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[k3ttl3black]

Fortack wrote...

Well, we Krogan prefer a more practical mathematical approach

For example:

Real Krogan science also gives bonus if enemy dies from explosion or fire. Because explosions are better, that's a scientific fact.

Modifié par k3ttl3black, 05 août 2012 - 12:37 .

[greghorvath]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

We've done a lot of internal tests on the N7 Typhoon comparing it to other assault rifles and other weapons, and even with the recent nerf it is still incredibly powerful. One of the reasons for this is that the weapon has an inherit 50% damage bonus versus armor, shields, and barriers. This far outclasses other weapons in terms of damage bonuses against resistances. The Revenant, for example, does not get this bonus and does regular damage to armor, shields, and barriers.

As always, we'll keep an eye on the balance of the N7 Typhoon, but if you have the weapon please test it out in game against different enemies to see how it feels. The numbers can often be deceiving so it's difficult to tell how effective a weapon is on paper.

Hello Eric! I have not yet addressed you directly before, but I doubt it will become a habit or a pleasurable activity for either of us. Anyway, here I go.

Your post raises a few interesting points and questions.

We've done a lot of internal tests on the N7 Typhoon .

This should have happened pre-release. Whatever you may suggest, every DLC item released is (with the popular term) unbalanced. My term for it would be stupid, but that is another matter.

comparing it to
other assault rifles [...] and even with the recent nerf
it is still incredibly powerful

the very simple reason for this is that you probably omitted internal pre-release testing on the ARs as well. Otherwise it would have stood out most of them are useless. Having one that actually feels and acts like an assault rifle just points out the obvious.

Concerning the typhoon issue:

The overall problem is that with the development of the Mass Effect universe the game has changed from having "class specific weapons" (or to be more precise classes with clear weapon requirements) to having an arsenal of balanceable (meaning both "can be balanced" and "has to be balanced") weapons. If a weapon happens to synergize with a class and as such produces understandable enthusiasm in the playerbase, people that wish to stroke their epeen by demonstrating their mastery of game mechanics get a chance to come all over the forum by going on and on about how overpowered those weapons/classes are. Unfortunately, with the lack of pre-testing coupled with the unlock system (making it impossible for the majority of players to try out a weapon at its full potential before it is ****** up "balanced") with the weapon modding system that gives boosts to weapons already "unbalanced" (that BW keeps amping up by introducing even stronger equipment because they refuse to overhaul that crap of an unlock system). You keep introducing weapons that cater to the majority, then you adjust them to suit the minority. Guess which of the two makes you more money and pissing off which is worse.

And the cycle starts again with every DLC where the dependance on the microtransaction system makes BW release a bunch of otherwise totally unnecessary weapons.

You at BW have implemented a system you cannot possibly keep in hand. The close to infinite number of variables (classes*weapons*weapon levels*weapon group bonuses*modifications*mod levels*equipment*equipment levels etc) makes "balancing" such a blatant farce that I am surprised some of the more (seemingly) intelligent people here are willing to take part.

Please realise my harshness (if any) is not directed at you personally. Your task at BioWare of participating in this "balancing" joke may or may not be your own choice, but I must say that the persons responsible for it either have motivations beyond my comprehension or some serious defects. For the meanwhile they remain lucky however, as long as the community laps this garbage up.

This is the first MP of the ME universe. If you plan on new games, please, oh please, forget making it uncontrollable.

The typhoon feels like Specter described.

[Relix28]

Fortack wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

@Fortack: But that math is the underlying principal on which the game works (or is supposed to work).

Well, we Krogan prefer a more practical mathematical approach

For example:

1) Weapon A needs 3.1 shots to kill target X; weapon A with an additional 25% damage boost does it in 3.875 shots. Either way you have to fire 4 times to kill target X so the 25% damage bonus might look significant on paper yet it is irrelevant b/c 4 shots = 4 shots.

2) The Claymore might have lower DPS than the (pre-nerfed) Typhoon but you only have to expose yourself for a brief moment to take a shot, can cast powers between shots (without reducing DPS) and look around while reloading (safely behind cover) to avoid getting flanked / surprised.

3) The GPS staggers every unarmored enemy in the game.

Those feature have a huge impact on gameplay yet are very hard to describe using a mathematical equation. Something that looks good on a spreadsheet doesn't means it is good in-game.

Exactly. And someone saying that the Typhoon has an innate multiplier against everything that isn't health, might make it sound like the weapon is extremely powerful, while in reality that piece of info and all the math associated with it, is completely irrelevant to weapons overall performance on the field. Especially when you fail to factor in a whole lot of other important things that directly or indirectly affect the weapons performance and viability. Things such as exposure risk and risk-reward associated with it, issues with enemy stagger interupts, charcters power setup to wepon synergy,  weapon weight, and even recoil and accuracy have been completely ignored by the balancing team when they went in and "balanced" the Typhoon. Its either that, or they have based thier balancing on (semi-irrelevant) numbers and forgot to field test it afterwards.

<insert bill o'riley typhoon meme here>

[jmaster11]

it was a pretty powerful gun before the nerf being able to take out a prime on gold in one clip was cool, but since the reduction i find it a bit too heavy, and not enough ammo to use regularly. I only use it with the destoyer and when a friend is willing to leave me a supply pylon

[ryoldschool]

@wiqidbritt yes I am aware of the powerless position I am in and the fact that bioware decided to nerf a weapon to 1/2 its effectiveness after I spent real.money trying to get upgrades for it. The Dlc is free because people like me will spend actual money to get some good items faster without having playing for endless hours to get credits. Had they released it in the nerfed state I would not have purchased the many PSP to get upgrades. I don't recall another ultra rare weapon getting nerfed in half within two weeks of release . If everyone had to pay $30 to get the Dlc then nerfing this weapon would affect everyone the same.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I think that part of the communities problems with deciding how they feel about weapon balance stems from the fact that they want every weapon to be really good on gold. There is nothing wrong with wanting that, but you do have to realise that many weapons if made to the communities standards of "gold worthy" would be insanely overpowered on silver and bronze, and that the majority of the overall community does not play on gold.

I too would like to be able to use the weaker weapons just as effectively on gold, but I realised a long while ago, that Bioware never intended every weapon to be as powerful as each other, and that rarity can be attributed to a gun being unique rather than simply more powerful. I would never use an M16 against an armoured personnel carrier and expect it to do much damage, that's like attacking a brute with a vindicator. Thats why I wouldn't take a Vindicator on gold, you are an elite task force dropping in to take out heavily armoured units, you know what you are going up against, so you equip yourself in mind of that. Silver is a good balance, AR's, SMG's still do well against most enemies, with heavy enemies being taken out by powers and heavy powerful weapons.

I wish there were some waves on gold that were full of lots and lots of low health enemies(a huge volume), that way all weapons and powers would have a place there, but I fear that console limitations prevent such a thing from ever happening. If however the enemy spawns were moved much closer to the players, and the enemies continually respawned when killed, then that might give the illusion of many enemies at once, whilst keeping the difficulty hard, and then that would give players a reason to have a few charcters weilding AR's and sustained fire weapons, and a few specializing in Boss disposal. It would make a lot of powers rarely seen on gold much more useful on it, like singularity.

The Typhoon is really good, but people are comparing an AR/LMG to armour peircing sniper rifles and complaining it does no damage against the equivalent of an armoured tank. If the enemy balance was different on gold, then so many many more builds and classes, weapons and powers would be viable without inherently changing the weapons purposes and the overall difficulty.

Modifié par K1LL STREAK, 05 août 2012 - 01:50 .

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I wish it hadn't been nerfed too, by the way, but only because I liked being really powerful. This said, I agree that it was right to nerf if it's not fitting exactly where Bioware intended it to be, its still a really good gun.

[demondioma]

Entered 5 gold lobbies today, 4 of them had Destroyers with Revs. It seems that people are dropping the Typhoon like a hot potato and I highly doubt those people care about numbers and random facts being thrown at them when their experience speaks otherwise.

P.s. those 4 lobbies with destroyers kicked me. I had my gear on and my N7 level was around the same as theirs :[

[xXdmndmnXx]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

I wish it hadn't been nerfed too, by the way, but only because I liked being really powerful. This said, I agree that it was right to nerf if it's not fitting exactly where Bioware intended it to be, its still a really   okay-ish gun.

Fixed it for ya!

EDIT : Just checked your manifest, and you don't have the Typhoon so have you played with it over at a friend's house or something to make you say that? 

Modifié par xXdmndmnXx, 05 août 2012 - 02:25 .

[P51Mus7ang]

@Eric,

I was reading this comment from one of your staff.....http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/13516823/2#13519663

"The game is occasionally rebalanced as exploits and unbalanced situations are discovered. Rarely is this discovered through forum discussion, so simply calling for a nerf, buff, or complaining about either is not the soundest of strategies. It's frustrating to have one's preferred weapon, tactic, or character changed, but the BSN is full of creative, passionate players and there are many, many ways to play the game.

End of line. "

Which seems to be the opposite of what you are trying to do here, also contrary to what many of the staff have stated in that they do look at the forums, I mean how else can a company know what is going on in the real world?

I believe there is a partneship or at least there should be between your customers (players) and the Company (you as a representative)

I spent close to 20 years as an executive in Corporate finance, companies that listened to, worked with their customers, were some of the most successful.......just some food for thought.

Edit: typo

Modifié par P51Mus7ang, 05 août 2012 - 02:27 .

[GreatBlueHeron]

P51Mus7ang wrote...

PKTracer wrote...

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. ~Albert Einstein, Sidelights on Relativity

Numbers say one thing; our experiences say something else, and so does the video evidence.

And that is the bottom line.......

It's probably fine the way it is on Silver, shouldn't even be used in Bronze, I run with it in gold but mainly use it for a boss, guardian....ramp up time is a bit risky as I tend to be out of cover (gold) so I will use an SG or I have taken to the Scorpion.

The frustrating part for me is pre release, we read about what is coming, release comes and as a token of appreciation to Bio, personally I always put at least sixty bucks in, in my case it's not a big deal, just forgo a night out with the guys, when one finally get's the damn thing from a store that seems to hate us, it's WOW this is excellent, do a few gold and Plat runs, all smiles, then the number crunchers determine it needs to be adjusted, the results in game play do not equal the math at all, not even close.

I hope it get's resolved, I am not bitter for spending money to get the new toys, I will however wait in the future until the dust settles before I decide if I will just get items with credits from games or throw in some money as well to support these new features.

I only have it at 3, the Harrier which I have at 6 is a far safer weapon at this point, once again IMHO.

I've spent enough to buy a new console and I'm not bitter for spending the money, either, but I'll hold off on the spending for now. 

Someone had asked an obvious question earlier wondering if Bioware tested these weapons out before release.  The nerfs would be best implemented pre-release.  Are they using the playerbase to test these weapons out?  I love mp--I'm addicted, so don't get me wrong, but waving a carrot in front of everyone's face and then putting it on the chopping block is a good way to turn people away from the game.  As others have said, those calling for nerfs should play with friends and use weak weapons for a bigger challenge if that's what they desire.  Anyone calling for nerfs to weapons they don't even have doesn't make sense--their solution is to spend real money or build up credits to get the new toys.

[capn233]

I can't say I read through the entire 22 pages up till this point, just about the first half...

Pre-nerf the Typhoon was a decent choice on weight insensitive classes. I didn't care for it on Human Soldier, but apparently some did.

This damage nerf was one of the poorer balance changes that have been applied to the game.

Personally I can't say I understand at all what the folks at Bioware are going for when they are attempting to balance weapons. I would think that more weight should mean more weapon effectiveness since the weapon weight was made to directly affect power cooldowns. I would think that increased rarity should also increase weapon effectiveness. By and large this is not what we have seen.

Prime example is the Javelin, which is still one of the guns that I enjoy... but it is an extremely heavy ultra rare weapon that for the longest time was declared near useless by most of the community, and was considered a poor choice by those that played on higher difficulties.  The shield gate change was probably for this gun...

The pre-nerf Typhoon felt about right to me as far as effectiveness went. Spooled up it could dish out a lot of damage, but you had to have a character that could take some fire while he shot at the enemy. It helped to have damage or ROF bonuses as well, meaning this was a gun that felt most at home on Destroyer. It was heavy, an ultra rare, and it mostly worked. Now? Seems like a fairly mediocre choice.

On the other end of the spectrum we have had the pistol class which has been light, accurate and in some cases highly damaging. What is the proportion of users in a game that sport the Carnifex, Paladin or Talon on higher difficulties? Is their common use evidence of imbalance?

I would say yes, mainly because most of the weapons in the other classes just are not very good, and some are absolute rubbish. This isn't to say that every pistol is perfect, but the fact that the Predator (a Common, light pistol) out DPS's many other weapons in the game is fairly absurd.

Modifié par capn233, 05 août 2012 - 02:29 .

[Relix28]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

I wish it hadn't been nerfed too, by the way, but only because I liked being really powerful. This said, I agree that it was right to nerf if it's not fitting exactly where Bioware intended it to be, its still a really good gun.

Errr....no. It used to be a good gun. And even back then, it was only good on handful of characters. Right now, it's ok at best on those same few characters, and a hindrance on every other character. And when a weapon, especially an Ultra-Rare becomes comparable to the ever underpowered Revenant, that usually indicates that something is wrong and that the weapon in question is borderline garbage.

[4ut0b4hn5child27]

because I'm so lazy entering Silver, once in Silver and using N7 Destroyer i put

Assault Rifle Rail amp III + armor piercing ammo IV ----> pure trolling
enemy: Reaper

all enemy just die in 5 second LOL

still viable gun in Silver even without any MOD. Once using Turian in Silver.

It's still good gun even without nerf, but I'm angry because the ability to attack the wall, not effective because of that stupid nerfer. UR is supposed to be powerful.

I blame whoever gave BioWare suggestion to nerf this gun.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

UR is not supposed to be more powerful. It is supposed to have some advantages and unique abilities over other guns, but nowhere is there anything to say that they should be any more powerful. The typhoon does more damage versus shields and armour than its counterparts, it IS more powerful in that sense. Comparing it to the revenant is taking the most powerful AR and using its base damage out of context, the typhoon is still better than most of the others, and the revenant doesn't get the innate bonuses the typhoon does. Its like comparing a wraith to a claymore or graal, just because it is UR doesnt mean its any stronger, but it does have its niche.

I didn't want it changed either, but its certainly still good.

[Gockey]

lol at the people arguing that it is still great in silver. It's an ultra-rare. Not an uncommon or a rare. It SHOULD destroy silver.

Besides which, who cares? Nothing should be balanced around silver. The people playing at that level clearly need a handicap. Everything should always be balanced around the highest difficulty in any game. In this case, platinum. And those of you who use this on platinum know its not worth taking anymore.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

xXdmndmnXx wrote...

K1LL STREAK wrote...

I wish it hadn't been nerfed too, by the way, but only because I liked being really powerful. This said, I agree that it was right to nerf if it's not fitting exactly where Bioware intended it to be, its still a really   okay-ish gun.

Fixed it for ya!

EDIT : Just checked your manifest, and you don't have the Typhoon so have you played with it over at a friend's house or something to make you say that? 

Yes, I have used at a friends. When I say its a good gun, I mean as in compared with the other AR's, not compared to ALL guns, because all the AR's mostly feel underwhelming compared to high burst damage weapons. I wanted it so bad, and now its not as good..

[N7 Whiskey]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

SalvationThroughDestruction wrote...

Does this bonus multiply with the damage ramp up? (Ie. Bonus vs shields/Armor/ect applies to first hits, then is effected by the ramp up)

The bonus to resistances multiplies the final damage number, so it is incredibly powerful.

Sure, with the correct class & build, the correct consumables & gear and with zero enemies shooting at you, the gun is incredibly powerful.  

Do you not take into consideration that on Gold & Platinum you will be killed before you get the Typhoon ramped up to max damage?  Or is it that 1 on 1 against a boss enemy is too easy because you can ramp it up fully by hiding behind a corner and shooting at a shoulder or arm?

Against a majority of enemies on the game, the Saber is way more effective and even the Revenant is a much better choice.

[Krantzstone]

Stinja wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

My post was in regard to the pre-nerf video. In that video, someone holds the trigger for 6 seconds while standing in one spot. Any monkey in the storm can do that quite easily. That is not skill. 

Again, context.
Just because someone can do that, does not mean they can solo platinum: you need to awareness; herd enemies, positioning; then "skilllessly" hold down a button for 6 seconds.  Leading up to that button holding?  That is skill.


Really the bigger issue with buffs and nerfs is we don't know what Bioware intends in their mindset.
Is it just tall poppy syndrome, and anything that stands out gets nerfed?

We seem to think weapons should progress in usefulness (kill power essentially) from common thru to ultra-rare.  But does Bioware also think this?
At what point should a lower rarity gun be outshined by a higher rarity gun?  At level I or V or X/never?
Are assault rifles balanced against other weapon types?
At what difficulty are weapons tested against?

Im not bothered, I'll just use a different gun, but it saddens me how split the community gets, and how people push their agendas.  I just think the fixed armour penalties was badly thought OT, but that's another discussion....

THIS.

[HellishFiend]

Gockey wrote...

lol at the people arguing that it is still great in silver. It's an ultra-rare. Not an uncommon or a rare. It SHOULD destroy silver.

Besides which, who cares? Nothing should be balanced around silver. The people playing at that level clearly need a handicap. Everything should always be balanced around the highest difficulty in any game. In this case, platinum. And those of you who use this on platinum know its not worth taking anymore.

Bollocks. I'm a prolific platinum player, and I think it is still worth taking. 

[Relix28]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

UR is not supposed to be more powerful. It is supposed to have some advantages and unique abilities over other guns, but nowhere is there anything to say that they should be any more powerful. The typhoon does more damage versus shields and armour than its counterparts, it IS more powerful in that sense. Comparing it to the revenant is taking the most powerful AR and using its base damage out of context, the typhoon is still better than most of the others, and the revenant doesn't get the innate bonuses the typhoon does. Its like comparing a wraith to a claymore or graal, just because it is UR doesnt mean its any stronger, but it does have its niche.

I didn't want it changed either, but its certainly still good.

Whatever makes you feel better, budd.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

Its all opinions at the end of the day, we all wish it was better, some of us still enjoy using it, and some of us don't. My point was, its not as bad as people are making out, when I say its a good gun, I am not saying its a great gun or a better gun, I am simply saying its not awful. Compared with its counterpart AR's it is still one of the best we have, its not my fault all the AR's are pretty pants against armour in general anyway(except saber).

If the enemies on gold were more balanced instead of all being high health armoured units, then the AR's would be much more effective, as it is they will always feel a little lacking.

[Krantzstone]

Also, I just tried the Revenant X that I had kicking around and I love it: it's a nice balance between Harrier and Typhoon. Not as accurate as either, but with enough clips to be useful (on a Destroyer anyway) to get the job done without constantly running out of ammo the way I did with the Typhoon and especially the Harrier, and it does fine with stability gun mod, armor piercing mod, disruptor ammo (against Geth), and stability equipment.

I'd say that while the Typhoon is probably more useful at longer ranges where its accuracy makes it particularly useful, I find the Revenant is good for my spray-and-pray style/Stormtrooper-level ineptitude, where as the Typhoon is almost too accurate that if I'm not aiming carefully, I'm frequently missing my targets that move around a lot (and Geth seem to move a lot more now, at least on Gold). The Revenant, I could quickly duck back into cover when my shields went down, without having that temptation to stay out of cover just a little longer to try and finish something off, the way I did with the Typhoon (this is what probably gets me killed the most on the Destroyer).

I'm not a number-cruncher or meta-gamer so I can't tell you if the numbers add up, but based on the 'feel' of the weapon, the Typhoon's second nerf seems to have underpowered it a bit (Full Disclosure: I only have a Typhoon II). Although what's interesting is that I still found I could kill things relatively quickly while shooting from cover with the Typhoon, but it seemed to take longer if I actually stood up out of cover and right-click-aimed and fired it. I know weapons are more accurate from cover, but I would have thought actually aiming via right-click would off-set that but that's the only explanation I can give for the Typhoon seeming to kill things faster when fired from cover than when I fully exposed myself to aim. If it weren't for the cover-fire reticle being so small that I have difficulty aiming the Typhoon from cover, I'd probably just fire it from cover all the time. As it stands, I generally prefer to zoom in and right-click aim most weapons (especially the Piranha) because it seems to be more accurate and thus, my shots landing on target more and killing the target quicker.

Anyone else notice this, or is it just my imagination?

[xis3]

Relix28 wrote...

Errr....no. It used to be a good gun. And even back then, it was only good on handful of characters. Right now, it's ok at best on those same few characters, and a hindrance on every other character. And when a weapon, especially an Ultra-Rare becomes comparable to the ever underpowered Revenant, that usually indicates that something is wrong and that the weapon in question is borderline garbage.

No,postnerf using typhoon and holding the trigger on ANY class was way better than spam power and shoot between cooldown, thats why the nerf, game breaking.
i still use it on my AJA , FQE, krog soldier and other none "destroyer - TS - GI" on plat, and it rock, sur don't expect killing phantom that easyly.

It is a bit to heavy correct, the ramp up is a bit to long true, it can have a slight buff in damage i agree, even more spare ammo ! But this gun was to overpower before and the best AR right know, stop saying revenant also, tried multiple time on different class on solo plat and the damage from typhoon I is way better, more accurate, less recoil, you can walk at full speed and got a little DR ( not sure bout this one ).

[Mr McKillAlot]

mybe if they made that and the harrier a little more easy to get then guys like myself could test there the only 2 guns i need
on a side note it should not have been nerfd its a joke why would you even think about that it weighs a ton is slow as hell and with the new difficulty its crazy wanting to nerf anything i dont play silver or bronze only gold and platnum and nerfing stuff ruines the game for many weapons/powers looks like were going to see the typhoon turn into the acolyte