901 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamemako]

Ubergrog wrote...

Gamemako, there is no evidence you even have the typhoon or any of the weapons. You don't have a manifest. As far as I can tell, you're chucking numbers at the wall and hoping they stick.

I already posted a picture of my Typhoon. I could post a video of me carrying one. It hardly matters. The numbers are what they are, and you want to simply find something unrelated to distract.

I'm not hooking up the manifest, so don't ask.

Ubergrog wrote...

IF your numbers are correct, the Typhoon's DPS is virtually the same as the Harrier and PPR (in the 1000-1100 range). This is not something to be proud of.

OK, here are the numbers.

Harrier:
Burst DPS : 1187
Sustained DPS, base clip: 729.2
Sustained DPS, ext. clip: 880.08
Sustained DPS (incl. RC), base clip: 908.19
Sustained DPS (incl. RC), ext. clip: 1014.8
Time to expend all ammo (base clip): 16.44s-19.94s
Time to expend all ammo (extended clip): 15.10-17.20s
Weight: 1.25

Prothean Particle Rifle:
Burst DPS (min): 344
Burst DPS (max): 1376
Warm up time: 2s
Sustained DPS: Unknown. Probably quite low due to cooldown mechanic, but I don't have exact numbers. Depends on clip size as well. If we assume it cools as fast as it fires and gets the damage bonus for the whole time, it would be 688 DPS. No matter how you slice it, the sustained DPS on the PPR is likely to be much lower then the DPS on on other guns.
Time to expend all ammo: infinite
Weight: 1.4

Typhoon:
Burst DPS (min): 231.25
Burst DPS (max): 1127
Burst DPS (avg, base clip): 1043.99
Burst DPS (avg, ext. clip): 1079.87
Warm-up time: 1.5s
Sustained DPS, base clip: 805.02
Sustained DPS (incl. RC), base clip: 918.89
Sustained DPS (incl. RC),  ext. clip: 1002.71
Time to expend all ammo (base clip): 65.27s-73.12s
Time to expend all ammo (ext. clip): 61.44s-66.15s
Weight: 2.0

Revenant X (rare):
Burst DPS: 861.25
Sustained DPS, base clip: 565.27
Sustained DPS, ext. clip: 667.17
Sustained DPS (incl. RC), base clip: 694.48
Sustained DPS (incl. RC), ext. clip: 769.87
Time to expend all ammo (base clip):  44.91s-54.33s
Weight: 1.25

The Harrier has very high burst and sustained damage (still surprised it and the Reegar weren't nerfed). It also runs out of ammo twice as fast as the alternative. The Typhoon has slightly lower DPS than the Harrier on both a burst and sustained basis, though it has a whole lot more ammo and can hold a position for more than twice four times as long without needing to head to an ammo box. PPR  can deal the highest burst damage, but only in very specific situations. It also pays for it by being as weak as a Rev on a sustained basis. The Rev is pretty well trounced by all 3 ultra-rare options.

It is all your good fortune that the 50% bonus was broken down to 25% (possibly on accident). Without it, the Typhoon would still trounce everything but the nerbait Piranha and Reegar. Now the Typhoon is in a place where it looks like it's "with the pack" because the pack has been dragged forward by quite a bit.

//EDIT: Fixed Harrier and Rev oversight.

//EDIT 2: Fixed Harrier ammo capacity error.

Modifié par Gamemako, 04 août 2012 - 07:31 .

[Fortack]

Annelos wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

You have Typhoon 1. The video showcases Typhoon 10. There is quite a big difference. No, you didn't take Atlases down in 5 seconds with a Typhoon 1 and claiming otherwise without video evidence is BS.

I've claimed that pre-nerf Typhoon 10 with ammo&gear bonuses did that and I still think it's preposterous.

Well, I wish you luck with the Typhoon when a couple Phantoms or Hunters say hello - for example. It's "meh" at best and there are many weapons that are easier to use, kill those enemies quicker, and don't have any noticeable impact on casting potential. Are you saying those weapons are "preposterous" too?

The only thing the pre-nerf Typhoon was good at was killing big, fat, slow-moving and hard-to-miss boss units (and, to a lesser extent, on a couple maps that force the enemies to cluster, like Glacier) - at least in my experience and I haven't seen any evidence proving otherwise. IMO a weapon that is exceptional at handling one or a couple (rare) units and is OK (at best) at killing the other 90% on the field is quite balanced (esp when you look at its weight).

Furthermore, taking out an Atlas in 6 seconds with the (pre-nerf) Typhoon at its max RoF doesn't tell the whole story. When you add the time it takes to switch weapons, warm up, reload, and switch back, that time is (at least) doubled. In Sp3c7eR's video he only used the Typhoon to kill bosses b/c it was worth switching weapons for. I haven't properly tested the nerfed Typhoon (and only have it at level one or two) but I'm quite sure sticking to the GPS (or some other powerful (and much more versatile) weapon) is going to take out an Atlas (or anything else) faster (and easier).

It's also worth noting that this is based on the designated Typhoon user (the N7 Soldier) - the pre-nerf Typhoon already was quite bad when used on pretty much any other character in the game. The nerfed one looks like a gimmick weapon for those who are determined to use a LMG and don't care about the consequential poor combat efficiency. That doesn't sound like a "balanced" UR weapon to me

[Lord Chun]

It dose seem to take out all enemy units quite quickly when I use it. My suggestion would be to take the bonus to armor/shield/barriers away and take the ramp up (and ramp up bonuse) away as well and make it fire like a regular AR. While giving it a damage buff some where between the harrier and reverent. That's my idea I know it won't be liked by the community but it would take some of the OP ness away.

[Mgamerz]

It has armor piercing that makes you able to shoot through walls to a slight degree and also do more damage to boss units. And you still want it to have even more damage?
And you still want it to do normal damage.
The logic!

[Stinja]

Gamemako wrote...

Revenant X (rare):
Burst DPS: 861.25
Sustained DPS, base clip: 565.27
Sustained DPS, ext. clip: 667.17
Sustained DPS (incl. RC), base clip: 694.48
Sustained DPS (incl. RC), ext. clip: 769.87
Time to expend all ammo (base clip):  44.91s-54.33s
Weight: 1.25

For people (like myself) that are unlikely to get their URs to X, here's the numbers for level I:

Harrier I:
Burst DPS:  973.5
Sustained DPS: 598.0
Sustained DPS (incl. RC): 745.9
Weight: 1.75

Typhoon I:
Burst DPS:  711.7
Sustained DPS: 536.4
Sustained DPS (incl. RC): 614.8
Weight: 2.5

[Gamemako]

Stinja wrote...

For people (like myself) that are unlikely to get their URs to X, here's the numbers for level I:

I'm not totally sure where those numbers came from (the sustained ones don't seem right), but you can get the correct numbers by just taking mine and multiplying them by 0.8. All guns are at approximately 80% of their level X damage at level I.

//EDIT: Harrier ones are right. Typhoon numbers look off.

//EDIT 2: You dropped the protection bonus on the burst and just included max. Other numbers... nope, I got nothin.

Modifié par Gamemako, 04 août 2012 - 07:44 .

[IrishDeath420]

To me the bottom line is this. Most people liked the Typhoon the way it was. Most people don't like the Typhoon the way it is. This game is supposed to be about having fun. I was having fun with it before, but not now.

[demondioma]

Gamemako wrote...

Stinja wrote...

For people (like myself) that are unlikely to get their URs to X, here's the numbers for level I:

I'm not totally sure where those numbers came from (the sustained ones don't seem right), but you can get the correct numbers by just taking mine and multiplying them by 0.8. All guns are at approximately 80% of their level X damage at level I.

//EDIT: Harrier ones are right. Typhoon numbers look off.

//EDIT 2: You dropped the protection bonus on the burst and just included max. Other numbers... nope, I got nothin.

The numbers are taken from the manifest. Do you really own one if you don't recognize those numbers?

[WaffleCrab]

Ubergrog wrote...

Okay, I am going to use my latent telekentic powers to try and sum up the general gist of the community opinion (yes, I know this makes no sense, read the post, not my strange use of telekenetic.)

1. The Typhoon is considered by Bioware to be the most powerful AR in the game, despite it's current weight.

2. taking into account people who don't have the gun, but like to watch UR weapons get nerfed, 99% of the players disagree.

3. Testing suggests that there is something more then just the damage multiplier that was reduced in power.

4. Not a single Bioware representative in this forum has explained why UR weapons are being held to a Rare standard, despite the incredible difficulty in obtaining these weapons. It took 14 PSP's of nothing, and a single Specter pack to get my typhoon up from 6 to 7. I haven't used it since 5 because the Particle Rifle outperforms it on gold and platinum now.

5. People enjoy a weapon that can mop up the larger targets instead of sitting there and poking it for five minutes, taking this away creates a storm of angst (Piranha users are still holding their breath).

6. pre-nerf, it was best used on the following classes: Turian Soldier, Krogan Soldier, Human Soldier (both flavors), Demolisher Engineer, Vorcha Sentinel, Quarian Male Engineer, Geth Infiltrator.

Post-nerf, it is now best used on the following classes: Turian Soldier, Human Soldier (both flavors). Other classes have better weight to damage options.

7. Everyone views Homogenization (All weapons being slowly pushed to doing the exact same damage as their counterparts) as a really bad idea.

8. The fans are asking for the multiplier to be increased between 1.75-2.0.


Final summation: Why do you balance post release if you do in-house testing already?

I think i know why, i managed to find a top secret photo of their inhouse testing being done.

[Thoragoros]

IrishDeath420 wrote...

To me the bottom line is this. Most people liked the Typhoon the way it was. Most people don't like the Typhoon the way it is. This game is supposed to be about having fun. I was having fun with it before, but not now.

This.  So much this.

[Gamemako]

demondioma wrote...

The numbers are taken from the manifest. Do you really own one if you don't recognize those numbers?

You mean they're taken from a browser extension made by someone who doesn't know what the actual numbers are (and you wouldn't expect him to when prior to Eric's post we had no idea this modifier existed in the first place).

[Rokayt]

Annelos wrote...

destroying Atlas in several seconds

Videos exist of people doing so with the pirhana, in 10 seconds.

Shaded pheonix has one of her destroying an atlas within a single revenant magazine, much faster then that soloist could on her own.


Simply because you haven't found tactics that allow that result, does not mean they exist.

[demondioma]

Gamemako wrote...

demondioma wrote...

The numbers are taken from the manifest. Do you really own one if you don't recognize those numbers?

You mean they're taken from a browser extension made by someone who doesn't know what the actual numbers are (and you wouldn't expect him to when prior to Eric's post we had no idea this modifier existed in the first place).

Why are you evading my question instead of just letting people see your manifest?

The Typhoon was a good weapon at first, now... just better than average, which is disappointing for an UR.

Modifié par demondioma, 04 août 2012 - 08:10 .

[Eckswhyzed]

demondioma wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

demondioma wrote...

The numbers are taken from the manifest. Do you really own one if you don't recognize those numbers?

You mean they're taken from a browser extension made by someone who doesn't know what the actual numbers are (and you wouldn't expect him to when prior to Eric's post we had no idea this modifier existed in the first place).

Why are you evading my question instead of just letting people see your manifest?

Seeing as gamemako is actually presenting math, I don't care if he's only got a ****ing Avenger 2. 

[Poison_Berrie]

Gamemako wrote...

Er, so I'm not sure what you're talking about then.

Yeah, neither did I know what you were talking, when you brought it up originally, since I wasn't talking about the Warp damage specifically in regards to Shields. More just a general how does it behave.

Armor weakness and armor reduction are two different stats in the game files. Armor reduction actually affects the DR from armor. Last I checked, the understanding is that armor weakness refers to the ability to crack off armor plates with ease (e.g. shoulder plates on a Brute). It is possible that this is not the case, and it should not be terribly difficult to test since a Brute appears on Wave 2 of Gold Reapers.

Weaken armor on Warp or Cryo is also a reduction to the targets DR. I don't think this is any different.

Poison_Berrie wrote...

There is a variable in the files called mindamagereduction. It was previously interpreted as 50% reduction to armor DR. Since this variable apparently is not the 1.5x/1.25x multiplier, it seems likely that the original interpretation is correct.

But yeah, based on Rifnero's finding of no shield multiplier when using only the first rounds, the multipliers are probably both ramp-up.

What's the value of that variable? 
So that would mean it has both an inherent DR reduction and an armor multiplier.

I understand the issue you raise, but based on specter's pre-nerf video, it is unlikely that the ammo power is not being multiplied. If it were not, each bullet's damage would be reduced by 21.853125.  Because we're already about at the limit to the number of rounds it will take, we would have to find +20 damage somewhere else. The only alternative explanation would be that Warp Ammo's armor weakness not only applies in an unexpected way but also stacks directly with the Typhoon's innate armor reduction. It's not impossible, but it sure is unlikely.

Given that Warp 3 does 50% armor weakness, I'm taking a guess and say Warp 4 reduces 75% of DR. 
What's the DR rate on Platinum?

@Demondioma: Not everyone is willing to participate in such things.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 04 août 2012 - 08:17 .

[Gamemako]

Rokayt wrote...

Shaded pheonix has one of her destroying an atlas within a single revenant magazine, much faster then that soloist could on her own.

Impossible. A Geth Infiltrator with an infinite tactical cloak bonus and the proxy mine bonus would put out 32970.24 damage over the extended clip of a Rev X. The's more than 20,000 damage short, and that's assuming some magical ammo power that affects all types of protection., and you obviously won't get a full clip out of a Rev while under TC's damage bonus.

You might be able to do in a Silver Atlas in one clip, but not Gold and certainly not Platinum.

demondioma wrote...

Why are you evading my question instead of just letting people see your manifest?

I already answered that question. I will not post my manifest. I have shown that I have a Typhoon III. If you don't like it, then that's just tough. If you want a detailed explanation of how I came to the numbers I posted, I will do so. I will not sit around and entertain your adoration of fallacies.

[WaffleCrab]

Gamemako wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Shaded pheonix has one of her destroying an atlas within a single revenant magazine, much faster then that soloist could on her own.

Impossible. A Geth Infiltrator with an infinite tactical cloak bonus and the proxy mine bonus would put out 32970.24 damage over the extended clip of a Rev X. The's more than 20,000 damage short, and that's assuming some magical ammo power that affects all types of protection., and you obviously won't get a full clip out of a Rev while under TC's damage bonus.

You might be able to do in a Silver Atlas in one clip, but not Gold and certainly not Platinum.

demondioma wrote...

Why are you evading my question instead of just letting people see your manifest?

I already answered that question. I will not post my manifest. I have shown that I have a Typhoon III. If you don't like it, then that's just tough. If you want a detailed explanation of how I came to the numbers I posted, I will do so. I will not sit around and entertain your adoration of fallacies.

Private profiles FTW. keeping those peeping toms at bay.

[Gamemako]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

What's the value of that variable? 
So that would mean it has both an inherent DR reduction and an armor multiplier.

Yes, that is what I believe to be the case at this time. The variable has a value of 0.5.

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Given that Warp 3 does 50% armor weakness, I'm taking a guess and say Warp 4 reduces 75% of DR. 
What's the DR rate on Platinum?

50, just like Gold.

I can do some testing with Cryo Ammo to know for certain what Armor Weakness actually does.

[demondioma]

@Gamemako
You are too easy to mess with :[
What's your reason for wanting to nerf weapons that many players like? Just because? I might as well suggest nerfing everything that's better than the M-8 Avenger. I actually support URs being superior.

Modifié par demondioma, 04 août 2012 - 08:47 .

[Poison_Berrie]

I'm pretty sure that's the purpose. Cryoblast and regular Warp have it as well.

[Yajuu Omoi]

Gamemako wrote...

demondioma wrote...

Why are you evading my question instead of just letting people see your manifest?

I already answered that question. I will not post my manifest. I have shown that I have a Typhoon III. If you don't like it, then that's just tough. If you want a detailed explanation of how I came to the numbers I posted, I will do so. I will not sit around and entertain your adoration of fallacies.

Gamemako, I've seen you here on countless threads always doing your best to troll everyone. Just stop, its become pathetic.

Here are the numbers for the Revenant X w/ Stabil;ity Damp and AP Mod, PPR X with Extended Clip and AP Mod, and the Typhoon X with Extended Barrel and AP Mod.
And these are NOT from my Manifest, they are from IN GAME. I don't even have a PPR, so that simply proves that.

                  Revenant X   |   PPR X   |   Typhoon X
Clip: ----------- 60 ------------ 180 --------- 100
Reserve: ----- 480 ---------- ~~~ --------- 500
Accuracy: ---- 15 ------------ 40 ----------- 30
Recoil: -------- 0.2 ----------- 0 ------------ 1.1
Burst DPS: -- 861.3 -------- 1226.9 ---- 1109.6
Sustained: -- 656.3 -------- 895.3 ------- 836.2
vs. Armor: ---- 441 ---------- 725 --------- 694
Reload: ------- 2.9 ----------- 5 ------------ 2.9
Penetration: -- 1.10 ---------- 1.10 ------ 1.35


And look, The PPR, and Typhoon (both URs) outclass the Revneant (Rare)..on EVERYTHING.

[Cull58]

Annelos wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

You have Typhoon 1. The video showcases
Typhoon 10. There is quite a big difference. No, you didn't take Atlases
down in 5 seconds with a Typhoon 1 and claiming otherwise without video
evidence is BS.

I've claimed that pre-nerf Typhoon 10 with ammo&gear bonuses did that and I still think it's preposterous.

Gamemako wrote...

Ubergrog wrote...

1. The Typhoon is considered by Bioware to be the most powerful AR in the game, despite it's current weight.

2. taking into account people who don't have the gun, but like to watch UR weapons get nerfed, 99% of the players disagree.

3. Testing suggests that there is something more then just the damage multiplier that was reduced in power.

4. Not a single Bioware representative in this forum has explained why UR weapons are being held to a Rare standard, despite the incredible difficulty in obtaining these weapons. It took 14 PSP's of nothing, and a single Specter pack to get my typhoon up from 6 to 7. I haven't used it since 5 because the Particle Rifle outperforms it on gold and platinum now.

5. People enjoy a weapon that can mop up the larger targets instead of sitting there and poking it for five minutes, taking this away creates a storm of angst (Piranha users are still holding their breath).

6. pre-nerf, it was best used on the following classes: Turian Soldier, Krogan Soldier, Human Soldier (both flavors), Demolisher Engineer, Vorcha Sentinel, Quarian Male Engineer, Geth Infiltrator.

Post-nerf, it is now best used on the following classes: Turian Soldier, Human Soldier (both flavors). Other classes have better weight to damage options.

7. Everyone views Homogenization (All weapons being slowly pushed to doing the exact same damage as their counterparts) as a really bad idea.

8. The fans are asking for the multiplier to be increased between 1.75-2.0.


Final summation: Why do you balance post release if you do in-house testing already?

1. Probably.

2. How you people convince yourselves of this nonsense is beyond me. Stop making absurd claims to attempt to invalidate their opinions.

3. Correct.

4. They aren't. In fact, it's mainly the overpowered DLC weapons in both tiers that make it difficult for some people to get a grasp on the original tiering mechanics. Download a spreadsheet and delete the guns from the most recent two DLCs. You'll immediately see that your assessment is incorrect. The Paladin, for example, quite well stomps the earlier pistol. The difference is just that the recent DLCs have been accompanied by... let's say some very eager hearts over at BioWare.

5. As it turns out, people really like win buttons.

6. It was best used on pretty much anyone as it had the highest DPS in the game, even more ridiculous than the Piranha.

7. Everyone views straw man as evil! Bad straw man! Bad!

8. And most of them should be ignored for having no grasp on any mechanics at all and/or for just wanting an overpowered gun (i.e. they don't really want the gun, they just want the enemies nerfed so they can progressquest harder).

You know, if people really liked the gun, they'd try to use it despite the difference. It's funny, but its seems that nobody actually likes the gun at all. They whine incessantly about it. They think it's big and ugly and gets in the way and handles funny. They hate it. They just want their overpowered back, and for that, they deserve absolutely nothing. <_<

+1 Gameko.

It's incredible how the "beloved gun" that "wasn't OP" suddenly becomes treated like a garbage when it's damage output gets less Godly than it was before...

If a gun isnt op and it gets a damage nerf, obviously its going to be treated like garbage. Are you stupid?

[Thoragoros]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Gamemako, I've seen you here on countless threads always doing your best to troll everyone. Just stop, its become pathetic.

Here are the numbers for the Revenant X w/ Stabil;ity Damp and AP Mod, PPR X with Extended Clip and AP Mod, and the Typhoon X with Extended Barrel and AP Mod.
And these are NOT from my Manifest, they are from IN GAME. I don't even have a PPR, so that simply proves that.

                  Revenant X   |   PPR X   |   Typhoon X
Clip: ----------- 60 ------------ 180 --------- 100
Reserve: ----- 480 ---------- ~~~ --------- 500
Accuracy: ---- 15 ------------ 40 ----------- 30
Recoil: -------- 0.2 ----------- 0 ------------ 1.1
Burst DPS: -- 861.3 -------- 1226.9 ---- 1109.6
Sustained: -- 656.3 -------- 895.3 ------- 836.2
vs. Armor: ---- 441 ---------- 725 --------- 694
Reload: ------- 2.9 ----------- 5 ------------ 2.9
Penetration: -- 1.10 ---------- 1.10 ------ 1.35


And look, The PPR, and Typhoon (both URs) outclass the Revneant (Rare)..on EVERYTHING.

The thing is, those numbers don't take "playability" into the equation.

My friends and I do Unknown/Unknown Platinums all the time, and I have yet to see a single one of them use the Particle Rifle for their Sentinels or Soldiers.  Why?  The Particle Rifle is a very situational, very "specialist/Niche" gun.  I've also only ever seen a handful of Randoms using it.

The Typhoon was used by several of my friends regularly, especially on their Destoyers.  All of them have dropped it sincve the Nerf.  I was using the Typhoon on my Destroyer as well.  I have swapped it for my Revenant.

Whether its Recoil, the Weight, the need to expose oneself in order to gain full dps, or the lack of cqc ability, the Typhoon just isn't as flexible/playable anymore as the Revenant or Harrier, and the recent Nerf has really put a crunch on its risk vs benefit factor.

So, we can argue about numbers all we want, the truth is, the Typhoon is now collecting dust for  a lot of its former users, especially the hardcores among us.

Modifié par Thoragoros, 04 août 2012 - 09:16 .

[Rifneno]

Annelos wrote...

Oh yes, because this game is so hard to understand. Thankfully forum is full of such full-of-themselves guys like you that think using OP weapon in Platinium solo and sticking to one corner of the map is PURE SKILL and guys like me that point out "uh, no dude, it's just that weapon..." are ofc brain dead and just don't understand

Riiight. It's just the gun. It's not like Sp3c7eR has been soloing gold since the frickin' demo, you walking definition of "ignorance".

Keep your troll-attitude to yourself. I understand what ammo-types do, I'm a regular G&P player and I do well on these difficulty levels but I'm far from taking down Atlas in 5 seconds of constant fire with any other weapon and pre-nerf Typhoon did exacly that.

Any of you guys reading this topic can show me equal speed of taking down Atlas on Platinium with any other weapon , full gear&consumables on?

Thought so.

Like has been said a gazillion times in these threads, piranha has better dps than pre-nerf typhoon.

If you want this game to be easy, stick to the bronze and don't try to mess with the people that actually want some challenge.

I imagine the game is quite the challenge regardless with your grasp of its workings.

Gamemako wrote...

Hmm. Let's say that the protection bonus is tied to the ramp-up. If that is the case, it could be 50% of the ramp-up bonus instead of 50% flat. That would explain the missing variable as well. The result of that would be roughly as follows:

Or it simply doesn't work. How many things in this game are just broken?

Thoragoros wrote...

Cull58 wrote...

BW clearly just play bronze and silver, if indeed they play at all. I doubt they are very good at the game compared to the community. Not voodoo, just skill.

Unfortuantely, this is most likely very true, given how they said "Platinum" would be impossible, and how they apparently lack any understanding regarding the Typhoon-Revenant conundrum that they have created with this most recent Nerf.

Agreed with these.