons to Quinari and scattered out of context codex) seems to be stuck into one city of Kirkwil fails to establish that needed immersion into the world and the unique lore of DA. I felt that immersion in DA2, but only because it was previously established for me in DA:O. Were I a new player, I would not care nearly as much about Theidas and its characters.

I asked myself as to what my reaction would be if I were a new player and the two word answer was "So what?"
There are some mages around in some tower guarded by templars? So what? Elves living in a poor city quarter, so what? Some dwarwen tunnel called Deep Roads? So what? Weird looking tainted monsters appearing in the beginning? So what?

Conclusion: If you want to attract New Fans, please work on the beginning of DA3 that will make them fall in love with the world just as it will make original fans happy to be  back in it.

Edit: Just read a new article by GameSpy about 10 top PC beginnings and DA:O made the cut as #4 http://pc.gamespy.co.../1225736p1.html

Modifié par RussianSpy27, 16 août 2012 - 01:41 .

[Cultist]

Never judge a book by its cover

[Darth Death]

Any logically person would like to start from the beginning. I think it's pretty demanding to grasp everything from a sequel despite not playing the previous installments. If you want immersion, then you'll have to watch the first movie, read the first book, or play the first game. I can't stand people who just want to jump into a series (expecting to know everything) without first experiencing the prologue or intro. It's a noob move or a novice mistake.

[Arthur Cousland]

Having some kind of "origin story" for the main character would make for a nice intro, even if there's only one playable race. The player could get a feel for the game, the setting and combat before they're thrown into the fire.

The magi origin in Origins, for example, was a good intro into what it was like to be a mage, and it was full of codex entries on magic, the chantry and etc.

[LolaLei]

Yeah I'd love to see the origins return in DA3, even if we can only play as a human again, some sort of intro prologue that gives us a glimpse of the protagonists life prior to his/her big adventure would be awesome, or maybe the choice of 3 different class origins dependant on what you pick (warrior/rogue/mage) that gives you a completely different start to the game, shows us what life is currently like for each class AND serves as the tutorial to teach you all the new basic moves and skills etc.

Modifié par LolaLei, 03 août 2012 - 06:41 .

[EricHVela]

In the past, games often got away with not including anything from the previous games except a booklet with a brief backstory. (Before some of you were born.)

I don't understand the need to keep including decisions from previous games. It seems that the payoff is either a shallow story trying to deal with all the possibilities left over from the previous or a story that essentially ignores previous choices, leaving people confused as why bothering to import a previous game.

In the past, game sequels just picked a canon and went with it. It never seemed to hurt the previous games' sales.

That said, EA's drive for a "larger audience" might also include trying to get new players, for the newest games that their studios create, to play the old games as well. This whole import business goes along that theory. In a game created by a different studio as a sequel to a Bioware game, they merely worked the former decisions into the initial dialog and forgot about it until two other dialog situations. It was hardly necessary at all.

I'm all for just moving forward instead of being tied to the past.

That's a great beginning.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Cultist wrote...

Never judge a book by its cover

The beginning of a game is not the "cover." It's the...beginning of the game, the exposition to the story. The CD box is the cover. It's a general rule of good writing (anything: books, movies, games, etc.) that the beginning should hook the reader/viewer/player otherwise, what incentive do they have to keep playing? The intros to DA:O were wonderful, the intro to DA2 was terrible. You're thrown into fighting an invading hoard of darkspawn with almost no context, backstory, or insight as to the characters. It was pretty terrible writing for what was otherwise a pretty well written game imo. 

Also, I'm not sure where you go the idea that the OP was talking about "decision imports," he's simply talking about an effective intro regardless of whatever the established cannon is (although the reason why I started playing DA:O was that it was implied it would be a series of games where your choices would matter and you would be able to shape the world through multiple games, which is what I think is one of the core selling points of the Dragon Age brand, it's the reason I picked up DA:O when I was looking for an RPG series in the first place). Nor is he advocating that intros tell you everything about the world or about past games. The origins intros certainly didn't do that, they gave just enough context and story development for the player to feel imerrsed in the game (something that's vital to any RPG). There was absoultely no immersion in the DA2 intro. I think the OP is spot on. 

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 03 août 2012 - 07:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

Cultist wrote...

Never judge a book by its cover

But feel free to judge book covers.

[King Cousland]

ReggarBlane wrote...

In the past, games often got away with not including anything from the previous games except a booklet with a brief backstory. (Before some of you were born.)

I don't understand the need to keep including decisions from previous games. It seems that the payoff is either a shallow story trying to deal with all the possibilities left over from the previous or a story that essentially ignores previous choices, leaving people confused as why bothering to import a previous game.

In the past, game sequels just picked a canon and went with it. It never seemed to hurt the previous games' sales.

That said, EA's drive for a "larger audience" might also include trying to get new players, for the newest games that their studios create, to play the old games as well. This whole import business goes along that theory. In a game created by a different studio as a sequel to a Bioware game, they merely worked the former decisions into the initial dialog and forgot about it until two other dialog situations. It was hardly necessary at all.

I'm all for just moving forward instead of being tied to the past.

That's a great beginning.

This is irrelevent to the issue. 

——————

A cinematic like this is a good way to introduce new players to the general story of the game without making explanations seem forced or tacked on. While I would like to see them return, multiple origin stoires aren't necessary to introduce us to the game or make us feel an emotional attatchment. All we need is to be able to have some kind of gameplay that lets us dip our feet into the world and get familiar with the setting before we're plunged into the action (DA II failed in this respect). A better solution in DA II than having Varric explain about the Blight and give backstory would simply have been to allow us to start in Ostagar (or Lothering for a mage), exploring the camp, talking to soldiers - essentially easing new players into the lore - before we flee to the Blightlands. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 03 août 2012 - 08:22 .

[Wulfram]

I think the Dwarf Noble Origin is the best opening of an RPG I've seen, because it gives you lots of cool opportunities to make little choices that say interesting things about your character.

[PsychoBlonde]

Darth Death wrote...

Any logically person would like to start from the beginning. I think it's pretty demanding to grasp everything from a sequel despite not playing the previous installments. If you want immersion, then you'll have to watch the first movie, read the first book, or play the first game. I can't stand people who just want to jump into a series (expecting to know everything) without first experiencing the prologue or intro. It's a noob move or a novice mistake.

They don't expect to know everything--what they expect is to get *enough* of the vital context to be going forward while still not boring people with rehash.

One way to do this is to drop the PC into an unusual situation where what's going on must be explained.  The new players will not feel shut out by things they don't understand, while the old players will get to see a bunch of new stuff they hadn't seen YET while still enjoying the benefit that their extra context confers.  It's sort of like this:

New player:  Ohhh, there's *something* freaky weird going on here! *Explore*
Old player:  Ohhh, these dwarves are behaving really strangely! *explore*

You really CAN do things that work for BOTH people.

[Renmiri1]

I think the Anders recruiting quest pretty much sums up tha major conflict in DA2. You see him trying to rescue a friend from "jail" and find out that templars are lobotomizing people. Tranquils weren't sinister on DAO, you only get to see the real horror of the Rite of Tranquility on DA2. After that, you pretty much understand why Bethany / Hawke have to be apostates and all the drama behind Meredith and Orcino. Only problem is that you can leave that quest to do last, making you wander aimlessly around Kirkwall for quite a while till you figure out why Bethany (or mage Hawke) is hiding.

As for a good DA3 beginning.. DAO and DA2 had good ones. Just don't do that rushed ****** poor job that was done at Mass Effect 3 where you meet Sheppard on Earth with no explanation whatsoever and 2 seconds later Anderson is teaching you combat amidst a full scale reaper invasion. UGH

That goes for the ending too: Look at Mass Effect 3 ending. Don't do anything remotely similar. Not unless you want to kill another franchise.

[King Cousland]

Renmiri1 wrote...

As for a good DA3 beginning.. DAO and DA2 had good ones

I disagree. DA II had an atrocious beginning in my opinion. We had no time to immerse ourself in the world, no time to learn who Hawke and his family were and no opportunity to empathise with them. You say that Mass Effect 3 was poor in that it jumped straight into action, well DA II did exactly the same thing. In fact, we actually had more non-combative interaction before combat itself in ME 3 than we did in DA II. This could have been avoided if not for the framed narrative. 

[PsychoBlonde]

King Cousland wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

As for a good DA3 beginning.. DAO and DA2 had good ones

I disagree. DA II had an atrocious beginning in my opinion. We had no time to immerse ourself in the world, no time to learn who Hawke and his family were and no opportunity to empathise with them. You say that Mass Effect 3 was poor in that it jumped straight into action, well DA II did exactly the same thing. In fact, we actually had more non-combative interaction before combat itself in ME 3 than we did in DA II. This could have been avoided if not for the framed narrative. 

Yeah this narration then 30 second combat tutorial then narration then BOOM In Medias Res stuff is for the birds.

No, we will NOT go into a narcoleptic coma if there isn't combat within the first 30 seconds of the game.  REALLY.

Granted, part of this problem may be exacerbated by the fact that there are EXACTLY two things to do in DA2: talking, and combat.  Actually looking around?  Who does that?

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 04 août 2012 - 01:42 .

[Foolsfolly]

I actually thought Origins had a terrible opening especially if you picked Human Noble or Mage. (The Dwarf openings however were fantastic, the elf ones are somewhere in the middle.) DA2 had a meh opening.

Frankly I do think endings are more important than openings. Openings aren't overly important. In fact unless they're mishandled you rarely talk about openings. They're usually the boring part where you're introduced and the fun gameplay stuff is withheld until later (like exploring, combat, talking to NPCs, or whatever the core fun mechanics of that game are).

Endings though? The game uses most of its run time throwing things into the air... and then in the end they have to catch all those things and bring the player some catharsis.

Think on games in general and not just BioWare games... a whole lot of games have terrible endings. They're hard and they're important.

[Renmiri1]

I haven't done the dwarf start on DAO yet but the elf ones are great. Dalish Elf is the best one IMHO.

I think DA2 start was ok. I don't like long talkative starts like Skyrim did. I wanted to run around and play and had to hear about Stormcloaks.. WTF ? Though starting off in jail is a great tradition in Elder scrolls, so I endured it But I would have liked it much better if I had been able to fight that first dragon in Skyrim.

[Foolsfolly]

Renmiri1 you should do a dwarf opening. I love them both. Noble might be my favorite because of how much of an ass you can be. No other origin allows you to knock up peasants, murder scholars, and tell the ancestors to ****** off because today is all about me!

[Reznore57]

The beginning of DA2 sucked... and it was part of the demo....I don't know what they were thinking.

The Varric intro was Ok , but the escape from Lothering....It could have been really impressive ...the blight arriving at your little village , everything being destroyed , running away...
And all we've got is a bloody corridor like waste land ...

It really needed better cinematics to introduce the familly ( and introduce mages ) , then when you met Aveline and her husband ( introduce templars...) it would have set the story and showing mages and templars working together ...which could have been a nice parallel with the ending.

Anyway ...every time i think about the wasted potentials of Da2 , I cry a bit inside.

[Pzykozis]

Renmiri1 wrote...
But I would have liked it much better if I had been able to fight that first dragon in Skyrim.

You wanted to fight Alduin (or Macho Man Randy Savage) who would have killed you easily at that point?

I kinda enjoy In media res but its extremely tricky to get it right and thats from a purely filmic pov and needs flashbacks to contextualise it, DA2 didnt really do either of these things the opening to me is one of the weaker sections in the game along with perhaps the final section which is a pretty big flaw the two sections which should be the best come off the worst...

Would have preferred it to be abit more dramatic and then once you got to Gwaren (sp?) there were a series of flashbacks on the boat to Kirkwall living out a few scenes prior to the destruction of Lothering or whatever either being with Carver at the big fight and running back to Lothering or however else it could have been done for mages. Bit of grounding for the dramatic start. Some meaning for the siblings death or something.

But yeah an extremely strong beginning is definitly something I enjoy though even the best needs to be abit perhaps less forceful I generally see the beginning of the game like so many times that even the best becomes really really tiring. As an example Skyrims was fairly enjoyable to me the first time... second time i basically tolerated it now on I kinda get put off starting new games because really that start is just scripted to be far too long.

[LobselVith8]

King Cousland wrote...

I disagree. DA II had an atrocious beginning in my opinion. We had no time to immerse ourself in the world, no time to learn who Hawke and his family were and no opportunity to empathise with them. You say that Mass Effect 3 was poor in that it jumped straight into action, well DA II did exactly the same thing. In fact, we actually had more non-combative interaction before combat itself in ME 3 than we did in DA II. This could have been avoided if not for the framed narrative. 

Yeah, it felt odd to see a family member die, but feel nothing because the character was basically a stranger. I don't know why the developers throw us into the action, post-Origins; are they afraid to develop characters and relationships now? Are we supposed to feel the loss of Lothering when the game never shows us what it was like before the darkspawn invaded?

[deatharmonic]

LobselVith8 wrote...

King Cousland wrote...

I disagree. DA II had an atrocious beginning in my opinion. We had no time to immerse ourself in the world, no time to learn who Hawke and his family were and no opportunity to empathise with them. You say that Mass Effect 3 was poor in that it jumped straight into action, well DA II did exactly the same thing. In fact, we actually had more non-combative interaction before combat itself in ME 3 than we did in DA II. This could have been avoided if not for the framed narrative. 

Yeah, it felt odd to see a family member die, but feel nothing because the character was basically a stranger. I don't know why the developers throw us into the action, post-Origins; are they afraid to develop characters and relationships now? Are we supposed to feel the loss of Lothering when the game never shows us what it was like before the darkspawn invaded?

Exactly this.

For me, this is why origins worked. You had time to walk around, talk to your family or friends and establish relationships before things kicked off

[Renmiri1]

Dalish Elf is a bit rushed and you lose Talem right of the bat, but was still the best start IMHO (except dwarf which i havent done yet). It makes you appreciate the Wardens even more, to see Duncan's mercy with the elf girl and how he protects the dalish clan

Modifié par Renmiri1, 05 août 2012 - 02:42 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Dalish Elf is a bit rushed and you lose Talem right of the bat, but was still the best start IMHO (except dwarf which i havent done yet). It makes you appreciate the Wardens even more, to see Duncan's mercy with the elf girl and how he protects the dalish clan

I've grown fond of the Dwarf Commoner origin.  I like going from the gutter as a thug/assassin to the "Hero of Ferelden", and how a casteless dwarf became a Paragon.  Then, later on in the game, the player gets to reunite with Rica and learn about little Endrin.