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Thoughts on the N7 Typhoon


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#801
a-karpen

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Gamemako wrote...

mrcanada wrote...

I truly don't understand how they can even entertain further nerfs to this weapon.


I will explain.

As I just discovered, the gun, fully geared out, can out-DPS a Piranha, even post-nerf. The observed ROF of the gun is actually 1800, not the 650 we previously believed, and there appears to be a (rather buggy) 25% total damage multiplier against protection that applies on top of the 50% ramp-up multiplier. That gives you a theoretical 7726.64 fully-charged max burst DPS vs shields on a Destroyer compared to the 5927.38 you could get with a Piranha. This is quite consistent with the results obtained by Sp3c7eR in his video: it took him about 5 seconds to strip the shield, and even neglecting the warmup, it would have taken him 4.68 seconds (max charged DPS of 5853.52). Include the warp-up (the mechanics of which we thought we knew but maybe actually don't) and you're in pretty damn good agreement.

Not even a Piranha comes close. Let that sink in. Everyone who switched to the PPR or Rev on their Destroyer is a damned fool.


Are you going to stop your preparations for math at school/university and just PLAY this game to see that all your numbers are bulls**t.

#802
joker_jack

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Lkv999 wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

mrcanada wrote...

I truly don't understand how they can even entertain further nerfs to this weapon.


I will explain.

As I just discovered, the gun, fully geared out, can out-DPS a Piranha, even post-nerf. The observed ROF of the gun is actually 1800, not the 650 we previously believed, and there appears to be a (rather buggy) 25% total damage multiplier against protection that applies on top of the 50% ramp-up multiplier. That gives you a theoretical 7726.64 fully-charged max burst DPS vs shields on a Destroyer compared to the 5927.38 you could get with a Piranha. This is quite consistent with the results obtained by Sp3c7eR in his video: it took him about 5 seconds to strip the shield, and even neglecting the warmup, it would have taken him 4.68 seconds (max charged DPS of 5853.52). Include the warp-up (the mechanics of which we thought we knew but maybe actually don't) and you're in pretty damn good agreement.

Not even a Piranha comes close. Let that sink in. Everyone who switched to the PPR or Rev on their Destroyer is a damned fool.


Are you going to stop your preparations for math at school/university and just PLAY this game to see that all your numbers are bulls**t.


Even when a person plays they can see the math at work on how the typhoon perfoms aginst say a particle rifle. :whistle:

#803
Xaijin

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The funny thing is the resistance type multiplier just proved him flat wrong AND guilty of conflation, without having even having to go into the game.

#804
Gamemako

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Lkv999 wrote...

Are you going to stop your preparations for math at school/university and just PLAY this game to see that all your numbers are bulls**t.


1) Oh, I'll do you one better. I finished university (engineering) and still happen to use math.

2) You've also neglected that I came to these formulas by examining gameplay videos. I didn't just pull this out of thin air; I did quite a bit of testing. You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.

//EDIT: Xaijin, if you'd looked earlier in the thread, you'll see where I pointed out that the pre-nerf video showed a 50% modifier but the newer video shows only a 25% modifier. This may not be intended, but it is apparent. So once again: Shut up, the adults are talking.

Modifié par Gamemako, 07 août 2012 - 09:11 .


#805
TheloniusBear

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I don't have a typhoon, so I cannot comment on the viability of it pre- or post- nerf, but I have to ask, and this is a genuine question. Why do all balance threads revolve around platinum? I understand that it is the hardest difficulty, but wouldn't it make sense to balance gameplay around where the majority of players play? And I would agree that if a weapon set up properly could take down a boss type enemy in a platinum match extremely fast, wouldn't that seem counter intuitive as to the spirit of platinum? I don't think bioware likes their hardest difficulty (and gold matches before platinum) being decimated by speed runs and the like. I know that the majority of the people that actually play platinum can't and won't ever be able to achieve a speed run, but even that fact that its possible probably makes BW cringe a bit. Probably a little bit to do why there are nerfs more than buffs. Just a thought, please feel free to respond with thoughts

#806
soldo9149

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Gamemako wrote...

Lkv999 wrote...

Are you going to stop your preparations for math at school/university and just PLAY this game to see that all your numbers are bulls**t.


1) Oh, I'll do you one better. I finished university (engineering) and still happen to use math.

2) You've also neglected that I came to these formulas by examining gameplay videos. I didn't just pull this out of thin air; I did quite a bit of testing. You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.

//EDIT: Xaijin, if you'd looked earlier in the thread, you'll see where I pointed out that the pre-nerf video showed a 50% modifier but the newer video shows only a 25% modifier. This may not be intended, but it is apparent. So once again: Shut up, the adults are talking.


I am not saying your math is wrong, but playing 10 games with the M-76 Revenant and 10 with the Typhoon on Platinum. The M-76 Revenant performed better over the Typhoon. Now these are not farming matchs. We had it setup for all random on Platinum. We had to quit the Rio maps since RIo is just a horrible map but back on topic. M-76 Revenant performed better then the Typhoon. Math says it is better but gameplay it is not working better for alot of players and me included. I kept my scores closer to the rest of the group with the M-76 Revenant and even topped the score board which doesnt really say to much besides i got most of the kills and kills award more points for whatever reason compared to someone doing most of the damage to a target normally. The game times of matchs are shorter and it just felt better while using it over the typhoon. Now math says its better but gameplay its just not as good as it should be. Something is not working right for the weapon for me to get better results with the M-76 Revenant.

#807
mrcanada

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TheloniusBear wrote...

I don't have a typhoon, so I cannot comment on the viability of it pre- or post- nerf, but I have to ask, and this is a genuine question. Why do all balance threads revolve around platinum? I understand that it is the hardest difficulty, but wouldn't it make sense to balance gameplay around where the majority of players play? And I would agree that if a weapon set up properly could take down a boss type enemy in a platinum match extremely fast, wouldn't that seem counter intuitive as to the spirit of platinum? I don't think bioware likes their hardest difficulty (and gold matches before platinum) being decimated by speed runs and the like. I know that the majority of the people that actually play platinum can't and won't ever be able to achieve a speed run, but even that fact that its possible probably makes BW cringe a bit. Probably a little bit to do why there are nerfs more than buffs. Just a thought, please feel free to respond with thoughts


Generally, balance is centered around gold for obvious reasons.  Platinum is used now as the barometer to measure effectiveness because it is now the most difficult. I personally feel gold still should be the difficult for determining balance and viability.

#808
Atheosis

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I find the complete lack of BW responses in a community relations thread started by them very interesting...

#809
Kenadian

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Gamemako wrote...

Lkv999 wrote...

Are you going to stop your preparations for math at school/university and just PLAY this game to see that all your numbers are bulls**t.


1) Oh, I'll do you one better. I finished university (engineering) and still happen to use math.

2) You've also neglected that I came to these formulas by examining gameplay videos. I didn't just pull this out of thin air; I did quite a bit of testing. You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.

//EDIT: Xaijin, if you'd looked earlier in the thread, you'll see where I pointed out that the pre-nerf video showed a 50% modifier but the newer video shows only a 25% modifier. This may not be intended, but it is apparent. So once again: Shut up, the adults are talking.


This explains so much.

#810
FearTheCompany

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NERF ALL THINGS!!

#811
TheloniusBear

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mrcanada wrote...

TheloniusBear wrote...

I don't have a typhoon, so I cannot comment on the viability of it pre- or post- nerf, but I have to ask, and this is a genuine question. Why do all balance threads revolve around platinum? I understand that it is the hardest difficulty, but wouldn't it make sense to balance gameplay around where the majority of players play? And I would agree that if a weapon set up properly could take down a boss type enemy in a platinum match extremely fast, wouldn't that seem counter intuitive as to the spirit of platinum? I don't think bioware likes their hardest difficulty (and gold matches before platinum) being decimated by speed runs and the like. I know that the majority of the people that actually play platinum can't and won't ever be able to achieve a speed run, but even that fact that its possible probably makes BW cringe a bit. Probably a little bit to do why there are nerfs more than buffs. Just a thought, please feel free to respond with thoughts


Generally, balance is centered around gold for obvious reasons.  Platinum is used now as the barometer to measure effectiveness because it is now the most difficult. I personally feel gold still should be the difficult for determining balance and viability.


I agree with your thoughts on balance around gold for the most part, and I'm an average silver player. It just seems like if the community really wants the MP to thrive and last, the masses is where BW should be looking to balance. Not the elite minority as great as they are. (Said in all seriousness, I wish I had the skill to beat platinum Image IPB)

#812
blacksheepD

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It's balanced about right now due to its enormous weight.

#813
xcrunr1647

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I had the Typhoon I the day Earth came out. It felt extremely deadly, but so heavy that it was well-balanced. The only classes I used it on were my Turian Soldier, Krogan Sentinel and Demolisher (no Destroyer at that time). The weight was acceptable due to the high damage potential.

My Typhoon I is now sitting on a shelf, gathering dust post-nerf. I even put it on my relatively recently acquired Destroyer and I found it quite lackluster. I am very disappointed with the weapon in its current state. It was already risky to keep your head out long enough to kill anything on Platinum due to the ramp-up. Now it is simply not worth it, due to the high weight and low damage.

Simply for the record, as primary weapons I prefer the Harrier/Indra on my Demolisher, Hurricane on my Turian Soldier, Harrier/Indra on my Krogan Sentinel, and Revenant/Indra on my Destroyer. I feel that these weapons all significantly outperform the "balanced" Typhoon.

The typhoon reminds me of a story one of my friends once told me...she was at the gym and kind of had some feelings for a coworker of mine. He was a big dude. She took him home, thinking "YEAAHHHH BUDDY!" and then when it came time to get down to business her reaction was more along the lines of "Wait...so that's what I'm working with? But...but..."

That's the irl parallel I draw to the current Typhoon. Looks like a tiger but performs like a mouse.

#814
Gamemako

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soldo9149 wrote...

I am not saying your math is wrong, but playing 10 games with the M-76 Revenant and 10 with the Typhoon on Platinum. The M-76 Revenant performed better over the Typhoon. Now these are not farming matchs. We had it setup for all random on Platinum. We had to quit the Rio maps since RIo is just a horrible map but back on topic. M-76 Revenant performed better then the Typhoon. Math says it is better but gameplay it is not working better for alot of players and me included. I kept my scores closer to the rest of the group with the M-76 Revenant and even topped the score board which doesnt really say to much besides i got most of the kills and kills award more points for whatever reason compared to someone doing most of the damage to a target normally. The game times of matchs are shorter and it just felt better while using it over the typhoon. Now math says its better but gameplay its just not as good as it should be. Something is not working right for the weapon for me to get better results with the M-76 Revenant.


Given the number of bugs and difficulty of use, it doesn't surprise me. My current theory on the ROF has it being doubled and rounded to align with frame timing,  which results in an apparent ROF of 1200 for those without an ROF bonus and 1800 for the Destroyer even though the actual numbers should be 1300 and 1755. That in itself should tell you enough about how messed up the mechanics for this gun actually are. Bullets are fired to frametiming instead of to actual ROF. Incidentally, it would mean that the 5% ROF nerf to the Destroyer had 0 impact on the Typhoon. Note that this is just a theory and is subject to change.

//EDIT: Pretty sure you've seen me play a Destroyer with a Typhoon (badly). I'm not a good soldier. Trying to remember if that was pre-nerf or post-nerf.

Kenadian wrote...

This explains so much.


Yes, yes it does. B)

Modifié par Gamemako, 07 août 2012 - 11:10 .


#815
Krantzstone

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xcrunr1647 wrote...
<snip>

The typhoon reminds me of a story one of my friends once told me...she was at the gym and kind of had some feelings for a coworker of mine. He was a big dude. She took him home, thinking "YEAAHHHH BUDDY!" and then when it came time to get down to business her reaction was more along the lines of "Wait...so that's what I'm working with? But...but..."

That's the irl parallel I draw to the current Typhoon. Looks like a tiger but performs like a mouse.


So in other words, big guns will always get 'balanced' somehow?
:D

#816
soldo9149

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Gamemako wrote...

soldo9149 wrote...

I am not saying your math is wrong, but playing 10 games with the M-76 Revenant and 10 with the Typhoon on Platinum. The M-76 Revenant performed better over the Typhoon. Now these are not farming matchs. We had it setup for all random on Platinum. We had to quit the Rio maps since RIo is just a horrible map but back on topic. M-76 Revenant performed better then the Typhoon. Math says it is better but gameplay it is not working better for alot of players and me included. I kept my scores closer to the rest of the group with the M-76 Revenant and even topped the score board which doesnt really say to much besides i got most of the kills and kills award more points for whatever reason compared to someone doing most of the damage to a target normally. The game times of matchs are shorter and it just felt better while using it over the typhoon. Now math says its better but gameplay its just not as good as it should be. Something is not working right for the weapon for me to get better results with the M-76 Revenant.


Given the number of bugs and difficulty of use, it doesn't surprise me. My current theory on the ROF has it being doubled and rounded to align with frame timing,  which results in an apparent ROF of 1200 for those without an ROF bonus and 1800 for the Destroyer even though the actual numbers should be 1300 and 1755. That in itself should tell you enough about how messed up the mechanics for this gun actually are. Bullets are fired to frametiming instead of to actual ROF. Incidentally, it would mean that the 5% ROF nerf to the Destroyer had 0 impact on the Typhoon. Note that this is just a theory and is subject to change.

//EDIT: Pretty sure you've seen me play a Destroyer with a Typhoon (badly). I'm not a good soldier. Trying to remember if that was pre-nerf or post-nerf.

Kenadian wrote...

This explains so much.


Yes, yes it does. B)


I love soldiers and I was sick to death with being second rate to power class's and sometimes in pugs even kicked because of it. That has not happened in forever though but it used to until I got a good amount of friends to play with. Now the typhoon just felt right with the destroyer and even the other class that didn't use powers but the destroyer though just made it so much better then the others. The Turian soldier if he could roll or dodge would be my favorite because of marksmen alone. I love the typhoon a lot and still do just right now its not as good as the M-76 Revenant for whatever reason.

#817
xcrunr1647

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Krantzstone wrote...

xcrunr1647 wrote...
<snip>

The typhoon reminds me of a story one of my friends once told me...she was at the gym and kind of had some feelings for a coworker of mine. He was a big dude. She took him home, thinking "YEAAHHHH BUDDY!" and then when it came time to get down to business her reaction was more along the lines of "Wait...so that's what I'm working with? But...but..."

That's the irl parallel I draw to the current Typhoon. Looks like a tiger but performs like a mouse.


So in other words, big guns will always get 'balanced' somehow?
:D



:whistle:

#818
Fang92

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 So we are balancing guns around optimized loadouts and extra equipment consumables? .........Why?

#819
Gamemako

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Fang92 wrote...

 So we are balancing guns around optimized loadouts and extra equipment consumables? .........Why?


You aren't. Equipment and consumables add percentage bonuses in the first place, and there's no major discrepancy between weapons when it comes to available bonuses. You are balancing against 3 things:

1) Other weapons. The Typhoon then and the Piranha still make other weapons fully obsolete. If other weapons are nothing but a penalty to the player, then balance is clearly broken. There are two ways to balance this: buff the weaker weapons or nerf the more powerful ones. Purely considering weapons only, there's no inherent way to know which is the better option. Thus, you turn to the other two for guidance:

2) Power strength. Weapons are not the only tools for defeating your opponents, so you balance the game to have the relative ability of everyone reasonably close. Weapon classes get greater utility with weapons while power classes get powers to make up the difference. That does not mean that everyone has to be the same. Some classes may specialize in offense, killing things quickly, while others may specialize in defense, keeping enemies from throwing a wrench in the gears of your killing machine. Different does not mean deficient. However, you must keep these relatively in balance unless you want to make many classes obsolete. Unfortunately, the horrible imbalance of weaponry has made weapon classes the go-to for Platinum. Still, you could just buff powers to the level of weapons, right? That would satisfy the second condition as well. Well, there's the third condition:

3) Enemy strength. Nobody wants to play a game where you press the A button to watch everything in front of you explode in a shower of blood and sinew. That isn't a fun game. The game must offer a challenge (how much depends on the player's preference) to be entertaining. This is the reason we have multiple difficulty levels in games, and why ME3 MP has different challenge levels (though it is a tragedy that the game offers credits by difficulty level the way it does). Thus, you must balance the strength of your opponents against the strength of the tools you use to defeat them, else the game pretty well falls apart. This is part of why it's clear the that Piranha needs the nerf it will get tomorrow: the enemies, even in the highest difficulty, are absolutely hopeless before the power of this weapon.

The Typhoon needed the nerf it got. Does it need any more nerfs? Probably not right now: it's so buggy and tempermental that its innate weaknesses are amplified quite significantly. Is it ever going to be a gun for everyone? Of course not. If any gun is the end-all-be-all, it clearly needs a nerf. Is it unusuable? Clearly not, judging by the monstrous DPS it can put out (in practice, not on paper).

#820
Sp3c7eR

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Gamemako wrote...

You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.


OMG, omg! Typhoon so powerful, everybody has it at X and using it to clear platinum  in 10 mins! Check this out, Typhoon the most powerful gun in the game, that's why ALL speedruns done with Typhoons, not Claymores or Krysaes or Piranhas!

The fact a Reegar can stop a teleporting banshee, but Typhoon X can't means that Typhoon is really powerful & an amazing boss killer as it is supposed to be! Even if you have to use 4 clips to kill a Banshee on platinum with extended barrel!

Oh and the fact its time to kill has been increased twice doesn't mean it's been dethroned as best gun evar, IT HAS MULTIPLIERS THAT MAKE YOU WET YOUR PANTS!

Gamemako's calculations and maths show the truth about this game. Obviously.

Modifié par Sp3c7eR, 08 août 2012 - 12:44 .


#821
Guest_death_for_sale_*

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Sp3c7eR wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.


OMG, omg! Typhoon so powerful, everybody has it at X and using it to clear platinum  in 10 mins! Check this out, Typhoon the most powerful gun in the game, that's why ALL speedruns done with Typhoons, not Claymores or Krysaes or Piranhas!

The fact a Reegar can stop a teleporting banshee, but Typhoon X can't means that Typhoon is really powerful & an amazing boss killer as it is supposed to be! Even if you have to use 4 clips to kill a Banshee on platinum with extended barrel!

Oh and the fact its time to kill has been increased twice doesn't mean it's been dethroned as best gun evar, IT HAS MULTIPLIERS THAT MAKE YOU WET YOUR PANTS!

Gamemako's calculations and maths show the truth about this game. Obviously.


Don't get mad at him, you're the one who posted a video thinking you were going to show how badly the weapon was broken, when actually all you showed is that it roughly takes 6 more seconds to kill an Atlas at range. You showed it with an additional 5% RoF balance reduction from Devastator mode as well, so in effect, it was closer to a 4 second difference.

How fast can a caster class take one down with powers, not counting Demolisher uber nade spam?

#822
Sp3c7eR

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death_for_sale wrote...
You showed it with an additional 5% RoF balance reduction from Devastator mode as well, so in effect, it was closer to a 4 second difference.


Maybe you should read what your friend writes:

Gamemako wrote...
Incidentally, it would mean that the 5% ROF nerf to the Destroyer had 0 impact on the Typhoon. 

 

And I'm not mad, you should look for the invisible /sarcasm tags which I did not put on purpose.

#823
Gamemako

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Sp3c7eR wrote...

OMG, omg! Typhoon so powerful, everybody has it at X and using it to clear platinum  in 10 mins! Check this out, Typhoon the most powerful gun in the game, that's why ALL speedruns done with Typhoons, not Claymores or Krysaes or Piranhas!


Actually, 2 pre-nerf Typhoons were part of zhhk's record Platinum speedrun before it was overtaken by AreleX's Piranha squad, and the Typhoon doesn't mechanically lend itself to that sort of speedrunning because of the 0.75s warm-up time. That it was able to compete at all with the comically-overpowered, zero-warmup Piranha is a testament to its insane power.

#824
ryoldschool

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death_for_sale wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.


OMG, omg! Typhoon so powerful, everybody has it at X and using it to clear platinum  in 10 mins! Check this out, Typhoon the most powerful gun in the game, that's why ALL speedruns done with Typhoons, not Claymores or Krysaes or Piranhas!

The fact a Reegar can stop a teleporting banshee, but Typhoon X can't means that Typhoon is really powerful & an amazing boss killer as it is supposed to be! Even if you have to use 4 clips to kill a Banshee on platinum with extended barrel!

Oh and the fact its time to kill has been increased twice doesn't mean it's been dethroned as best gun evar, IT HAS MULTIPLIERS THAT MAKE YOU WET YOUR PANTS!

Gamemako's calculations and maths show the truth about this game. Obviously.


Don't get mad at him, you're the one who posted a video thinking you were going to show how badly the weapon was broken, when actually all you showed is that it roughly takes 6 more seconds to kill an Atlas at range. You showed it with an additional 5% RoF balance reduction from Devastator mode as well, so in effect, it was closer to a 4 second difference.

How fast can a caster class take one down with powers, not counting Demolisher uber nade spam?



Dude, 13 seconds vs 6 seconds, under the best circumstances for that gun ( basically a slow moving big target that can't hit you ).  Where you get that 10 seconds from ( where is your video ) ?

Modifié par ryoldschool, 08 août 2012 - 01:59 .


#825
Atheosis

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blacksheepD wrote...

It's balanced about right now due to its enormous weight.


Actually it's weight is one of the main reasons it kind of sucks now.