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[Sp3c7eR]

Gamemako wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

OMG, omg! Typhoon so powerful, everybody has it at X and using it to clear platinum  in 10 mins! Check this out, Typhoon the most powerful gun in the game, that's why ALL speedruns done with Typhoons, not Claymores or Krysaes or Piranhas!

Actually, 2 pre-nerf Typhoons were part of zhhk's record Platinum speedrun before it was overtaken by AreleX's Piranha squad, and the Typhoon doesn't mechanically lend itself to that sort of speedrunning because of the 0.75s warm-up time. That it was able to compete at all with the comically-overpowered, zero-warmup Piranha is a testament to its insane power.

Uh, no. That run was us fooling around with classes & powers that had just come out. We didn't have any strategy or tactics, wasn't even supposed to be a speedrun if you watch the video. So the fact that 2 destroyers made it in a speedrun that was long overtaken by Piranha and could easily be beaten by Claymore is no testament to the power of Typhoon and I mean none.

But wait, why are you contradicting yourself? The most powerful weapons lend themselves very well to speedruns, that's why they are called "overpowered" and get nerfed after a week or two. Why wouldn't the Typhoon suffer the same fate? How come it's not used in speedruns now while you still claim it's "incredibly powerful". Oh wait, cause it absolutely sucks now.

The Piranha will get nerfed, yet there will still be speedruns and new records broken and I guarantee you they won't feature the current state Typhoon no matter how powerful you make it out to be on paper. What is your next argument going to be? That the math doesn't lie?

[Gamemako]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Uh, no. That run was us fooling around with classes & powers that had just come out. We didn't have any strategy or tactics, wasn't even supposed to be a speedrun if you watch the video.

And how is that not a testament to the power of the weapons used?

Sp3c7eR wrote...

So the fact that 2 destroyers made it in a speedrun...

Let's not forget the movement speed penalty. And yet!

Sp3c7eR wrote...


...and could easily be beaten by Claymore...

Could it? Does it matter? Do you think the previous feature speedrun gun shouldn't outdo a gun that has a warm-up time and can't be used effectively on the premier speedrun class? (Though, to be honest, I highly doubt you can even get 12 minutes with Claymores despite having much more experience.)

Sp3c7eR wrote...


But wait, why are you contradicting yourself? The most powerful weapons lend themselves very well to speedruns, that's why they are called "overpowered" and get nerfed after a week or two.

So if you had to walk at 50% speed and couldn't sprint but automatically murdered everything that came in sight, that wouldn't be overpowered? Of course it would be. Your speed-runs would still suck.

I never said that guns that lend themselves to speedruns are overpowered, nor did I say that guns that are overpowered must lend themselves to speedruns. However, a weapon with mechanics opposed to speed-runs making an appearance in a speed-run must have sufficient power to overcome these mechanics, and that is pretty damn hard to do without being fantastically overpowered (and in this case, it was pretty much that).

Sp3c7eR wrote...


Why wouldn't the Typhoon suffer the same fate? How come it's not used in speedruns now while you still claim it's "incredibly powerful". Oh wait, cause it absolutely sucks now.

No, it's not used because the power no longer wins out over the mechanics. The anti-Gethfiltrator charge-up gun had to overcome a whole lot  to be used in the first place, and its post-nerf form is clearly not going to outdo the soon-to-be-nerfed Piranha.

Sp3c7eR wrote...


The Piranha will get nerfed, yet there will still be speedruns and new records broken and I guarantee you they won't feature the current state Typhoon no matter how powerful you make it out to be on paper.

Let's hope not, else it will clearly need another nerf.

Sp3c7eR wrote...


What is your next argument going to be? That the math doesn't lie?

I've already made my argument, and nothing else needs to be said. Your nonsense flailing does nothing to question its validity.

[RamsenC]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

But wait, why are you contradicting yourself? The most powerful weapons lend themselves very well to speedruns, that's why they are called "overpowered" and get nerfed after a week or two. Why wouldn't the Typhoon suffer the same fate? How come it's not used in speedruns now while you still claim it's "incredibly powerful". Oh wait, cause it absolutely sucks now.

This is key here. No one is using the gun anymore. Even before the nerf I would take the Claymore over the Typhoon on every class except the Destroyer. When a gun is in that 2.0-2.5 weight class you are competing with the Claymore, which means that gun must be absolutely insane to be even worth picking. It is currently not absolutely insane and not worth the UR status. 

I hope the people arguing for it actually use the gun, because I sure don't.

Typhoon vs Claymore prenerf:
+ Much more sustained dps
+ Innate piercing, which really just frees up a mod slot and is worse than shredder.
- Much longer exposure time
- Far less burst damage
- Ineffecient against mooks
- Harder to level up
- More sidearm dependant than the Claymore
- Start up time before full dps is reached

That's a lot of negatives for something that really only shines against Atlases and Banshees, which are more annoying than deadly. I didn't mention Primes because of stunlock screwing up your sustained damage, although the Destroyer is immune. For every other enemy, the Claymore wins out, and I'm talking PRENERF.

Modifié par RamsenC, 08 août 2012 - 03:48 .

[Krantzstone]

Atheosis wrote...

I find the complete lack of BW responses in a community relations thread started by them very interesting...

Maybe they were just trolling us. ;P  Or didn't want to read 30+ pages (I read most of them though).

I'd be interested to see video footage of BW balance testing, because I'm curious how their methods of determining balance (including how they play) differ from how the ME3 multiplayer community plays.

I'd also love to see the mathematical minutiae of how damage is calculated by the game, as well as relative stats of everything, and BW's explanation of how everything is _supposed_ to work.

If the community had all that information at their disposal, they could better see how the game is balanced, as well as gaining greater insight into how different aspects of game mechanics are supposed to work, as well as being able to then identify whether something is actually working the way it is supposed to be working.

Giving players a weapons testing ground would also be hugely beneficial, not just for settling the myriad forum disputes between metagamers ;P but simply from the standpoint of the community being able to see exactly what balance changes were made to weapons/skills/classes/enemies.  Sometimes these things are difficult to suss out in the heat of battle (especially on the more hectic waves of Gold and Platinum).

My main concern is that there have been a couple of times in the past where BW stated that something was supposed to work a certain way when player testing clearly showed it didn't work the way BW claimed (and I'm not accusing BW of lying or anything), and it turned out that BW were actually mistaken about how exactly their own code worked.  If even BW are unsure as to exactly how the game is supposed to work, even with access to the actual code, then I don't have high hopes for the BSN ME3 multiplayer community being able to figure out if something is even working the way it's supposed to or not, because there are so many variables in play and without all the information available to the game devs, the community can only guess at how something works, or how it's supposed to work, let alone being able to determine if it actually is working the way it's supposed to or not.

I personally wouldn't know code from a hole in the ground and I deliberately didn't take any higher maths because I hate math ;P, but I'd love to see some of my more maths-oriented colleagues here on the forums get their hands on the actual code, or at least the formulas and algorithms as well as the devs' game design notes so we have a clear idea of what is supposed to be happening, so that we can then determine if the code is working the way it's supposed to or not.

If there are industrial secrets involved, I don't see why some of the best ME3 multiplayer players who are savvy about the game mechanics can't be hired on on a contract or temporary basis, or even as a volunteer job, to help do a lot of the balance testing (not to mention bug/glitch finding), have them sign non-disclosure agreements, and maybe give them some decent in-game perks as part payment for their work.

I mean, clearly we have some very intelligent and capable players on here who are dedicated to trying to make ME3 multiplayer better, and I think it would be a loss to all concerned, but to BW most of all, not to take advantage of people who are basically already volunteering their leisure time to playing this game solely to help improve the game.

Not me though, I'm too lazy and lack sufficient game knowledge/ability.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Fagnan Said...
We've done a lot of internal tests on the N7 Typhoon comparing it to
other assault rifles and other weapons, and even with the recent nerf it
is still incredibly powerful. One of the reasons for this is that the
weapon has an inherit 50% damage bonus versus armor, shields, and
barriers. This far outclasses other weapons in terms of damage bonuses
against resistances. The Revenant, for example, does not get this bonus
and does regular damage to armor, shields, and barriers.

It's inefficient garbage now, especially on Gold and Platinum, and no attempts to argue that it's "fine" in its current state are going to fly with this community because, putting it simply, our number-crunchers and vets know only too well what the nerf brought this weapon.

The nerf done to it has ensured it will never be used, since even with its mods, the Phaeston, Tempest, and Revenant are all better choices for burst DPS that don't weigh about 12 tons and take forever to warm up just to kill something. The gun is functionally only usable on the Destroyer now, whereas it was originally usable on most of the game's power-light and cooldown immune classes, including:

* N7 Demolisher
* Krogan Soldier
* Krogan Sentinel
* Quarian Male Engineer
* Quarian Male Infiltrator
* Human Soldier
* Battlefield 3 Soldier
* Turian Soldier
* Batarian Soldier
* Vorcha Sentinel

So it was once usable effectively on 10 classes, and now usable effectively on one, maybe two if you're damned skilled with the Turian Soldier.

That is not, as we say, harkening towards balance.

Considering that a Typhoon Operator had to pop up and expose himself in order to use the weapon, drawing fire from every yahoo who wanted to take a pot-shot at him and having to start its fire-rate from scratch if there was any stun directed the operator whatsoever, as the weapon slowly built up fire rate and chewed through a mountain of ammunition to accomplish its goal, most would argue that the firepower it offered, pre-nerf, was a balance for the risk the heavy-as-hell bullet-hose posed. 

There's a point at which we have to ask if a weapon is worth it. When it's reliably being outperformed by the admittedly-undergunning Particle Rifle, that's a good point to start asking the question. When you see it's reliably out-DPSed by the Tempest, that's more the point where you start questioning the existence of causality as far as this game's metagame is concerned.

[Hypertion]

yeah i got it to 3 with Particle Rifle at 2.. still worse off than the particle rifle..

my final thoughts on the N7 Typhoon... Bioware has no clue how to actually balance this game...

Modifié par Hypertion, 08 août 2012 - 03:57 .

[mrcanada]

I've gone back and done some testing with it since I had taken almost a week hiatus from the game. Turns out the Typhoon is not a very good gun at all now and I have no idea where Eric gets the idea that it is still "incredibly powerful" from because it isn't. Weight, time out of cover, DPS, to make it respectable DPS you have to stand in plain sight waiting for ramp up time etc. Far too many variables to even make the gun passable even in camping scenario's.

BW's balance team leaves a lot to be desired here.

[IrishDeath420]

death_for_sale wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.

OMG, omg! Typhoon so powerful, everybody has it at X and using it to clear platinum  in 10 mins! Check this out, Typhoon the most powerful gun in the game, that's why ALL speedruns done with Typhoons, not Claymores or Krysaes or Piranhas!

The fact a Reegar can stop a teleporting banshee, but Typhoon X can't means that Typhoon is really powerful & an amazing boss killer as it is supposed to be! Even if you have to use 4 clips to kill a Banshee on platinum with extended barrel!

Oh and the fact its time to kill has been increased twice doesn't mean it's been dethroned as best gun evar, IT HAS MULTIPLIERS THAT MAKE YOU WET YOUR PANTS!

Gamemako's calculations and maths show the truth about this game. Obviously.

Don't get mad at him, you're the one who posted a video thinking you were going to show how badly the weapon was broken, when actually all you showed is that it roughly takes 6 more seconds to kill an Atlas at range. You showed it with an additional 5% RoF balance reduction from Devastator mode as well, so in effect, it was closer to a 4 second difference.

How fast can a caster class take one down with powers, not counting Demolisher uber nade spam?

Wait you don't want to include the ROF nerf for Devestator Mode? Wouldn't it still be slower on any other class? And besides, which other class do you plan on using this weapon with?

Again you are assuming that every 1 knows how to reload cancel, their going to have a level 10 Typhoon, shooting at the biggest, easiest to hit target, with no other enemy shooting them from behind, with the best consumables.
 
I think under all those circumstance 13 seconds was way too long.

It might take a little longer to take down at Atlas with biotic explosions, but your not taking into account AOE. Every biotic explosion on that Atlas is going to mess up everything around it.

Modifié par IrishDeath420, 08 août 2012 - 04:58 .

[Transairion]

2. If you don't know how to reload cancel, you don't belong above Silver. Let's be very real at this point, if someone plays this game at a high level and doesn't know about this mechanic yet, they are either stupid or being carried though games by more talented friends.

Way to discriminate: just because we're aware of the mechanic doesn't mean we have to use it. It isn't even broadcast in the ingame tips so there's no way to know unless you go onto the forums or find it by accident. Even so, it certainly isn't a requirement to playing the game on Gold or Platnium...

Also, I noticed this thread isn't stickied anymore... too much negative feedback?

[Eelectrica]

Hypertion wrote...

yeah i got it to 3 with Particle Rifle at 2.. still worse off than the particle rifle..

my final thoughts on the N7 Typhoon... Bioware has no clue how to actually balance this game...

Apparently the Typhoon is awesome in Excel or your favorite spreadsheet program, destroys atlases, Banshees, etc.
Still haven't unlocked it, so don't know if it's a Typhoon or light shower.

[Fang92]

death_for_sale wrote...

1. I said that by not including the RoF balance change, the video is flawed. I DO want it counted.

If the RoF nerf was counted the TTK would still be longer since devastator mode has an inherent RoF buff even before its appropriate evolution.

[WaffleCrab]

death_for_sale wrote...

IrishDeath420 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.

OMG, omg! Typhoon so powerful, everybody has it at X and using it to clear platinum  in 10 mins! Check this out, Typhoon the most powerful gun in the game, that's why ALL speedruns done with Typhoons, not Claymores or Krysaes or Piranhas!

The fact a Reegar can stop a teleporting banshee, but Typhoon X can't means that Typhoon is really powerful & an amazing boss killer as it is supposed to be! Even if you have to use 4 clips to kill a Banshee on platinum with extended barrel!

Oh and the fact its time to kill has been increased twice doesn't mean it's been dethroned as best gun evar, IT HAS MULTIPLIERS THAT MAKE YOU WET YOUR PANTS!

Gamemako's calculations and maths show the truth about this game. Obviously.

Don't get mad at him, you're the one who posted a video thinking you were going to show how badly the weapon was broken, when actually all you showed is that it roughly takes 6 more seconds to kill an Atlas at range. You showed it with an additional 5% RoF balance reduction from Devastator mode as well, so in effect, it was closer to a 4 second difference.

How fast can a caster class take one down with powers, not counting Demolisher uber nade spam?

Wait you don't want to include the ROF nerf for Devestator Mode? Wouldn't it still be slower on any other class? And besides, which other class do you plan on using this weapon with?

Again you are assuming that every 1 knows how to reload cancel, their going to have a level 10 Typhoon, shooting at the biggest, easiest to hit target, with no other enemy shooting them from behind, with the best consumables.
 
I think under all those circumstance 13 seconds was way too long.

It might take a little longer to take down at Atlas with biotic explosions, but your not taking into account AOE. Every biotic explosion on that Atlas is going to mess up everything around it.

1. I said that by not including the RoF balance change, the video is flawed. I DO want it counted.

2. If you don't know how to reload cancel, you don't belong above Silver. Let's be very real at this point, if someone plays this game at a high level and doesn't know about this mechanic yet, they are either stupid or being carried though games by more talented friends.

3. The test was done on Platinum, a special 'challenge' mode. All powers and weapons are balanced around Gold. The same weapon will kill a boss faster on Gold. I swear the worst thing BW could have done was give out more credits for Platinum because now there is an incentive to farm it instead of it simply being a challenge level for people who said the game was too easy.

Now, in my own opinion, the change was slightly overzealous and will probably get buffed back a bit later. But posting and supporting flawed comparison videos doesn't help anything.

Death nailed it

[Esther]

I have changed my Typhoon IV for the Revenant X on Gold just for fun, yet on Platinum I still think that Typhoon is better.
The one thing which really annoys me since the Typhoon nerf is that you now need to reload the weapon before killing a boss and it consumes too much of ammo in general.

[A Wild Snorlax]

Gamemako is a moron, the numbers don't tell the whole story numbnuts. Spec7er > you.

The typhoon sucks now. The balancing team thinks it's still great because they play bronze and silver

The balancing team sucks, just give up allready. You are ruining the game with your over the top nerfs, your buffs are small and pointless. I for one have almost stopped playing.

[ryoldschool]

WaffleCrab wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

IrishDeath420 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

You can see the math in action in videos like Sp3c7eR's video, where he purports to show how much it is nerfed and inadvertently showing how insanely powerful it actually is.

OMG, omg! Typhoon so powerful, everybody has it at X and using it to clear platinum  in 10 mins! Check this out, Typhoon the most powerful gun in the game, that's why ALL speedruns done with Typhoons, not Claymores or Krysaes or Piranhas!

The fact a Reegar can stop a teleporting banshee, but Typhoon X can't means that Typhoon is really powerful & an amazing boss killer as it is supposed to be! Even if you have to use 4 clips to kill a Banshee on platinum with extended barrel!

Oh and the fact its time to kill has been increased twice doesn't mean it's been dethroned as best gun evar, IT HAS MULTIPLIERS THAT MAKE YOU WET YOUR PANTS!

Gamemako's calculations and maths show the truth about this game. Obviously.

Don't get mad at him, you're the one who posted a video thinking you were going to show how badly the weapon was broken, when actually all you showed is that it roughly takes 6 more seconds to kill an Atlas at range. You showed it with an additional 5% RoF balance reduction from Devastator mode as well, so in effect, it was closer to a 4 second difference.

How fast can a caster class take one down with powers, not counting Demolisher uber nade spam?

Wait you don't want to include the ROF nerf for Devestator Mode? Wouldn't it still be slower on any other class? And besides, which other class do you plan on using this weapon with?

Again you are assuming that every 1 knows how to reload cancel, their going to have a level 10 Typhoon, shooting at the biggest, easiest to hit target, with no other enemy shooting them from behind, with the best consumables.
 
I think under all those circumstance 13 seconds was way too long.

It might take a little longer to take down at Atlas with biotic explosions, but your not taking into account AOE. Every biotic explosion on that Atlas is going to mess up everything around it.

1. I said that by not including the RoF balance change, the video is flawed. I DO want it counted.

2. If you don't know how to reload cancel, you don't belong above Silver. Let's be very real at this point, if someone plays this game at a high level and doesn't know about this mechanic yet, they are either stupid or being carried though games by more talented friends.

3. The test was done on Platinum, a special 'challenge' mode. All powers and weapons are balanced around Gold. The same weapon will kill a boss faster on Gold. I swear the worst thing BW could have done was give out more credits for Platinum because now there is an incentive to farm it instead of it simply being a challenge level for people who said the game was too easy.

Now, in my own opinion, the change was slightly overzealous and will probably get buffed back a bit later. But posting and supporting flawed comparison videos doesn't help anything.

Death nailed it

Without specter's video we would just be listening to a bunch of numbers crunchers.  His video is the best evidence of the nerf, and only by chance did he have the original video.

The snobbish comment about reload canceling is humorous considering his stance guns being overpowered.

[pisonmison]

bioware why dont listen to the community,hm?

[AbhijitSM]

pisonmison wrote...

bioware why dont listen to the community,hm?

I think they are done with this thread/weapon for a while for sure. Even if they have to look at balancing typhoon again it won't be before atleast a good one or two months.

Modifié par AbhijitSM, 08 août 2012 - 01:45 .

[LadyAlekto]

Since you guys want an opinion of the typhoon, here is finally one from me, finally got it, and as a revenant lover i got to test it immediately

My thoughts:
Roughly 10% damage increase from 44.4-55.5 to 49-61
Movement decrease like revenant when firing, like revenant not for heavys like batarians
Lesser fast settling of the recoil, this gun is recoilless, takes some of the feel of fielding a lmg
Maybe, just maybe, a slight reduce in the windup time, unless a kroguard or detroyer wields it, you can get easily stopped to fire it at all, this is on this gun as much a problem as with the ppr (whoms heatup time imho should be cut in half)

[soldo9149]

So how about rebuffing the damage to 2.0 and we will love you bioware.

[alex13111]

This nerf has seriously weakened this gun. Granted, it was my first new Earth gun (even acquired it before the Harrier), but still. It was a great gun for being Ultra Rare, now it sucks.

[Krantzstone]

[Biizz]

Never got to use this gun Pre-nerf but I got it to level 2 after the nerf and this gun is seriously trash. There needs to be an uproar, I can't believe how bad it is. Honestly I think I could do more damage with an Avenger, I KNOW for a fact that it isn't better than the Phaeston which is a complete joke.

If this trend of putting out new weapons only to nerf them into the ground continues I might have to think about giving up on ME3.