901 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamemako]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 Ok, here it is: Typhoon comparison pre- and post-nerf.

Time taken to kill an Atlas: pre-nerf 6.133 seconds. post-nerf 13.00 seconds (12.25 if you reload cancel). You can see how that impacts gameplay for obvious reasons. Watch side by side comparison - it's pretty interesting to see how big of a nerf this really is.

Equipment: Warp ammo IV, AR rail amp III. Gear: Barrage V. Weapon attachments: Stability damper V and extra clip capacity V. 
Destroyer build same in both.

Video is unlisted so you'll only be able to see it using this link.

This is quite misleading because you're solo and counting reload and warmup time.

Please post your build and Typhoon level. I want to see how well the numbers match.

[Ares Caesar]

Velocithon wrote...

I think it's fine. While I don't have it yet, I've watched the vids and it's slow start up time means it's not great against enemies that surprise you, since you must fire multiple rounds before it gets going.

Bottom line though, it's an UR and while very effective, it isn't a great gun to run around with killing enemies. It's good for taking cover and just unloading from cover. So if you want to change the gun, how about making it wildly inaccurate when NOT in cover, but once in cover give it the current in-cover accuracy it has? Nothing else would change by the way (damage and everything stays the same)

Try using it on class that doesnt have accuracy buffs... it isnt nearly as accurate then, especially out of cover. Its the Destroyer, Geth, and Turian Soldier that make it fairly accurate (the earlier account of "hyper accurate" is an exaggeration, as its NOT sniper rifle accurate).

The problem is that it was only "overpowered" on 1 particular class, while "good" on a few others and "garbage" on a majority of classes (if you intended to use powers at all). Now its only "good" on one particular class... which seems like a poor choice of "balance" to make an ultra-rare viable on only 1 specific class.

[Gamemako]

Eelectrica wrote...

Your post is looking quite.... Well someone can fill in the missing word and clever isn't the word I'd use.
Just been proven the typhoon was nerfed a lot more than most people thought.

You're accusing BioWare of stealth nerfs. The gun was nerfed by exactly 25% on the top end. That is exactly how much it was nerfed. You want to know why the damage "looks lower"? Look at his ammo power.

[Poison_Berrie]

It's a significant hit, but than again the ATLAS is the toughest enemy in the game.

PKTracer: The hit seems to be against Armor.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 03 août 2012 - 11:13 .

[Ares Caesar]

Gamemako wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 Ok, here it is: Typhoon comparison pre- and post-nerf.

Time taken to kill an Atlas: pre-nerf 6.133 seconds. post-nerf 13.00 seconds (12.25 if you reload cancel). You can see how that impacts gameplay for obvious reasons. Watch side by side comparison - it's pretty interesting to see how big of a nerf this really is.

Equipment: Warp ammo IV, AR rail amp III. Gear: Barrage V. Weapon attachments: Stability damper V and extra clip capacity V. 
Destroyer build same in both.

Video is unlisted so you'll only be able to see it using this link.

This is quite misleading because you're solo and counting reload and warmup time.

Please post your build and Typhoon level. I want to see how well the numbers match.

He's using a Typhoon 10, and from what I can tell by his clip size, I would guess Devastator mode is Accuracy+Rate of Fire+Damage (And all passive tree damage as well).

Mind you that was a LEVEL 10 Typhoon... something 99% of the player base will NEVER achieve. (I've had my rares maxed out for the last 4 months and I dont have a single Ultra-rare maxed yet).

[Sp3c7eR]

Gamemako wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 Ok, here it is: Typhoon comparison pre- and post-nerf.

Time taken to kill an Atlas: pre-nerf 6.133 seconds. post-nerf 13.00 seconds (12.25 if you reload cancel). You can see how that impacts gameplay for obvious reasons. Watch side by side comparison - it's pretty interesting to see how big of a nerf this really is.

Equipment: Warp ammo IV, AR rail amp III. Gear: Barrage V. Weapon attachments: Stability damper V and extra clip capacity V. 
Destroyer build same in both.

Video is unlisted so you'll only be able to see it using this link.

This is quite misleading because you're solo and counting reload and warmup time.

Please post your build and Typhoon level. I want to see how well the numbers match.

This is anything but misleading. It's actual gameplay as you'd encounter it in a team. You face a boss, you're the destroyer and you have to take it out. This boss pre-nerf would be harassing your teammates for 6.13 seconds. Post-nerf it would harass your teammates or prevent you completing the objective for 13 seconds. How is this misleading? 

Time taken to kill is all that matters in this game. Damage doesn't matter, DPS doesn't matter. It's how fast you get rid of something in your way. And in this case, the nerf made it so that it's impossible to take out a boss enemy with 1 Typhoon clip. So you -have- to count in warm up and reload times. Otherwise what's the point? It would be unrealistic to compare DPS alone. It doesn't tell even half the story.

My Typhoon is level X and my build is: 

Devastator mode: Weapon Accuracy, Rate of Fire, Damage Bonus

Multi Frag Grenade: Force & damage, Max Grenades, Grenade count (didn't use the skill much)

Battlesuit: Weapon Damage, Headshots, Weapon Damage

Internal Systems: Durability, Shield Recharge, Fitness Expert 

Modifié par Sp3c7eR, 03 août 2012 - 11:14 .

[Transairion]

You're accusing BioWare of stealth nerfs. The gun was nerfed by exactly 25% on the top end. That is exactly how much it was nerfed. You want to know why the damage "looks lower"? Look at his ammo power.

I thought this too, but I had to watch it again to see he does have Warp Ammo (unknown level) on the first example as well: the only way to "cheat" here is to use Warp Ammo IV on the pre-nerf vid, and Warp Ammo I on the post-nerf vid.

His avatar is an Asari though, they're trustworthy unlike those shifty-looking Collector fellows :3

Modifié par Transairion, 03 août 2012 - 11:15 .

[ryoldschool]

Gamemako wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 Ok, here it is: Typhoon comparison pre- and post-nerf.

Time taken to kill an Atlas: pre-nerf 6.133 seconds. post-nerf 13.00 seconds (12.25 if you reload cancel). You can see how that impacts gameplay for obvious reasons. Watch side by side comparison - it's pretty interesting to see how big of a nerf this really is.

Equipment: Warp ammo IV, AR rail amp III. Gear: Barrage V. Weapon attachments: Stability damper V and extra clip capacity V. 
Destroyer build same in both.

Video is unlisted so you'll only be able to see it using this link.

This is quite misleading because you're solo and counting reload and warmup time.

Please post your build and Typhoon level. I want to see how well the numbers match.

His build is at the end of his solo plat video here.

[Eelectrica]

Gamemako wrote...

Eelectrica wrote...

Your post is looking quite.... Well someone can fill in the missing word and clever isn't the word I'd use.
Just been proven the typhoon was nerfed a lot more than most people thought.

You're accusing BioWare of stealth nerfs. The gun was nerfed by exactly 25% on the top end. That is exactly how much it was nerfed. You want to know why the damage "looks lower"? Look at his ammo power.

LOL. Hardly.
You've only got to look at the video. Keep your head in the sand though.

[Rifneno]

ryoldschool wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

Holy ****, we've been misinterpreting that the whole time. No wonder I was still crushing things post-nerf.

So the Typhoon is not only hyper-accurate, it deals 50% more DPS against shields, barrier, and armor than the Rev. Oh God. The gun actually needs another nerf...

hyper-accurate, lol this video I made last night compares Typhoon V to Revenant X. Perhaps you should select another adj for that statement.

One thing to keep in mind is that gamemako seriously suggested people hack their coalesced to put the values back instead of "whining about it." He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Not even sure he's the sharpest spoon.

xis3 wrote...

What's so funny about it ? sorry if i did a bad translation.

What's funny is that you an UR should only get one second difference over a rare that most people think sucks.

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Time taken to kill an Atlas: pre-nerf 6.133 seconds. post-nerf 13.00 seconds (12.25 if you reload cancel). You can see how that impacts gameplay for obvious reasons. Watch side by side comparison - it's pretty interesting to see how big of a nerf this really is.

Christ. Is this the biggest nerf in the game's history? Even the Krysae only lost 40%!

xis3 wrote...

13 sec is still correct for a long range build and solo, can you try with maximum damage close range please ? ( EB + AR V )

Your posts are bad and you should feel bad about being bad. That wasn't long range. Long range would be if he was shooting from the sniper position up by the computer console. More to the point though, that was a solo atlas. I imagine the reason he used a solo Atlas is because it's the only one that you can easily get into a position where you can attack it but it can't attack you until it slooooowly luuuummmmmbbbbeeeeeerrrrsssss its right arm into line of sight with you. If this was a banshee or prime or just about anything that was capable of defending itself, he'd have to constantly take over to recover his shields. Which means another warm up period for the gun. Which means that in almost all practical situations, it won't be nearly as good as it was in that video. And it wasn't even very good in that video (post nerf of course).

[Paeyvn]

I wish i could tell you, still haven't had the fortune to unlock it despite trying fairly hard to =/

[Gamemako]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

This is anything but misleading. It's actual gameplay as you'd encounter it in a team. You face a boss, you're the destroyer and you have to take it out. This boss pre-nerf would be harassing your teammates for 6.13 seconds. Post-nerf it would harass your teammates or prevent you completing the objective for 13 seconds. How is this misleading? 

Time taken to kill is all that matters in this game. Damage doesn't matter, DPS doesn't matter. It's how fast you get rid of something in your way. And in this case, the nerf made it so that it's impossible to take out a boss enemy with 1 Typhoon clip. So you -have- to count in warm up and reload times. Otherwise what's the point? It would be unrealistic to compare DPS alone. It doesn't tell even half the story.

What's the TTK on a Rev? How about a Claymore? Oh, in the range of 25 seconds. You could make the same argument that OMG, huge nerf to the Hypothetical UberGun9000, now takes 2 shots to kill Platinum Banshees, infinitely slower then instant kill, gun now useless. It is, of course, totally ludicrous to say that about this hypth

Furthermore, you're using a metric that is total nonsense in the game. You will not be faced with a situation in which you have to (1) kill an Atlas (2) completely alone (3) and then just stop firing at anything afterward. In the first video, your clip is completely out, but that's OK, it will fully reload itself when you point it at another target, right? Obviously not. And why the hell would you stop firing and just sit there for a while after killing that Atlas in the second video? You wouldn't. You'd go right on with killing things. That's why your videos are extremely misleading.

Additionally, and I'm surprised no-one else has noted this yet, you're using Warp Ammo. Warp ammo does not apply to shields. You haven't modified your build to deal maximum damage because you're still focused on armor damage, and armor is not the majority of what you are shooting.

Sp3c7eR wrote...

My Typhoon is level X and my build is: 

Devastator mode: Weapon Accuracy, Rate of Fire, Damage Bonus

Multi Frag Grenade: Force & damage, Max Grenades, Grenade count (didn't use the skill much)

Battlesuit: Weapon Damage, Headshots, Weapon Damage

Internal Systems: Durability, Shield Recharge, Fitness Expert

Thank you, I just want to run some numbers.

[Gamemako]

PKTracer wrote...

But Gamemako... couldn't there be something in even one variable in the damage formula that might be acting not as expected?  Personally, I wouldn't say BW is stealth nerfing.  In fact, I'm just very interested in the math behind this. The evidence shows something's up.

Possible, but as I already pointed out, a significant part of the discrepancy is probably in the ammo power.

[blaster1 112]

To be honest: i find it to weak.i got it right after the nerf and on gold/plat i have ro stay out of cover to long to actually kill even the weakest units. I would prefer if the clip size is reduces a bit and the damage is increased a lot. N7 destroyer +60% mags should give and capacity V hould give it 200 bullets instead of the 240 now. But the samage should be increased at least 35% i prefer using a shadows sword over the Typhoon. Or a BW with 4 shots. Also it would be nice if a destroyer could have 2 shots in a javelin because now you get 60% upgraded mags but in the end you keep 1 shot. Normal poeple would say. (1/100)•160=1,6 significance makes 2 (laws of physics because if the 1 at the beginning ending answer should be a full number to.

[Sp3c7eR]

Gamemako wrote...

What's the TTK on a Rev? How about a Claymore? Oh, in the range of 25 seconds. You could make the same argument that OMG, huge nerf to the Hypothetical UberGun9000, now takes 2 shots to kill Platinum Banshees, infinitely slower then instant kill, gun now useless. It is, of course, totally ludicrous to say that about this hypth

Furthermore, you're using a metric that is total nonsense in the game. You will not be faced with a situation in which you have to (1) kill an Atlas (2) completely alone (3) and then just stop firing at anything afterward. In the first video, your clip is completely out, but that's OK, it will fully reload itself when you point it at another target, right? Obviously not. And why the hell would you stop firing and just sit there for a while after killing that Atlas in the second video? You wouldn't. You'd go right on with killing things. That's why your videos are extremely misleading.

Additionally, and I'm surprised no-one else has noted this yet, you're using Warp Ammo. Warp ammo does not apply to shields. You haven't modified your build to deal maximum damage because you're still focused on armor damage, and armor is not the majority of what you are shooting.

You're not making much sense here. Claymore's time to kill is one of the lowest in the game paired with the right class. It can take an Atlas faster than a Typhoon destroyer at the moment. Whoever mentioned anything about Revenant in this thread? I made a video comparing Typhoons, not other weapons.

Onto your next point: If a gun takes 2 shots to kill a Banshee, but there's a gun that does it in 1 shot, you'd be pretty stupid to choose the one that does it slower. So I fail to see how my metric is not valid.

Next point: You get faced with all kinds of situations and my test represents a realistic situation. If you don't agree with it, post a video of your own for us to critique.

Everybody knows Warp Ammo does not apply to shields, but I'd be pretty lucky to have a clip of me killing an Atlas or whatever else with a pre-nerf Typhoon to compare it to. For this reason I kept everything constant and had to use Warp Ammo. Do I need to state the obvious further?

And what is this about sitting after killing the 2nd atlas .... I don't even. If you didn't know Let. Me. Spell. It. Out. For. You.

The test is about time taken to kill an Atlas. Whether I sit around or wave my weapon at a Phantom's chest is IRRELEVANT. Ok? That's why the TIMER starts when I start shooting at an Atlas, ends when I kill it. Capiche?

To emphasize my point, test is valid, numbers are valid, method is correct because I didn't change anything in between the two clips. It is both a DPS and a time-taken-to-kill test. You can make up your own mind as to how big of a nerf this was.

I'm done arguing with you by the way, if you need everything spelled out for you in the most obvious manner, please find yourself a resource and educate yourself about the game before coming here to post more nonsense.

[Rifneno]

Gamemako wrote...

Additionally, and I'm surprised no-one else has noted this yet, you're using Warp Ammo. Warp ammo does not apply to shields. You haven't modified your build to deal maximum damage because you're still focused on armor damage, and armor is not the majority of what you are shooting.

WTF? Yes, it is. Atlases have more armor than shields and even if not, armor takes less damage than shields without modifiers.

Do some fact checking at least once a while, will you?

Possible, but as I already pointed out, a significant part of the discrepancy is probably in the ammo power.

Watch the video. He's clearly using warp ammo both times. Unless you're accusing him of blatantly manipulating things by using IV in the first and I in the second. In which case, you have no proof.

[Gezar149]

Gamemako wrote...

[Furthermore, you're using a metric that is total nonsense in the game. You will not be faced with a situation in which you have to (1) kill an Atlas (2) completely alone (3) and then just stop firing at anything afterward. In the first video, your clip is completely out, but that's OK, it will fully reload itself when you point it at another target, right? Obviously not. And why the hell would you stop firing and just sit there for a while after killing that Atlas in the second video? You wouldn't. You'd go right on with killing things. That's why your videos are extremely misleading.

What game have you been playing?  I cant count the times were there have been multiple Bosses and suddenly I find that I have to face one alone.  I can think of many ways facing a boss alone could happen; going to the hack objective and you happen to take the wrong route, or maybe those wonderful times when your whole team dies. 
The fact of the matter is that with this nerf a great weapon has been rendered ok. 

Btw, I notice you dont have your manifest on display? why is that?

Modifié par Gezar149, 04 août 2012 - 12:01 .

[Ogrinash]

Would have been better to buff all the other ARs to be competitive with it rather than nerfing it to be competitive with the others. Easier to just fiddle with one gun though.

Played many a Gold match with it since the nerf (Typhoon II), and the only class that I used where it felt like it was somewhat competitive with all of the usual Infiltrators and biotic classes was the Destroyer with Devastator mode. Other Soldiers and Sentinels that don't have the massive bonus to attack really lacked in comparison to the other classes; switch over to Harrier and bang, competitive again (even with the small ammunition pool).

Perhaps remove the ramp up time so it's firing at its max instantly?

[Curtoss]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

What's the TTK on a Rev? How about a Claymore? Oh, in the range of 25 seconds. You could make the same argument that OMG, huge nerf to the Hypothetical UberGun9000, now takes 2 shots to kill Platinum Banshees, infinitely slower then instant kill, gun now useless. It is, of course, totally ludicrous to say that about this hypth

Furthermore, you're using a metric that is total nonsense in the game. You will not be faced with a situation in which you have to (1) kill an Atlas (2) completely alone (3) and then just stop firing at anything afterward. In the first video, your clip is completely out, but that's OK, it will fully reload itself when you point it at another target, right? Obviously not. And why the hell would you stop firing and just sit there for a while after killing that Atlas in the second video? You wouldn't. You'd go right on with killing things. That's why your videos are extremely misleading.

Additionally, and I'm surprised no-one else has noted this yet, you're using Warp Ammo. Warp ammo does not apply to shields. You haven't modified your build to deal maximum damage because you're still focused on armor damage, and armor is not the majority of what you are shooting.

You're not making much sense here. Claymore's time to kill is one of the lowest in the game paired with the right class. It can take an Atlas faster than a Typhoon destroyer at the moment. Whoever mentioned anything about Revenant in this thread? I made a video comparing Typhoons, not other weapons.

Onto your next point: If a gun takes 2 shots to kill a Banshee, but there's a gun that does it in 1 shot, you'd be pretty stupid to choose the one that does it slower. So I fail to see how my metric is not valid.

Next point: You get faced with all kinds of situations and my test represents a realistic situation. If you don't agree with it, post a video of your own for us to critique.

Everybody knows Warp Ammo does not apply to shields, but I'd be pretty lucky to have a clip of me killing an Atlas or whatever else with a pre-nerf Typhoon to compare it to. For this reason I kept everything constant and had to use Warp Ammo. Do I need to state the obvious further?

And what is this about sitting after killing the 2nd atlas .... I don't even. If you didn't know Let. Me. Spell. It. Out. For. You.

The test is about time taken to kill an Atlas. Whether I sit around or wave my weapon at a Phantom's chest is IRRELEVANT. Ok? That's why the TIMER starts when I start shooting at an Atlas, ends when I kill it. Capiche?

To emphasize my point, test is valid, numbers are valid, method is correct because I didn't change anything in between the two clips. It is both a DPS and a time-taken-to-kill test. You can make up your own mind as to how big of a nerf this was.

I'm done arguing with you by the way, if you need everything spelled out for you in the most obvious manner, please find yourself a resource and educate yourself about the game before coming here to post more nonsense.

 
I completly agree with the numbers and videos i think that the revenant comparision came from everyone saying that it out dps the nerf typhoon. But your video defintaly proves that it was more than a 25% nerf. I appriciate all the hard work you put into showing us this. Plus the typoon X is impossible for most to get. 1 is hard enough

[ryoldschool]

I also want Eric to respond to spctr ( sp sorry) video evidence. And the guy above is right. Spc3r probably did a better job of evaluating the nerf than the balance team at bioware.

[Relix28]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 Ok, here it is: Typhoon comparison pre- and post-nerf.

Time taken to kill an Atlas: pre-nerf 6.133 seconds. post-nerf 13.00 seconds (12.25 if you reload cancel). You can see how that impacts gameplay for obvious reasons. Watch side by side comparison - it's pretty interesting to see how big of a nerf this really is.

Equipment: Warp ammo IV, AR rail amp III. Gear: Barrage V. Weapon attachments: Stability damper V and extra clip capacity V. 
Destroyer build same in both.

Video is unlisted so you'll only be able to see it using this link.

Thnx for the excelent comparison vid.

I did notice that the nerf was pretty bad, but I didn't know it was this bad.

[Ogrinash]

Also, people will have to understand that in Sp3c7eR's pre-nerf video, it's showing a class perfect for such in addition to high level Consumables (plus it's level X IIRC, which most people will never have anywhere near).

Try using a low level Typhoon, without high level Consumables, on a Krogan Soldier. You probably will only be able to kill an Atlas with all of the ammunition carried (Atlas is a cakewalk compared to a Banshee, for example).