901 réponses à ce sujet

[Hypertion]

i will also say this.. all assult rifles must have a higher DPS than other more powerful but limited shot weapons to balance out the need to train them. only a few AR posess the damage level needed to be of benifit while exposing yourself to incoming fire.

by comparison, a shotgun does all its damage in a instant, allowing hit and run tactics for easy survivablilty. while there are plenty of exceptions the general rule still follows this.

[Gamemako]

Still running numbers to zero in on actual mechanics. 1.5x total damage multi on top of 1.5x ramp-up multi is not quite right unless he is missing more than he appears to be. Multi applying to armor only is pretty well ruled out as it would leave him with 35 bullets before he could start damaging the armor. In the video, he hit armor around 70 bullets left, though at least a few rounds missed the target (you can watch him go high on the Atlas). The most consistent model thus far is sum multiplier, where you have 55 * (1 + 0.5 ramp-up + 0.5 protection bonus), but there is considerable analysis yet to do.

Rifneno wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

Additionally, and I'm surprised no-one else has noted this yet, you're using Warp Ammo. Warp ammo does not apply to shields. You haven't modified your build to deal maximum damage because you're still focused on armor damage, and armor is not the majority of what you are shooting.

WTF? Yes, it is. Atlases have more armor than shields and even if not, armor takes less damage than shields without modifiers.

Do some fact checking at least once a while, will you?

Possible, but as I already pointed out, a significant part of the discrepancy is probably in the ammo power.

Watch the video. He's clearly using warp ammo both times. Unless you're accusing him of blatantly manipulating things by using IV in the first and I in the second. In which case, you have no proof.

Please do your own fact checking, because Warp Ammo does not apply to shields. Go test it yourself. For example, Mantis on MQE with operative package V. Base damage 769.5, sum bonus 40% (5% class skill, 25% barrel, 10% op pack). Total damage per shot: 1077.3. Silver Centurion shield: 1125. Fire test shot: 1 bar left. Equip Warp Ammo (I tested both II and IV to be totally sure, since we don't know if level IV ammo powers have any unusual mechanics). Level II is 25% extra damage, which would be 65% total bonus = 1269.675 damage (breaks shield). Guess what: still 1 bar left. Test with Warp Ammo IV, which would be even more damaging, and you still have 1 bar of shield left. Ergo, Warp Ammo does not apply to shields.

In video 1, roughly half (slightly less based on the current formula) of the bullets he fires go into armor while the other half go into shields. In video 2, 2/3rds of the bullets from his first clip go into shield, which means that you get the bonus only 1/3rd of the time instead of 1/2. This also affects average damage and therefore overall DPS. Finally, purely as a matter of accounting for other time discrepancies, Destroyer ROF was also decreased.

Now go back to whatever hole you came out of.

Gezar149 wrote...

Btw, I notice you dont have your manifest on display? why is that?

You cannot un-share information, especially not on EA's network. But if it helps you sleep at night, my Typhoon:

http://img849.images...804/typhoon.jpg

Modifié par Gamemako, 04 août 2012 - 02:18 .

[Aiiro]

I think the damage multiplier should be buffed a little bit. Maybe to 1.75, so it doesn't become "overpowered," but at the same time, not as underwhelming.

Modifié par Aiiro, 04 août 2012 - 02:19 .

[TeamLexana]

Gamemako wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

 Ok, here it is: Typhoon comparison pre- and post-nerf.

Time taken to kill an Atlas: pre-nerf 6.133 seconds. post-nerf 13.00 seconds (12.25 if you reload cancel). You can see how that impacts gameplay for obvious reasons. Watch side by side comparison - it's pretty interesting to see how big of a nerf this really is.

Equipment: Warp ammo IV, AR rail amp III. Gear: Barrage V. Weapon attachments: Stability damper V and extra clip capacity V. 
Destroyer build same in both.

Video is unlisted so you'll only be able to see it using this link.

This is quite misleading because you're solo and counting reload and warmup time.

Please post your build and Typhoon level. I want to see how well the numbers match.

Shooting at an Atlas solo is not misleading since that's probably what a Destroyer with the 'phoon would be doing anyways while their team went after the smaller folk.

The longer time it takes is insane, that's plenty of time to get wrecked while trying to take out an atlas. He's not even using a level of Typhoon most people will ever likely obtain since his is at 10.

[Thoragoros]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

The first nerf was fine. The 2nd was too much. I still use it, but it's a damn ultra-rare, meaning it should be NOTICEABLY better than rares like the revenant.

If you have a Revenant 10, there is no reason to be using the Typhoon anymore.

The Revenant is more versatile weapon.  You don't need to expose yourself to get full damage, and unlike the Typhoon, the Revenant is at least passable in close quarters combat, whereas the Typhoon is totally useless in close quarters.

Also, the Typhoon's so called 'innate bonuses' against armor, shields, and barriers, can be replicated on the Revenant with the correct combination of mods, ammos, and consumables.  Plus, if you have an Assault Rifle Gear, using that on top of mods and consumable turns the Revenant 10 into an excellent, excellent weapon, leaving you no reason to equip the Typhoon, especially if your Typhoon is at 7 or below.  

Even at level 10, the Revenant is still arguably better given its lower recoil, lighter weight, and at least comparable damage.

Modifié par Thoragoros, 04 août 2012 - 02:25 .

[Transairion]

Anybody who thinks the Typhoon has high ammo capacity either hasn't used the thing post nerf in gold/plat or doesn't have it.

Technically you are wrong: the Typhoon has a heap of ammo, but it totally RIPS through it's sizable supply in no time at all. So that ammo is used at probably the same speed you use the entire spare capacity of a Harrier, or less.

Doesn't it have like 100 normal mag and ~300 - 400 spare? That's a flipping lot, I mean even more the Revenant I think... but I haven't used it in a while, I thought it had 108 max mag and like 300 spare at level X?

[Necrotron]

Hypertion wrote...

i will also say this.. all assult rifles must have a higher DPS than other more powerful but limited shot weapons to balance out the need to train them. only a few AR posess the damage level needed to be of benifit while exposing yourself to incoming fire.

by comparison, a shotgun does all its damage in a instant, allowing hit and run tactics for easy survivablilty. while there are plenty of exceptions the general rule still follows this.

I completely agree.  ARs and coincidently all auto-fire weapons should have higher DPR to make up for the downside of having to remain exposed to fire.  Either that, or they need another benefit of stripping shields faster like in ME2.

[Gezar149]

Gezar149 wrote...

Btw, I notice you dont have your manifest on display? why is that?

You cannot un-share information, especially not on EA's network. But if it helps you sleep at night, my Typhoon:

http://img849.images...804/typhoon.jpg

Exactly, I am not the one that  said you never fight bosses on your own.  As far as your manifest? kudos for having a picture of typhoon.  Not that it matters now but the people that seem to be ok with this nerf, and sometimes even support it, dont seem to own one. 
I just want to say this, I am about to win this argument.  I am sliding down a waterslide.
Cheers

[Eckswhyzed]

Thoragoros wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

The first nerf was fine. The 2nd was too much. I still use it, but it's a damn ultra-rare, meaning it should be NOTICEABLY better than rares like the revenant.

If you have a Revenant 10, there is no reason to be using the Typhoon anymore.

The Revenant is more versatile weapon.  You don't need to expose yourself to get full damage, and unlike the Typhoon, the Revenant is at least passable in close quarters combat, whereas the Typhoon is totally useless in close quarters.

Also, the Typhoon's so called 'innate bonuses' against armor, shields, and barriers, can be replicated on the Revenant with the correct combination of mods, ammos, and consumables.  Plus, if you have an Assault Rifle Gear, using that on top of mods and consumable turns the Revenant 10 into an excellent, excellent weapon, leaving you no reason to equip the Typhoon, especially if your Typhoon is at 7 or below.  

Even at level 10, the Revenant is still arguably better given its lower recoil, lighter weight, and at least comparable damage.

Ahhhh.........no.

Accuracy is the best thing the Typhoon has over the Revenant. Good luck holding the Revenant with its spread on heads, something I can quite easily do with the Typhoon.

Using right hand advantage + strafing means the Typhoon is passable in CQC. Especially as you get full movement speed with the Typhoon while firing, which is especially noticeable when backing away from Banshees.

[Ogrinash]

(I'm all for Revenant being competitive with Typhoon, it's just that I would have gone the other way and boosted the Revenant. Silly that Hurricane does more damage.)

[Koenig888]

I have tried the Typhoon post-second nerf and it definitely felt much weaker. The Typhoon will now collect dust while I use other weapons without the elephant weight and long ramp-up time. The only good thing about the nerf is that I did not spend real money to get the Typhoon. I would now be wary of spending real money to get/level any weapon until it is quite clear that the weapon will not get hit with the nerf hammer.

[Thoragoros]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Thoragoros wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

The first nerf was fine. The 2nd was too much. I still use it, but it's a damn ultra-rare, meaning it should be NOTICEABLY better than rares like the revenant.

If you have a Revenant 10, there is no reason to be using the Typhoon anymore.

The Revenant is more versatile weapon.  You don't need to expose yourself to get full damage, and unlike the Typhoon, the Revenant is at least passable in close quarters combat, whereas the Typhoon is totally useless in close quarters.

Also, the Typhoon's so called 'innate bonuses' against armor, shields, and barriers, can be replicated on the Revenant with the correct combination of mods, ammos, and consumables.  Plus, if you have an Assault Rifle Gear, using that on top of mods and consumable turns the Revenant 10 into an excellent, excellent weapon, leaving you no reason to equip the Typhoon, especially if your Typhoon is at 7 or below.  

Even at level 10, the Revenant is still arguably better given its lower recoil, lighter weight, and at least comparable damage.

Ahhhh.........no.

Accuracy is the best thing the Typhoon has over the Revenant. Good luck holding the Revenant with its spread on heads, something I can quite easily do with the Typhoon.

Using right hand advantage + strafing means the Typhoon is passable in CQC. Especially as you get full movement speed with the Typhoon while firing, which is especially noticeable when backing away from Banshees.

Notice I mentioned "mods" in my post?

Equip the Revenant 10 with a Stability Dampener, and it has no noticeable recoil.  Use Devestator Mod in conjunction with a Stability Dampener, and the Revenant has close to 0 recoil.  

Also, as far as accuracy is concerned, the Revenant's spread is more than sufficient given its high rate of fire, DPS, and low recoil with mods.  At level 10, the Revenant is the perfect full-auto rifle for mid to long range firefights. 

 Using right hand advantage + strafing means the Typhoon is passable in CQC. Especially as you get full movement speed with the Typhoon while firing, which is especially noticeable when backing away from Banshees. 

 

The Typhoon is not a clutch weapon for cqc, especially on Platinum.  There usually just isn't the space for it.  The Chaos in platinum changes what is 'good' for clutch from gold drastically.  The Typhoon is not it.  In those unexpected moments when you don't have time to swap weapons, you don't want to be holding a Typhoon, and since the Typhoon's nerf, this 'risk factor' just isn't worth it anymore.

The Typhoon is no longer a "Pro Weapon," simple as that.

Modifié par Thoragoros, 04 août 2012 - 03:00 .

[Voorhees88]

it's not that good for an UR anymore UR should outclass every other weapon given their rarity. it needs a buff change it to where we lose only 10% then it should be balanced. and for the record the only reason people are using any of the new items a lot more is bc they are "NEW"

[Eckswhyzed]

Thoragoros wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Thoragoros wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

The first nerf was fine. The 2nd was too much. I still use it, but it's a damn ultra-rare, meaning it should be NOTICEABLY better than rares like the revenant.

If you have a Revenant 10, there is no reason to be using the Typhoon anymore.

The Revenant is more versatile weapon.  You don't need to expose yourself to get full damage, and unlike the Typhoon, the Revenant is at least passable in close quarters combat, whereas the Typhoon is totally useless in close quarters.

Also, the Typhoon's so called 'innate bonuses' against armor, shields, and barriers, can be replicated on the Revenant with the correct combination of mods, ammos, and consumables.  Plus, if you have an Assault Rifle Gear, using that on top of mods and consumable turns the Revenant 10 into an excellent, excellent weapon, leaving you no reason to equip the Typhoon, especially if your Typhoon is at 7 or below.  

Even at level 10, the Revenant is still arguably better given its lower recoil, lighter weight, and at least comparable damage.

Ahhhh.........no.

Accuracy is the best thing the Typhoon has over the Revenant. Good luck holding the Revenant with its spread on heads, something I can quite easily do with the Typhoon.

Using right hand advantage + strafing means the Typhoon is passable in CQC. Especially as you get full movement speed with the Typhoon while firing, which is especially noticeable when backing away from Banshees.

Notice I mentioned "mods" in my post?

Equip the Revenant 10 with a Stability Dampener, and it has no noticeable recoil.  Use Devestator Mod in conjunction with a Stability Dampener, and the Revenant has close to 0 recoil.  

Also, as far as accuracy is concerned, the Revenant's spread is more than sufficient given its high rate of fire, DPS, and low recoil with mods.  At level 10, the Revenant is the perfect full-auto rifle for mid to long range firefights. 

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. I never use stability mods on when I use the Revenant because I don't need to - the recoil is not as bad as some people make it out to be. It's the SPREAD of the weapon that causes problems when aiming for headshots. The Typhoon's accuracy is much better than the Revenant, which more than makes for up for DPS loss versus mobs.

As for bosses, I find the Typhoon's TTK to be lower. Maybe that's a feature of my particular setup? (Revenant with EMag + AP mod versus Typhoon with EB + EMag).

[Eckswhyzed]

Thoragoros wrote...

The Typhoon is not a clutch weapon for cqc, especially on Platinum.  There usually just isn't the space for it.  The Chaos in platinum changes what is 'good' for clutch from gold drastically.  The Typhoon is not it.  In those unexpected moments when you don't have time to swap weapons, you don't want to be holding a Typhoon, and since the Typhoon's nerf, this 'risk factor' just isn't worth it anymore.

The Typhoon is no longer a "Pro Weapon," simple as that.

Geth Heavy Melee

More seriously, I do agree with you on that. Typhoon is not very good in CQC on plat.

[Thoragoros]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. I never use stability mods on when I use the Revenant because I don't need to - the recoil is not as bad as some people make it out to be. It's the SPREAD of the weapon that causes problems when aiming for headshots. The Typhoon's accuracy is much better than the Revenant, which more than makes for up for DPS loss versus mobs.

As for bosses, I find the Typhoon's TTK to be lower. Maybe that's a feature of my particular setup? (Revenant with EMag + AP mod versus Typhoon with EB + EMag).

That's your mistake, because when you don't have to account for the Revenant's recoil, you will find the overall 'accuracy' of the gun increases enormously.  I know the spread doesn't decrease, but you will be landing many more of your shots.

Here is what I do in most situations, Barrel Mod V, Stability Dampener V, AP Ammo, Assaulr Rifle Gear V.  Then I add to this the accuracy, damage, and RoF bonus from Devastator Mod.

This makes the Revenant accurate, powerful, and able to shred bosses.  Plus, I don't have to worry about cqc because the revenant is passable for when I can't switch to my shotgun.

Trust me, try that loadout or something similar, and it becomes a much better weapon.

Eckswhyzed wrote...
Geth Heavy Melee 

More seriously, I do agree with you on that. Typhoon is not very good in CQC on plat.

 

lol yeah.  

BioWare's new slogan, "We are all Geth Infiltrators now."

Modifié par Thoragoros, 04 août 2012 - 03:08 .

[SeaJayX]

Should have been x1.75

Modifié par SeaJayX, 04 août 2012 - 03:06 .

[Eckswhyzed]

Thoragoros wrote...

That's your mistake, because when you don't have to account for the Revenant's recoil, you will find the overall 'accuracy' of the gun increases enormously.  I know the spread doesn't decrease, but you will be landing many more of your shots.

Here is what I do in most situations, Barrel Mod V, Stability Dampener V, AP Ammo, Assaulr Rifle Gear V.  Then I add to this the accuracy, damage, and RoF bonus from Devastator Mod.

This makes the Revenant accurate, powerful, and able to shred bosses.  Plus, I don't have to worry about cqc because the revenant is passable for when I can't switch to my shotgun.

Trust me, try that loadout or something similar, and it becomes a much better weapon.

I might give that a try then. Hurrah for LMG geth infiltrators! 

Typhoon nerf has nearly made me put on equipment............how tragic.

[ClockworkSpectre]

SeaJayX wrote...

Should have been x1.75

Most definitely, I was just going to say this as well.  Nerfing it wasn't the issue for me, but the degree to which it was nerfed was just uncalled for.  It is outclassed on every class I have used it on by other weapons, maybe with exception to the destroyer.  And considering its weight that is just not right.

Besides, it is an ultra rare and should be more powerfull than the other weapons in its class that are not.  This is a problem I have with all the UR weapons, many of them are weak or only equal to rare weapons of the same type.

Modifié par ClockworkSpectre, 04 août 2012 - 03:16 .

[Cull58]

Nerf was far too drastic. I wouldnt have really called it overpowered anyway to be honest. Only really great on the destroyer and then it was only great from range.

Huge weight, spool up time, and rarity and you then nerf it into oblivion. And it is no good comparing it to the other assualt rifles because they all suck.
The only good one is the harrier and you gimped that with the ammo capacity.

The ultra rares are actually ultra ultra ultra rare and then when you get them, they either suck ass like the majority of them, or you nerf the hell out of them.

If you want a wider selection of classes and weapons to be used than make more of them viable and stop nerfing anything that is remotely viable on platinum.
No wonder most people just farm all day is it.

Oh and the devastator mode nerf was just stupid.

Stop nerfing things that destroy on silver. Everything destroys on silver. Some of us would like something we can actually use on platinum.
Thanks.

Modifié par Cull58, 04 août 2012 - 03:19 .

[TeamLexana]

Koenig888 wrote...

I have tried the Typhoon post-second nerf and it definitely felt much weaker. The Typhoon will now collect dust while I use other weapons without the elephant weight and long ramp-up time. The only good thing about the nerf is that I did not spend real money to get the Typhoon. I would now be wary of spending real money to get/level any weapon until it is quite clear that the weapon will not get hit with the nerf hammer.

Agreed. Nerfing the guns seems to me as something that would hurt BW more then leaving it as is since more folks probably wouldn't be willing to ever spent another dime on packs again. Especially considering how much money it would take to unlock/level up the Typhoon, given the randomness of the store.

[Xaijin]

The typhoon was fine. It needed no nerf.

1. There seems to be a consistent need to place ARs in an unusable category in risk/performance/reward situations. For many the Typhoon was the first AR the could be used continually and consistently, owing to harrier ammo issues.

2. It was one the few platinum ready assault rifles out of the box. That is no longer the case, as the reduced damage does not justify its pack cost or the length of time needed to remain out of cover while using it. Perhaps even unconsciously, this weapon was one of the few that recalled the ARs effectiveness in past MEs. Small wonder people are pissed.

3. This is a glaring example of what is wrong with the store and Ultra-Rares. The Typhoon was one of ->four<- URs that are actually worth the cost. (15 million credits average to max) The rest are either overshadowed in dps or usability/utility by golds. Stated flatly, Blacks are completely overpriced and over-rare compared to Golds. Their cost is in no way shape or form justified by any sane process of measurement. This is doubly ironic in light of deliberate farming to earn enough to buy underpowered-by-cost weapons, something apparently that this balancing action is supposed to prevent or modify. Cognitive dissonance disconnect much?

4. I don't recall hearing a single complaint about the Typhoon at launch, or the weeks following.

5. The PPR, Typhoon and Revenant should be flagship powerless-class weapons. The pinnacle of sustained dps. They aren't. Not even close.

6. Gear should be performance enhancing, not mandatory for any mode, weapon, or class.

Modifié par Xaijin, 04 août 2012 - 03:55 .

[Kalas Magnus]

Immortal Strife wrote...

I just want say, I love it when you guys (Bioware Devs) posts on the forum. I absolutely agree, the Typhoon is an awesome gun, even post nerf. Now can we get someone to look into the Pirahna, the weight and DPS are insanely too good, the gun destroys on platinum with 90% of the characters.

 I've seen how bioware nerfs things. It will be falcon 3.0.

Modifié par Kalas321, 04 août 2012 - 03:33 .