901 réponses à ce sujet

[Sp3c7eR]

Annelos wrote...

Keep your troll-attitude to yourself. I understand what ammo-types do, I'm a regular G&P player and I do well on these difficulty levels but I'm far from taking down Atlas in 5 seconds of constant fire with any other weapon and pre-nerf Typhoon did exacly that.

Any of you guys reading this topic can show me equal speed of taking down Atlas on Platinium with any other weapon , full gear&consumables on?

You have Typhoon 1. The video showcases Typhoon 10. There is quite a big difference. No, you didn't take Atlases down in 5 seconds with a Typhoon 1 and claiming otherwise without video evidence is BS.

Onto your second point: GI Piranha build can take down Atlas just as quickly, we have seen plenty of evidence of this in platinum speedruns, do not make me go and record it cause you will be proven wrong.

Next, OP weapons in Platinum solo? I could've soloed Platinum with a Revenant if I wished too, it had nothing to do with the weapon. I used GPS mostly, Typhoon was just a boss-killer gun and made the run last 44 min instead of the 55-60 min it would've taken me with a Revenant. What gives you the right to claim it doesn't take any skill? Got any platinum solo videos to show?

Thought so.

ryoldschool wrote...

Yriss @ the date on the original video was July 24 the same date as the first nerf was announced. Specter will have to say if it was made before or after it went into effect. Whatever bioware did they reduced its damage by one half.

 

It was before penetration reduction went into effect but that didn't really have any impact on the weapon's damage. The innate 50% armor ignore was still there after that changelog.

Modifié par Sp3c7eR, 04 août 2012 - 01:34 .

[Folgor]

my personal view on something like the typhoon vs the m-76 is simple.

The typhoon is an ultra-rare and as such should be more powerful.
Now that doesn't mean it should be ridiculous, but it should be expected to be more powerful. My two cents .

[Eckswhyzed]

So it's not ok for the Typhoon to be slightly worse than the Revenant (I don't think so personally) but it's perfectly fine for the Piranha to be much better than the Wraith and Talon?

[Cull58]

All these people who dont even own the gun should just shut up tbh. Coming in here saying you are ok with the nerf even though you do not own the gun. You don't know what you're talking about so stay out of it.

[ryoldschool]

^ I don't understand your post. Its horrible that they took a great assault rifle ( of which only a few are even good) and then within two weeks they cut it in half. And from their statements I don't think they even realize the magnitude of their nerf.

As far as the wraith goes, yes, that is a great fail also- it should be a lot better, IMO. But the way they nerfed the typhoon, I don't have a lot of confidence in their adjustments being reasonable.

[FelisChausMD]

Return Typhoon to his original state and don't mess with Piranha. Those are N7 weapons - they should be best weapons in the Galaxy. I prefer weapons to be amazing than utterly useless.

[steveraptor]

field tests proves that the typhoon after nerf is piece of trash against armor, honestly.
Full magazine, destroyer, 134 bullets, takes around 2 armor bars of atlas.
i cant even take an atlas down with full ammo (pre patch u could kill an atlas with 2-mags of 134 bullets).
It barely do any damage against other targets, it sucks, and no 50% inherit armor dmg bonus helps whatsoever.

tested on gold.

Modifié par steveraptor, 04 août 2012 - 02:27 .

[Thoragoros]

steveraptor wrote...

field tests proves that the typhoon after nerf is piece of trash against armor, honestly.
Full magazine, destroyer, 134 bullets, takes around 2 armor bars of atlas.
i cant even take an atlas down with full ammo (pre patch u could kill an atlas with 2-mags of 134 bullets).
It barely do any damage against other targets, it sucks, and no 50% inherit armor dmg bonus helps whatsoever.

tested on gold.

This.

[WaffleCrab]

my thoughts on the typhoon. why is it an ultra rare to begin with if you gotta nerf it like that and still keep the weight?

[xXdmndmnXx]

Thoragoros wrote...

steveraptor wrote...

field tests proves that the typhoon after nerf is piece of trash against armor, honestly.
Full magazine, destroyer, 134 bullets, takes around 2 armor bars of atlas.
i cant even take an atlas down with full ammo (pre patch u could kill an atlas with 2-mags of 134 bullets).
It barely do any damage against other targets, it sucks, and no 50% inherit armor dmg bonus helps whatsoever.

tested on gold.

This.

This is what i've been trying to say, sure sure Math is "Irrefutable" but the in-game results differ by quite a lot.

[Fixx21]

my thoughts on the typhoon. **** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Buff Typhoon !!

[OhPa2]

I'd like to test the Typhoon and provide some feedback but I don't have one.   And based on how things have gone for me since MP came out it's not likely I'll have one soon.

By the time I get a weapon or character that people make a big fuss about, it's been nerfed.  Thanks anyway.

[Stinja]

Annelos wrote...

taking down Atlas in 5 seconds of constant fire with any other weapon and pre-nerf Typhoon did exacly that.

Any of you guys reading this topic can show me equal speed of taking down Atlas on Platinium with any other weapon , full gear&consumables on?

Ask and you shall recieve:

www.youtube.com/watch

and:

www.youtube.com/watch

To be clear we're not talking about "5 seconds", but comparing times to around Sp3c7eR's confirmed 6.133 second video correct?  (and less than 12.25 seconds post-nerf)

Modifié par Stinja, 04 août 2012 - 03:41 .

[Demon Velsper]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Testing always involves using it with a variety of classes.

Ever considered doing that BEFORE you release new weapons? Cause it seems your testing is not so thourough after all, considering you always have to nerf anything you release.

[Gamemako]

Rifneno wrote...

*shrug*  My typhoon II will do about 46 damage per shot.  All the weapon damage evolutions add up to give it 56 damage per shot.  A geth rocket trooper has 900 shields.  It took 16 shots to bring down his shields.  That's 896 damage.  I assumed the last bullet had started into the rev up damage and that's why there's a few point discrepancy.  But 840 damage, 15 shots, didn't do it.  Even if I'm off by a bullet or two, I'm not off by 50% after a frame-by-frame analysis.  Something stinks here.

Hmm. Let's say that the protection bonus is tied  to the ramp-up. If that is the case, it could be 50% of the ramp-up bonus instead of 50% flat. That would explain the missing variable as well. The result of that would be roughly as follows:

first 13 real: 2276.25
remaining: 25145.75
per bullet after: 195
to break: 129
passthrough: 0.925
remaining rounds: 72
armor damage: 241.8 - 25 = 216.8
total damage: 15610.525
leftover: 11811.475 (43.07%)

Total damage is still too high, but it's closer.  The remaining rounds after shield break roughly agrees with the observed result (seemed to be around 70 in the video). Going further to the second clip in the second clip (ha-ha):

second 13 per-bullet: 150.09615384615384615384615384615
second 13: 1951.25
remaining: 9860.2225
to kill: 46
total: 59
observed: 62

Relatively close agreement. Note that my estimates are not totally perfect here, but they're very close, and that's all we're really looking for. A stray bullet here or there (as you see happen in the video) will make the difference.

That would be a 37.5% nerf instead of a 25% nerf, and that is in closest agreement with the observed result. In relation to the Rev, the Typhoon therefore deals 1127.34375 max DPS compared to the Rev's 861.25 with a Typhoon I dealing 901.875 DPS on the top end (i.e. exactly what people originally believed the Typhoon X to deal after the nerf). So yeah, Typhoon is still quite powerful, but the nerf was larger than expected. I wonder if BioWare realized this...

[Ponuto]

Eric Fagnan 

We've done a lot of internal tests on the N7 Typhoon comparing it to other assault rifles and other weapons, and even with the recent nerf it is still incredibly powerful. One of the reasons for this is that the weapon has an inherit 50% damage bonus versus armor, shields, and barriers. This far outclasses other weapons in terms of damage bonuses against resistances. The Revenant, for example, does not get this bonus and does regular damage to armor, shields, and barriers.

As always, we'll keep an eye on the balance of the N7 Typhoon, but if you have the weapon please test it out in game against different enemies to see how it feels. The numbers can often be deceiving so it's difficult to tell how effective a weapon is on paper.

I do understand that that in paper it seems superior to the revena if you were to compare the 2 weapons at level 10 but that should be a normal conclusion nonetheless, the diference is so small that rigth now, the typhoon doen't deserve the UR category.

I was very happy when i first received the typhoon a day after the second nerf. I thougth it would still be very good so i went to try it on a solo silver match. There i got a lonely atlas and it took me 3 clips to kill it with my destroyer speced for max damage output. I was carrying the penetration mod and increased damage barrel with no equipement. I dont know if the typhoon improves exponentialy with the level but with any other ultra rare at level 1 that atlas would have died faster.

I understand that balancing a weapon is hard but UR are meant to be the best and the nerf the typhoon received was IMO too much to be justified.

Modifié par Ponuto, 04 août 2012 - 04:14 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Gamemako wrote...

->Fits like a glove, including the half armor DR reduction we always thought was there.

Have to interject here. The multiplier as given is a 50% to total damage against defense (like on Overload). Warp ammo is supposed to have a DR reduction. This should also apply to shields and barriers.

Total Damage = Base * (Warm up Multiplier (2 pre nerf/1.5 post nerf)) * (Addiative bonuses) * (Armor/Shields/Barrier Modifier (1.5))

Also I don't quite know if you the bonus damage from Warp ammo adds to the total damage the multiplier adds onto. In that case you'd have to add it separately. Keep in mind that the warm-up multiplier probably adds to base damage (like TC 6 Sniper Damage).
Which would turn it into:

 Total Damage = Base * Warm up Multiplier (2 pre nerf/1.5 post nerf) * (1 + Addiative bonuses) * (1 + Armor/Shields/Barrier Modifier (1.5)) + Base * Warm up multiplier * (1+Ammo Modifier)

EDIT: So it takes 13 rounds the Typhoon works at maximum damage? And how do you get to that damage for those 13 rounds, could you show the math?

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 04 août 2012 - 04:36 .

[Ubergrog]

Okay, I am going to use my latent telekentic powers to try and sum up the general gist of the community opinion (yes, I know this makes no sense, read the post, not my strange use of telekenetic.)

1. The Typhoon is considered by Bioware to be the most powerful AR in the game, despite it's current weight.

2. taking into account people who don't have the gun, but like to watch UR weapons get nerfed, 99% of the players disagree.

3. Testing suggests that there is something more then just the damage multiplier that was reduced in power.

4. Not a single Bioware representative in this forum has explained why UR weapons are being held to a Rare standard, despite the incredible difficulty in obtaining these weapons. It took 14 PSP's of nothing, and a single Specter pack to get my typhoon up from 6 to 7. I haven't used it since 5 because the Particle Rifle outperforms it on gold and platinum now.

5. People enjoy a weapon that can mop up the larger targets instead of sitting there and poking it for five minutes, taking this away creates a storm of angst (Piranha users are still holding their breath).

6. pre-nerf, it was best used on the following classes: Turian Soldier, Krogan Soldier, Human Soldier (both flavors), Demolisher Engineer, Vorcha Sentinel, Quarian Male Engineer, Geth Infiltrator.

Post-nerf, it is now best used on the following classes: Turian Soldier, Human Soldier (both flavors). Other classes have better weight to damage options.

7. Everyone views Homogenization (All weapons being slowly pushed to doing the exact same damage as their counterparts) as a really bad idea.

8. The fans are asking for the multiplier to be increased between 1.75-2.0.


Final summation: Why do you balance post release if you do in-house testing already?

Modifié par Ubergrog, 04 août 2012 - 04:19 .

[Gamemako]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Have to interject here. The multiplier as given is a 50% to total damage against defense (like on Overload). Warp ammo is supposed to have an DR reduction. This should also apply to shields and barriers.

Total Damage = Base * (Warm up Multiplier (2 pre nerf/1.5 post nerf)) * (Addiative bonuses) * (Armor/Shields/Barrier Modifier (1.5))

Also I don't quite know if you the bonus damage from Warp ammo adds to the total damage the multiplier adds onto. In that case you'd have to add it separately. Keep in mind that the warm-up multiplier probably adds to base damage (like TC 6 Sniper Damage).
Which would turn it into:

 Total Damage = Base * Warm up Multiplier (2 pre nerf/1.5 post nerf) * (1 + Addiative bonuses) * (1 + Armor/Shields/Barrier Modifier (1.5)) + Base * Warm up multiplier * (1+Ammo Modifier)

1) Warp Ammo does not apply any bonus damage to shields. You are welcome to test this yourself; I provided an easy test a few pages back if you doubt me.

2) Warp Ammo does not reduce armor DR. AP Ammo does, but Warp Ammo does not.

3) ...but your first formula is still correct. Total damage is indeed base * sum additives * ramp-up multi * protection multi. Protection multi just seems to be tied to the the ramp-up multi.

4) MP ammo powers, as far as any testing suggests, are additive. Peddroelmz did some testing with SP ammo powers previously and found that they were effectively additive (though he said they were applied separately -- hard to tell here). Based on the data here, it would seem that it is purely additive: were it not affected by the ramp-up multipliers, damage would be ~10% less, and that would make all results unlikely.

[Flambirex]

Demon Velsper wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Testing always involves using it with a variety of classes.

Ever considered doing that BEFORE you release new weapons? Cause it seems your testing is not so thourough after all, considering you always have to nerf anything you release.

Exactly my thoughts. It's not like the players have any special voodoo that can increase a gun's power beyond what Bioware can do (beyond coalesced edits, and those are so rare to the point of being statistical anomalies).

[Cull58]

Flambirex wrote...

Demon Velsper wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Testing always involves using it with a variety of classes.

Ever considered doing that BEFORE you release new weapons? Cause it seems your testing is not so thourough after all, considering you always have to nerf anything you release.

Exactly my thoughts. It's not like the players have any special voodoo that can increase a gun's power beyond what Bioware can do (beyond coalesced edits, and those are so rare to the point of being statistical anomalies).

BW clearly just play bronze and silver, if indeed they play at all. I doubt they are very good at the game compared to the community. Not voodoo, just skill.

[Gamemako]

Ubergrog wrote...

1. The Typhoon is considered by Bioware to be the most powerful AR in the game, despite it's current weight.

2. taking into account people who don't have the gun, but like to watch UR weapons get nerfed, 99% of the players disagree.

3. Testing suggests that there is something more then just the damage multiplier that was reduced in power.

4. Not a single Bioware representative in this forum has explained why UR weapons are being held to a Rare standard, despite the incredible difficulty in obtaining these weapons. It took 14 PSP's of nothing, and a single Specter pack to get my typhoon up from 6 to 7. I haven't used it since 5 because the Particle Rifle outperforms it on gold and platinum now.

5. People enjoy a weapon that can mop up the larger targets instead of sitting there and poking it for five minutes, taking this away creates a storm of angst (Piranha users are still holding their breath).

6. pre-nerf, it was best used on the following classes: Turian Soldier, Krogan Soldier, Human Soldier (both flavors), Demolisher Engineer, Vorcha Sentinel, Quarian Male Engineer, Geth Infiltrator.

Post-nerf, it is now best used on the following classes: Turian Soldier, Human Soldier (both flavors). Other classes have better weight to damage options.

7. Everyone views Homogenization (All weapons being slowly pushed to doing the exact same damage as their counterparts) as a really bad idea.

8. The fans are asking for the multiplier to be increased between 1.75-2.0.


Final summation: Why do you balance post release if you do in-house testing already?

1. Probably.

2. How you people convince yourselves of this nonsense is beyond me. Stop making absurd claims to attempt to invalidate their opinions.

3. Correct.

4. They aren't. In fact, it's mainly the overpowered DLC weapons in both tiers that make it difficult for some people to get a grasp on the original tiering mechanics. Download a spreadsheet and delete the guns from the most recent two DLCs. You'll immediately see that your assessment is incorrect. The Paladin, for example, quite well stomps the earlier pistol. The difference is just that the recent DLCs have been accompanied by... let's say some very eager hearts over at BioWare.

5. As it turns out, people really like win buttons.

6. It was best used on pretty much anyone as it had the highest DPS in the game, even more ridiculous than the Piranha.

7. Everyone views straw man as evil! Bad straw man! Bad!

8. And most of them should be ignored for having no grasp on any mechanics at all and/or for just wanting an overpowered gun (i.e. they don't really want the gun, they just want the enemies nerfed so they can progressquest harder).

You know, if people really liked the gun, they'd try to use it despite the difference. It's funny, but its seems that nobody actually likes the gun at all. They whine incessantly about it. They think it's big and ugly and gets in the way and handles funny. They hate it. They just want their overpowered back, and for that, they deserve absolutely nothing. <_<

[Poison_Berrie]

Gamemako wrote...

1) Warp Ammo does not apply any bonus damage to shields. You are welcome to test this yourself; I provided an easy test a few pages back if you doubt me.

I wasn't specifically talking about shields.

2) Warp Ammo does not reduce armor DR. AP Ammo does, but Warp Ammo does not.

According to Tangsters sheet and several other sources (who probably pull this from the Coalesced) it's supposed to debuff armor. 50% for level 3.

3) ...but your first formula is still correct. Total damage is indeed base * sum additives * ramp-up multi * protection multi. Protection multi just seems to be tied to the the ramp-up multi.

Okay since you were talking about a 50% reduction to DR, which as far as we know it doesn't have, but which Warp ammo is supposed to apply.
So the multiplier only starts adding once the gun has ramped-up.

4) MP ammo powers, as far as any testing suggests, are additive. Peddroelmz did some testing with SP ammo powers previously and found that they were effectively additive (though he said they were applied separately -- hard to tell here). Based on the data here, it would seem that it is purely additive: were it not affected by the ramp-up multipliers, damage would be ~10% less, and that would make all results unlikely.

My point was whether the defense multiplier also adds the ammo power. In most other cases it won't matter, but when a gun has an innate multiplier against certain defense types the question becomes whether you add ammo damage seperatly or it counts towards max damage.