901 réponses à ce sujet

[Veritas3489]

 For some reason my PSPs love to give me this gun.  Fortunately I manged to get it to level II before the first nerf hit it.  As of last night, I managed to get the gun leveled to V.  Post nerf I actually haven't used it that frequently, although I decided I wanted to test it against what I remembered and test it against the current cerberus harrier.  I used the exact same class (destroyer maxed for highest possible dps).  Pre-nerf I was using Warfighter V only, but I just recently got my Assault Rifle Amp up to V and decided to try it post nerf using that and used no consumable equipment.  Going based off of feel alone I came to the following conclusions.

1.  The Typhoon is a shadow of the gun it once was.  The highest possible I had it pre-nerf was level II.  Trying it with a slightly higher damage boost (AR Amp V rather than Warfighter V) and with it upgraded to level V.  It felt like I was taking enemies down much much slower even though I had better gear and a higher level gun.

2.  To me, the Harrier feels significantly stronger, therefore I'd rather stick with it for multiple reasons.  Among them, quicker reload, less intrusive sights, more manageable recoil, no ramp up period, less weight, and it just felt more damaging to me.  The only disadvantage is that I have to get ammo more frequently, and honestly I've never been one to mind a trek to the ammo box, sometimes I'm even fortunate enough to have a friendly/generous demolisher.  My harrier is still only level II yet I still prefer it to my Typhoon V.  Does this mean the harrier deserves a nerf?  I hope not, yet I still wouldn't be surprised to see it hit as well.

3.  This is not game breaking enough for me to quit ME3 as I still rather enjoy the game, although about half of the "balance changes"  combined along with the low gear and UR drop rates in the store are definitely enough to keep me from spending any real money on any pack in the store.

4.  This gun (pre-nerf) combined with the destroyer (pre-nerf) was enough to bring me back to a gun class for some games, yet now I will almost exclusively stick to my Fury with Paladin IX, Demolisher with Harrier II, and Shadow with any light weapon with a melee mod attached as I always feel much more effective with any of those classes.

Do balances need to stop? Not necessarily IMO.  The smash nerf didn't really rustle my jimmies and I was very appreciative of the recent gun buffs.  I do see the Typhoon nerfs (yes, both of them) as completely unnecessary and counter intuitive considering the weapon weight, recoil, obtrusive sights, and required exposure due to the ramp-up period.  I would very much like to see the nerfs altogether removed (1st more for fun, 2nd for sheer effectiveness), or at least a step taken in that direction.

I really do considering spending money as a show of appreciation for the thought and effort put into the mp dlc.  Hell, I probably would have paid for all the DLC I've seen so far, although I can safely say that about half the balance changes, most like TC duration change, and typhoon nerf, make me strongly reconsider showing the ME3 MP any financial support.

Edit: Improved Spacing

Modifié par Veritas3489, 04 août 2012 - 05:34 .

[xis3]

Thoragoros wrote...

That aside, the problem with your side of the argument is that most "Good" or what people would call "Elite" players will prefer a Revenant 10 with proper mix of mods and consumables over a Typhoon up until about lvl 3 or 4, and some would even argue level 5.  That, or they go for a different class type.

yes and no, i just tried with my T-soldier, same gear as for the destroyer, it took 18-19 seconds for a solo atlas plat with revenant X and 14 with the typhoon I, it's realy a great boss killer on him and long range due to no recoil and high ACC, but, it's not realy good against mooks, it's a chore to kill things with it yea, it could have been a no problem with a second weapon, but with typhoon I, having a second weap put me in red.

So there is no way to play him with etheir only the typhoon equipped or a 11 seconds marksman.

[Rifneno]

xis3 wrote...

The Revevenant was lvl 10 and typhoon level 1, there is nothing wrong,

common 1 < uncommon 1 < rare 1 < UR 1
common 10 > uncommon 1 / rare 10 > UR 1


Even if it wasn't long range, he can dps the same at long range as show in his solo but probably not at full potential yea.

But i do agree the nerf was probably way to much, needed, but to much.

We're talking about a video with a Typhoon X, Warp Rounds IV, and ARRA III.  I don't know what you're on about a rank 1 UR.  Then again I don't even try to understand the mindset of people who think after you max rare's you should have to wait thousands of hours of gameplay to see anymore improvement.

[xis3]

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know what you're on about a rank
1 UR.  Then again I don't even try to understand the mindset of people
who think after you max rare's you should have to wait thousands of
hours of gameplay to see anymore improvement.

because mass effect is a RPG, you do know you can have the typhoon before revenant ?

rank 1 typhoon is what most people have

Modifié par xis3, 04 août 2012 - 05:53 .

[Rifneno]

xis3 wrote...

because mass effect is a RPG

I've been playing RPGs since they didn't have ****ing graphics.  I grew up on early Final Fantasy and I spent about a decade in Everquest.  So please, do tell me about RPGs.  I'm intrigued and completely in the dark in this mysterious new world.

[Gamemako]

ryoldschool wrote...

This might come as a surprise to some people but it is possible that the game engine does not do what the balance team thinks it does. I am reminded of when Eric Fagnan pm'ed me that the 6th sniper upgrade on cloak was additive. I posted that and godless paladin posted video evidence showing that that could not be true. Eric then did more checking and posted that the 6th cloak sniper upgrade was a multiplier.

So actually the fact that we have video evidence is more important than equations.

Look at the pre-nerf video from Specter. Notice that he finishes the target with 46 bullets remaining according to the display. Now do the math:

Platinum Atlas: 27422 shield, 27422 armor.

Sum damage bonuses:
1.875 shield (27.5% class skill, 30% devastator, 30% AR amp III)
2.325 armor (+45% Warp Ammo IV -- warp ammo does not apply to shields)

Now the math:
first 13 rounds: 3641.90625
remaining: 23780.09375
per-bullet damage: 312.1875
bullets to break: 77
NO PENETRATION BEFORE THIS PATCH!
total bullets used at this point: 90
budget remaining: 78

armor per-bullet (full DR): 387.1125 - 50 = 337.1125
armor per-bullet (half DR): 387.1125 - 25 = 362.1125

to kill (full DR): 82 bullets (too many)
to kill (half DR): 76 bullets (on budget)

->Fits like a glove, including the half armor DR reduction we always thought was there.

This is the max damage setup. Any different way of applying either bonus will result in lower damage, and that lower damage is clearly insufficient to kill as we observe. This confirms the mechanics as Eric explained them. That is the video evidence you seek.

Now attempt to apply it to the second video, and you'll notice that it doesn't fit. The damage is waaaaaay under spec:

first 13 real: 2731.5
remaining: 24690.5
per bullet after: 234
to break: 106
remainder: 113.5
Passthrough: 11.35
remaining rounds: 95

armor damage: 290.16 - 25 = 265.16
total damage: 25189.25
leftover: 2221.4 (8.10% remaining HP)

//EDIT: Fixed an error.

...which is why, as I said earlier, that either something else was changed, something broke, or we're looking at poor player performance passed off as poor weapon performance.

//EDIT 2: And again, formula changes are largely impossible without a patch, only stat changes are possible. That makes the formula change pretty extremely unlikely. It is possible that the gun got a stealth nerf or something broke as a result of the change, but I have not been able to model the results in any reasonable way.

Modifié par Gamemako, 04 août 2012 - 06:05 .

[xXdmndmnXx]

Gamemako wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

This might come as a surprise to some people but it is possible that the game engine does not do what the balance team thinks it does. I am reminded of when Eric Fagnan pm'ed me that the 6th sniper upgrade on cloak was additive. I posted that and godless paladin posted video evidence showing that that could not be true. Eric then did more checking and posted that the 6th cloak sniper upgrade was a multiplier.

So actually the fact that we have video evidence is more important than equations.

Look at the pre-nerf video from Specter. Notice that he finishes the target with 46 bullets remaining according to the display. Now do the math:

Platinum Atlas: 27422 shield, 27422 armor.

Sum damage bonuses:
1.875 shield (27.5% class skill, 30% devastator, 30% AR amp III)
2.325 armor (+45% Warp Ammo IV -- warp ammo does not apply to shields)

Now the math:
first 13 rounds: 3641.90625
remaining: 23780.09375
per-bullet damage: 312.1875
bullets to break: 77
NO PENETRATION BEFORE THIS PATCH!
total bullets used at this point: 90
budget remaining: 78

armor per-bullet (full DR): 387.1125 - 50 = 337.1125
armor per-bullet (half DR): 387.1125 - 25 = 362.1125

to kill (full DR): 82 bullets (too many)
to kill (half DR): 76 bullets (on budget)

->Fits like a glove, including the half armor DR reduction we always thought was there.

This is the max damage setup. Any different way of applying either bonus will result in lower damage, and that lower damage is clearly insufficient to kill as we observe. This confirms the mechanics as Eric explained them. That is the video evidence you seek.

Now attempt to apply it to the second video, and you'll notice that it doesn't fit. The damage is waaaaaay under spec:

first 13 real: 2731.5
remaining: 24690.5
per bullet after: 234
to break: 106
remainder: 113.5
Passthrough: 11.35
remaining rounds: 95

armor damage: 290.16 - 25 = 265.16
total damage: 25189.25
leftover: 2221.4 (8.10% remaining HP)

//EDIT: Fixed an error.

...which is why, as I said earlier, that either something else was changed, something broke, or we're looking at poor player performance passed off as poor weapon performance.

Thanks for working out the math involved god knows i dread math <_<
I'm thinking something else was changed or broke and not the latter (poor player performance) because we've seen a LOT of players say they noticed a huge difference so it's not an oddity out there but a general consensus.

[Rifneno]

Gamemako wrote...

...which is why, as I said earlier, that either something else was changed, something broke, or we're looking at poor player performance passed off as poor weapon performance.

For once, we agree.  Thee was more changed than we were told in the patch notes, whether intentionally or unintentionally.  And since it took me exactly as many bullets to bring down a rocket trooper's shields with the typhoon as with the locust, I'm roughly 100% sure this "50% shield/barrier/armor bonus" is not there.

[Gamemako]

xXdmndmnXx wrote...

Thanks for working out the math involved god knows i dread math <_<
I'm thinking something else was changed or broke and not the latter (poor player performance) because we've seen a LOT of players say they noticed a huge difference so it's not an oddity out there but a general consensus.

It is very possible that something broke, but I'm simply at a loss for what. I've gone through a dozen different possibilities, but I can't figure out what might have changed. Either way, the mechanics as expressed by Eric work perfectly for pre-nerf, but the new data just doesn't fit.

//EDIT: To Rifnero, that's highly unlikely. Before I did anything else, I ran a test assuming no multiplier existed at all. The results are less than the actual damage produced.

first 13 real: 1821
per bullet after: 156
remaining: 25601

to break: 165 rounds
Remaining rounds: 36
remainder after break: 139
Passthrough: 13.9
Armor damage: 193.44 - 50 = 143.44 per bullet
Total damage: 5177.74
Leftover: 22244.26 (81.12%)

(Note that I assumed the DR reduction wasn't there, but it's a difference of 36*25 = 900 damage -- not a dent in the difference.)

Modifié par Gamemako, 04 août 2012 - 06:11 .

[soldo9149]

Gamemako wrote...

xXdmndmnXx wrote...

Thanks for working out the math involved god knows i dread math <_<
I'm thinking something else was changed or broke and not the latter (poor player performance) because we've seen a LOT of players say they noticed a huge difference so it's not an oddity out there but a general consensus.

It is very possible that something broke, but I'm simply at a loss for what. I've gone through a dozen different possibilities, but I can't figure out what might have changed. Either way, the mechanics as expressed by Eric work perfectly for pre-nerf, but the new data just doesn't fit.

I think they tweaked the shield/barrier bonus it has also or they dont apply right.

Modifié par soldo9149, 04 août 2012 - 06:13 .

[drmoose00]

well, haven't used it since "nerf", since out of town.

But a couple thoughts on this.

1 - never used this weapon on anything but the destroyer. I treid it on several, and the HS would prob be OK, (but AR is not like devestator - i.e. it has a cd), but for everything else it was just so heavy that it didn't work well (for me). The demolisher just didn't work, becasue honestly the grenades were more important and the wepaon requires a lot of out of cover time, and the demolisher is pretty weak (esp mine, with no health/fitness). It seemed made for the destoyer, and gold/platinum

2 - the weapon requires a lot of out of cover time. On Bronze/Silver, obviously not a problem, and even on gold it is ok, but on platinum, this is a serious risk.

3 - it is an UR, so it is a wepaon for many (maybe the majority?) haven't even treid yet. You cannot get it easily, nad it will be really hard to level up.

4 - Like i said, haven't used it, and so cannot say whether or not it "sucks" now, but on paper, the 25% reduction in "ramp up multiplier" seems liek an extreme "nerf" for an UR that is only a few weeks old.

So the Typhoon has a really really limited character use, has a serious risk to use, and is very difficult to get and level up. Seems like the nerf is a little extreme.

And with all due respect to thsoe who say it still needs a nerf, and the "numbers" tell the story, a weapon that is useful primarily by one character (maybe 2) and requires standing out of cover for an extended period of time hardly needs a nerf. I mean, a weapon that would require you to stand in the open for 20 sec but did 10,000 damage might not be all that useful, would it?

Try and consider all the factors before saying something so .....

[Gamemako]

soldo9149 wrote...

I think they tweaked the shield/barrier bonus it has also.

Possible, but unlikely considering that nobody noticed it existed until Eric came by here and revealed it. It seems unlikely that he would first reduce the number and then tell everyone the old number.

[soldo9149]

Gamemako wrote...

soldo9149 wrote...

I think they tweaked the shield/barrier bonus it has also.

Possible, but unlikely considering that nobody noticed it existed until Eric came by here and revealed it. It seems unlikely that he would first reduce the number and then tell everyone the old number.

Yes we never knew it was on the gun, so its possible it was changed and never a reason to tell us.

[xXdmndmnXx]

soldo9149 wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

soldo9149 wrote...

I think they tweaked the shield/barrier bonus it has also.

Possible, but unlikely considering that nobody noticed it existed until Eric came by here and revealed it. It seems unlikely that he would first reduce the number and then tell everyone the old number.

Yes we never knew it was on the gun, so its possible it was changed and never a reason to tell us.

I dont know why but i cant help but get the feeling they're hiding something from us

[Thoragoros]

xis3 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know what you're on about a rank
1 UR.  Then again I don't even try to understand the mindset of people
who think after you max rare's you should have to wait thousands of
hours of gameplay to see anymore improvement.

because mass effect is a RPG, you do know you can have the typhoon before revenant ?

rank 1 typhoon is what most people have

A rank 1 typhoon is what most people will ever have.

This is why URs really should be a step above the rest, even on lower levels.

[Rokayt]

Gamemako wrote...

xXdmndmnXx wrote...

Thanks for working out the math involved god knows i dread math <_<
I'm thinking something else was changed or broke and not the latter (poor player performance) because we've seen a LOT of players say they noticed a huge difference so it's not an oddity out there but a general consensus.

It is very possible that something broke, but I'm simply at a loss for what. I've gone through a dozen different possibilities, but I can't figure out what might have changed. Either way, the mechanics as expressed by Eric work perfectly for pre-nerf, but the new data just doesn't fit.

//EDIT: To Rifnero, that's highly unlikely. Before I did anything else, I ran a test assuming no multiplier existed at all. The results are less than the actual damage produced.

first 13 real: 1821
per bullet after: 156
remaining: 25601

to break: 165 rounds
Remaining rounds: 36
remainder after break: 139
Passthrough: 13.9
Armor damage: 193.44 - 50 = 143.44 per bullet
Total damage: 5177.74
Leftover: 22244.26 (81.12%)

(Note that I assumed the DR reduction wasn't there, but it's a difference of 36*25 = 900 damage -- not a dent in the difference.)

OOORRR the atlas simply has about grenade storm of health left....
HMMMMMmmmmmmm.

[Rifneno]

Thoragoros wrote...

xis3 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know what you're on about a rank
1 UR.  Then again I don't even try to understand the mindset of people
who think after you max rare's you should have to wait thousands of
hours of gameplay to see anymore improvement.

because mass effect is a RPG, you do know you can have the typhoon before revenant ?

rank 1 typhoon is what most people have

A rank 1 typhoon is what most people will ever have.

This is why URs really should be a step above the rest, even on lower levels.

But you forget, this is an RPG!  And no RPG has ever had it so the super uber top tier elitist of elite rank stuff would be better than the 2nd to top regardless of differing levels!  Now excuse me, I'm off to play Final Fantasy VII and watch my worthless first level Knights of the Round only do a piddly 9 times the damage of my maxed out Bahamut Zero.

[xXdmndmnXx]

Rifneno wrote...

Thoragoros wrote...

xis3 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I don't know what you're on about a rank
1 UR.  Then again I don't even try to understand the mindset of people
who think after you max rare's you should have to wait thousands of
hours of gameplay to see anymore improvement.

because mass effect is a RPG, you do know you can have the typhoon before revenant ?

rank 1 typhoon is what most people have

A rank 1 typhoon is what most people will ever have.

This is why URs really should be a step above the rest, even on lower levels.

But you forget, this is an RPG!  And no RPG has ever had it so the super uber top tier elitist of elite rank stuff would be better than the 2nd to top regardless of differing levels!  Now excuse me, I'm off to play Final Fantasy VII and watch my worthless first level Knights of the Round only do a piddly 9 times the damage of my maxed out Bahamut Zero.

Lol, +10 internet points for you.

[Rifneno]

Gamemako wrote...

//EDIT: To Rifnero, that's highly unlikely. Before I did anything else, I ran a test assuming no multiplier existed at all. The results are less than the actual damage produced.

first 13 real: 1821
per bullet after: 156
remaining: 25601

to break: 165 rounds
Remaining rounds: 36
remainder after break: 139
Passthrough: 13.9
Armor damage: 193.44 - 50 = 143.44 per bullet
Total damage: 5177.74
Leftover: 22244.26 (81.12%)

(Note that I assumed the DR reduction wasn't there, but it's a difference of 36*25 = 900 damage -- not a dent in the difference.)

*shrug*  My typhoon II will do about 46 damage per shot.  All the weapon damage evolutions add up to give it 56 damage per shot.  A geth rocket trooper has 900 shields.  It took 16 shots to bring down his shields.  That's 896 damage.  I assumed the last bullet had started into the rev up damage and that's why there's a few point discrepancy.  But 840 damage, 15 shots, didn't do it.  Even if I'm off by a bullet or two, I'm not off by 50% after a frame-by-frame analysis.  Something stinks here.

[monkeybusinessIU]

I never unlocked it pre-nerf, so I never got to use it in all it's bullet hose glory.

I bring it on my N7 Destroyer, for two enemies specifically: Atlases and Geth Primes. The Piranha is more effective on everything else.

[freemyheart]

Swell.

Now can Bioware please change the classification of Gears from the Earth DLC from "Uncommon" and "Rare" to a far more appropriate (and honest) "Ultra-Rare"? Even re-classifying them as "Ultra-Rare" would still be dishonest, but it would at least stop people from thinking they are ever going to max them out without spending 100,000,000 credits. (Not an exaggeration.)

[ConstantineCS]

I had have had the Typhoon in between all the nerfs and these are my thoughts categorized by the nerfs with a summary at the end.

Pre-Nerf
Nerf: None
Thoughts: I liked the amount of damage that was being done, and thought that it was a nice addition to kill swarms of enemies through walls (Firebase Ghost was a favorite). That being said, it was by no means an End-All to every game one played. One could still be swarmed/flanked and especially shot at being outside of cover for so long. Crowds of mobs could be devestated, and the larger enemies could be shot at from fairly long distances. Overall, I was very pleased with the gun's abilities, damage, and armor penetration, but still did not think THAT highly of myself while I was armed with it.

Damage Penetration Nerf (Nerf 1)
Nerf: Penetration potential reduced from 150cm to 50cm (approximate, I will correct if incorrect)
Thoughts: This was somewhat appropriate, I mean, the only other weapons with that kind of penetration are single shot sniper rifles (to my knowledge), and it would defeat the purpose of most walls if you could have a machine gun that could go through them. So it may have been a legitimate balence issue, at that point, and I have no problem with the DP reduction, especially since it still allows for Guardian's riot shields, in addition to practically any armor (husk/cannibal plating, Brute plating, Atlas Plating) to be pierced through to damage the Health (Shields/Armor) directly. Therefore, this nerf would be a legitimate case of balancing an exploitable feature with the weapon while still retaining the function most users utilize it for.

"Rev-Up" Damage Multiplier Nerf (Nerf 2)
Nerf: The Damage Multiplier from the "Rev-Up" time was reduced from 2.0x to 1.5x (Pretty sure these values are accurate, but please correct me if I am wrong)
Thoughts: While I have not played with the Typhoon (II) with this nerf, I will go by prior experience and state how difficult it was to kill boss enemies with the Typhoon to begin with. I am not saying that it will take a great deal of time to mow down an Atlas, but with my Typhoon level, even on Gold, with moderate enhancements, it was something of a challenge to maintain the multiplier in lieu of all the other mobs hitting me. Couple that with an unusually quickly depleting clip, and the understanding that many people may not even reach the second Typhoon level as I have, and the weapon obviously has less use. This argument has less validity when one uses classes that optimize damage potential, equipment bonuses, and the aquisition of higher levels of the Typhoon, in all of these cases, the multiplier would be more noticable. (Especially considering that I haven't played through this nerf yet)

TL;DR

(Pre-Nerf): It was nice, the penetration was almost comical and potentially exploitable, everything else (from my perspective) was perfectly fine.

(Nerf 1): It was called for in my opinion, the Typhoon does not need to shoot through a damn concrete bunker, it is not a deployable .50 cal. MG. It still retains functionality with 50 cm penetration.

(Nerf 2): I haven't played with it, but from previous experience, I do think that it would stunt it's effectiveness, especially with damage optimising classes.

May Edit in the Future

[Ogrinash]

What's the DPS for low level Typhoon? Say I-IV or so? 1352 or so for X. I'm guessing around 1050-1100.

Was just testing out the Typhoon versus Reager against Banshees and Brutes (Gold). Reager pulls 1100 at X. My Typhoon II wasn't pulling anywhere near the damage Reager was doing against Armor bars; at least 2/3rds of such less by my guess; both EB and AP, no Ammo Power.

Modifié par Ogrinash, 04 août 2012 - 07:27 .

[IronRush]

Ogrinash wrote...

What's the DPS for low level Typhoon? Say I-IV or so? 1352 or so for X. I'm guessing around 1050-1100.

Was just testing out the Typhoon versus Reager against Banshees and Brutes (Gold). Reager pulls 1100 at X. My Typhoon II wasn't pulling anywhere near the damage Reager was doing against Armor bars; at least 2/3rds of such less by my guess; both EB and AP, no Ammo Power.

Reegar has a damage bonus against barriers/shields. But it is not so good against armor. Very close quarters. Very small magazine.

Typhoon is very good against armor, shield and barrier. Medium-long range. Very large magazine. Inate penetrate. Very heavy.
Typhoon still very good.

Impossible to compare both weapons. Very different .

ps: Eric, Derek... please... take a look on these topics...
http://social.biowar...ndex/13321414/1 
http://social.biowar...ndex/13408806/1 
Thanks.

Modifié par IronRush, 04 août 2012 - 07:41 .

[xXdmndmnXx]

IronRush wrote...

Ogrinash wrote...

What's the DPS for low level Typhoon? Say I-IV or so? 1352 or so for X. I'm guessing around 1050-1100.

Was just testing out the Typhoon versus Reager against Banshees and Brutes (Gold). Reager pulls 1100 at X. My Typhoon II wasn't pulling anywhere near the damage Reager was doing against Armor bars; at least 2/3rds of such less by my guess; both EB and AP, no Ammo Power.

Reegar has a damage bonus against barriers/shields. But it is not so good against armor. Very close quarters. Very small magazine.

Typhoon is very good against armor, shield and barrier. Medium-long range. Very large magazine. Inate penetrate. Very heavy.
Typhoon still very good.

Impossible to compare both weapons. Very different .

ps: Eric, Derek... please... take a look on these topics...
http://social.biowar...ndex/13321414/1 
http://social.biowar...ndex/13408806/1 
Thanks.

Yeah, you can't compare the two weapons but that last bit really miffed me. Still very good? Really?