901 réponses à ce sujet

[tMc Tallgeese]

@Eric - Seemed like an overall good rebalance. Do notice the change more so on low level enemies, but then again it is a suppression weapon and boss killer. Still able to do significant damage to Banshees/Primes/Atlas/Brutes/Ravagers without using any amps on the Destroyer, which I imagine the gun was intended for. Was a bit shocked at first when reading the balance changes, but glad to now know about it's reduction % qualities.

[Freskione2]

aliteDC wrote...

And I still don't have it

me either 

[ryoldschool]

tMc Tallgeese wrote...

@Eric - Seemed like an overall good rebalance. Do notice the change more so on low level enemies, but then again it is a suppression weapon and boss killer. Still able to do significant damage to Banshees/Primes/Atlas/Brutes/Ravagers without using any amps on the Destroyer, which I imagine the gun was intended for. Was a bit shocked at first when reading the balance changes, but glad to now know about it's reduction % qualities.

Well I guess you won't be using it on your Demolisher any more...

[Killahead]

Booshnickins wrote...

The problem with your idea is that you want things nerfed because of how one particular class, if setup up a certain way, performs with a specific weapon. So "balancing" that weapon to that one very specific setup is just ignorant. That same weapon can be just fine with that same class setup differently or any other class for that matter. Yet when you tweak a weapon for one build, it generally renders it useless on all other classes and builds. Now how is that "balanced"?

I've never said this and those who know my arguments from other threads know that this isn't my approach at all. Don't know where you're getting this from.

In fact, for this very reason have I been opposed to a Piranha nerf because I don't consider it OP on classes without accuracy bonuses. My suggestion in the discussion about that particular gun was to remove accuracy bonuses from Hunter and Devastator mode for shotguns only. The classes in question do after all get huge damage bonuses on top, so shotguns would still be very powerful in their hands.

But this is derailing the thread.

[Gockey]

PKTracer wrote...

People definitely will camp.  The Typhoon at least had the weakness where people are exposed when using it.  But I'm sure people came up with ways to minimize this weakness.

I also think the chances of BW un-nerfing the Typhoon are slim to none.   I have seen nerfs from BW, a lot of them, yet I've never seen BW reverse a nerf.  I'm just happy I experienced the Typhoon pre-nerf., even at level I, and I feel for the people who get it post-nerf.

Then you've not been around that long.

Eric Fagnan wrote... 

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March 13, 2012
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Vindicator Assault Rifle
- Damage decreased from [68.6-85.8] to [62.4-78.0] 

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July 18, 2012
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Vindicator Assault Rifle
-Damage increased from [62.4-78.0] to [68.6-85.8] 

Thats the only one I remembered.

[Stardusk]

I tried it post -nerf; only have it at I, but I need almost all the ammo to take out an Atlas.

[notorious_thug123]

Gockey wrote...

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Eric, with all due respect, the weapon right now feels useless as compared to before. A Typhoon cannot take out an Atlas as quickly as before, has poor mobility and poor accuracy. Revenant outclasses it in mobility alone and at mid range it can take down bosses just as quickly. So I can't really see the 50% inherent bonus damage to protections because I played with both last night.

Before, it took me 160 bullets to kill an Atlas. Right now 220 bullets leave an Atlas with half armor. The damage output has been reduced drastically, including damage versus mooks. 

To get the best out of the weapon you need to keep firing as opposed to any other assault rifle due to the ramp-up time. That, along with the fact it's an ultra rare should guarantee high damage output like it had before. Right now it's just a bad weapon to use, there are other weapons that do its job more efficiently without the necessity of you being exposed, taking fire or ramping up the weapon while a phantom's slashing at you.

Please consider increasing the ramp-up time to further reduce it's mobility (slightly) so the "hold position and supress" element is emphasised, but reverse the nerfs to damage and penetration. That way it will keep its niche as a deployable machine gun.

Thanks for opening a discussion about this.

 


This.  

[Stinja]

I had the Typhoon day 1, and it felt really good on the Destroyer; maybe a touch too good, but then that's optimising a build and mods around a gun.
On the Demolisher it was good, but I used it more for long range shots (given first three-five bullets are quite accurate), and mopping up bosses between grenades.

Post nerf(s) it is awful on the Demolisher, and only ok on the Destoryer. One could say its been balanced against others guns on this one character, but it's not good at all (as in better options) on anything else.

I'm not sure if both this and the Particle rifle have these wind up times to make them invalid with tactical clock, but they are not generally good on gold, as the exposed time gets you killed. Maybe BW needs to check the average time people expose themselves to fire, and balance DPS around that?

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Lowered weight would serve no purpose because I guarantee you won't see biotics running around with it. 

depends how light, justicars might use, given they are both tanky and have an AR weight reduction evolution. I tried the per-nerf version, but it doubles your Reave time. Maybe if I had it at X it might be doable, but the Graal is as heavy as I like to go on the Justicar, and I don't see them lightening the Typhoon that much.

It does need something to warrant its UR status IMO, but I'd not like to hazard what that is.

I do like the comment earlier about giving other assault rifles the bonus damage vs protections: so many need something to make them competitive vs other gun categories, and this would mean no changes to current stats.

[BoomDynamite]

Gockey wrote...

PKTracer wrote...

People definitely will camp.  The Typhoon at least had the weakness where people are exposed when using it.  But I'm sure people came up with ways to minimize this weakness.

I also think the chances of BW un-nerfing the Typhoon are slim to none.   I have seen nerfs from BW, a lot of them, yet I've never seen BW reverse a nerf.  I'm just happy I experienced the Typhoon pre-nerf., even at level I, and I feel for the people who get it post-nerf.

Then you've not been around that long.

Eric Fagnan wrote... 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
March 13, 2012
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Vindicator Assault Rifle
- Damage decreased from [68.6-85.8] to [62.4-78.0] 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 18, 2012
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Vindicator Assault Rifle
-Damage increased from [62.4-78.0] to [68.6-85.8] 

Thats the only one I remembered.

They also un-buffed Smash's cooldown.

[Rifneno]

I just took a typhoon 2 and a locust 10 into a geth silver to see. Both weapons have about the same damage per bullet. Recorded it with fraps so I could observe frame-by-frame. No devastator mode. All weapon damage evolutions.

Rocket trooper. 900 shields on silver. Took 16 shots from the typhoon to bring down its shields. This is consistent with no shield damage modifier. Next one I got I killed with the locust. Again, 16 shots to bring down its shields.

I do not believe the typhoon has any modifier beyond the armor penetration one.

[Relix28]

Sp3c7eR wrote...

Eric, with all due respect, the weapon right now feels useless as compared to before. A Typhoon cannot take out an Atlas as quickly as before, has poor mobility and poor accuracy. Revenant outclasses it in mobility alone and at mid range it can take down bosses just as quickly. So I can't really see the 50% inherent bonus damage to protections because I played with both last night.

Before, it took me 160 bullets to kill an Atlas. Right now 220 bullets leave an Atlas with half armor. The damage output has been reduced drastically, including damage versus mooks.

To get the best out of the weapon you need to keep firing as opposed to any other assault rifle due to the ramp-up time. That, along with the fact it's an ultra rare should guarantee high damage output like it had before. Right now it's just a bad weapon to use, there are other weapons that do its job more efficiently without the necessity of you being exposed, taking fire or ramping up the weapon while a phantom's slashing at you.

Please consider increasing the ramp-up time to further reduce it's mobility (slightly) so the "hold position and supress" element is emphasised, but reverse the nerfs to damage and penetration. That way it will keep its niche as a deployable machine gun.

Thanks for opening a discussion about this.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I was using the Typhoon since day one. Before the nerf, it used to be a powerful niche weapon, but it definitelly wasn't OP. If anything, it was a very well balanced weapon. It's incredible sustained fire damage output was offset by it's weight, rarity, recoil and ramp-up mechanic. And right now, all the those rahter big drawbacks are still there, while it's only advantage (sustained fire damage output) got nerfed.  ???
You can tell me that the Typhoon has a 500000000000000x multiplier against everything, but it still won't change the fact that the gun feels underpowered now. Like I said, it used to be a niche weapon with a lot of drawbacks and a massive damage output, and now it's a niche weapon with a lot of drawbacks and a somewhat underwhelming damage output. The last balance change made it unbalanced, and not in a good way.

[Reapinger]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Just to clarify a few things on the recent N7 Typhoon balance changes...

We've done a lot of internal tests on the N7 Typhoon comparing it to other assault rifles and other weapons, and even with the recent nerf it is still incredibly powerful. One of the reasons for this is that the weapon has an inherit 50% damage bonus versus armor, shields, and barriers. This far outclasses other weapons in terms of damage bonuses against resistances. The Revenant, for example, does not get this bonus and does regular damage to armor, shields, and barriers.

As always, we'll keep an eye on the balance of the N7 Typhoon, but if you have the weapon please test it out in game against different enemies to see how it feels. The numbers can often be deceiving so it's difficult to tell how effective a weapon is on paper.

Which character did you test with internally? The entire lot or certain known characters that skew any weapons output?

As mentioned earlier, we did many tests on a variety of kits, mods, builds.

Fail to see how this gun could be viable on any class that is even remotely power dependent. The tradeoff was evident and then it was nerfed. 

[Pedactor]

Here's what the gun is great for:

1) Destroyer
2) Human Soldier
3) Krogan Sentinel

You have to be able to stay out of cover for extended periods of time. Same for the Collector Rifle.

It benefits the most from Adrenaline Rush. You can continuously burn through clips endlessly and it does ungodly damage even post nerf.

[Rifneno]

Wait, is this "50% bonus" the 1.5x modifier we all already knew about? Because the typhoon is barely more than a locust without the mod we already knew about.

[ryoldschool]

Pedactor wrote...

Here's what the gun is great for:

1) Destroyer
2) Human Soldier
3) Krogan Sentinel

You have to be able to stay out of cover for extended periods of time. Same for the Collector Rifle.

It benefits the most from Adrenaline Rush. You can continuously burn through clips endlessly and it does ungodly damage even post nerf.

Whats the cooldown on Arush with a typhoon?

[Lexa_D]

For lack of having one meself, will back my betters, i.e. Sp3c7eR

[Broganisity]

It gets bonuses to all damage protection types?

While I don't have the weapon, I believe if other weapons received some barrier/shields damage bonus it might convince people to carry a sidearm or even start picking some weapons over others based on the situation.

For example: in the SMG department, the hurricane currently reigns supreme to most people. If the Locust had a large bonus to barriers/shields damage and the hurricane lacked this bonus, people might carry the locust as a sidearm more to deal with defenses.

Mind you I believe this should only apply to weapons in the same rarity group. A Scimitar and a Pirhana are similar weapons, but the pirhana is easily superior to the Scimitar, as its essentially meant to be a dirrect upgrade. Don't change that.

But comparing, say, the Widow to the Kyrsae. Both are Gold rarity but they serve different purposes. As such one should not be nerfed to be brought in line with the other. The Krysae can do solid damage to a small cluster of groups, but the Widow is easily the better Boss Slayer.

Modifié par Broganisity, 03 août 2012 - 08:31 .

[Adhok42]

You stuck the equivilant of a .50 cal machine gun into the game and expected it to be as weak as the Predator?

....

Eric I am disappoint.

Seriously, I really am.

You stuck a weapon, one that relates to one of my favorite weapons systems, in the game, that is known to be one of the most feared weapon systems that you DON'T want to be looking down the barrel of unless you're the one with the finger on the trigger, and you want to weaken it.

........

*throws hands up in the air* I give up. I am just not going to understand what is with this "balancing" you're trying to do. Not everything is meant to be equal guys. The Reverent may not be the same level as the Typhoon but it's a good substitute to tide you over UNTIL you get the Typhoon if you're like me and the RNG just doesn't gift you with such fortune.

Why must you "Balance" everything to make it equal? Equality does not give Variety. For there to be variety there must be a certain amount of suck to some things with only the rarest, most coveted, being able to do it all.

I believe I told Derek something similar when he asked a question I think went something like "Do you think there are enough weapons for people of each skill level and do you think they slide upwards as you develop enough skill with them?"

I believe I said "Derek if you have to ask this question then we have a problem."

Now here is the problem. People are ether getting so jealous of other people having a weapon they want or just for attention are trying to ruin the game for others.

The Krysae is a good example.

I never got it.

Take a look at my manifest. It's still greyed out after 2 months while everyone else seems to have it at least on level 1 and were able to talk about how good it was, whine about it, and then cheer when it was reduced to crap.

Leaving those like me who never got the chance to even fire it ONCE to see for ourselves what the fuss was about now wondering if the weapon was any good to begin with because our starting point is skewed with how you did it dirty.

And that was a Rare.

Now you're looking at turning a UR, one that almost NOBODY can get unless they grind for hours or spend tremendous amounts of money, into another Krysae.

From what I hear about the Typhoon it's fine as is and was before you turned the multiplier down. Now I'll never be able to find out how OP it may or may not have been because my reference point is skewed due to only being able to hear about it second hand.

This is what I heard about it from my Delta Squad since I'm the only one who doesn't have it.

It sucks against Geth.

The Harrier is better.

The spool up time makes it difficult but not harsh.

You burn through ammo fast.

It's too heavy to be used on power oriented classes.

It's only good on weapons platform classes who don't have to give a damn about weight.

That last one I think is what makes it so coveted. Weapon oriented classes like the Soldier I hear people whine about constantly that it doesn't stack up against power oriented classes because all the weapons suck.

You give them a few good weapons to balance them against the Adepts and the Vanguards and the next thing you know people whine about how OP they are and that they must be "balanced"

There's was already balance to begin with! It made the weapons specialty classes comparable to the Adepts and their BE slinging!

The hell is wrong with you people?!?!

Balance requires view of the largest picture possible. That's not something you can obtain by focusing in too much on one specific thing like the the weapon itself. It's a domino effect. You tap one and the whole thing comes clattering down bit by bit.

You focus too much on one end of the scale and the other end falls out of whack.

Christ.

[Poison_Berrie]

Sulaco_7 wrote...

Is the 50% innate damage against armor, shields, barriers different than what the AP mod does? In other words, if I equip an AP mod to the gun, will it do even more damage against armor (in addition to the innate damage)?

No. This is like what certain power evolutions do.
That is it takes the final damage of the weapon, checks if it's used against armor, shield or barrier and than adds half of the final damage to total damage.

Base Damage * (Passive, Amps and power bonuses) * 1.5 (ramp up) * 1.5 (Armor/Barrier/Shields) = Total Damage

A Typhoon I with extended barrel and Piercing mod on a Human Soldier would, when revved up, do:

44.5 * (1 + 0.275 + 0.25) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 152.69 damage against shields and barriers and (-17.5) 135.19 against armor.

That said, there are those saying that those multipliers aren't working properly.

EDIT: A surprising amount of people that don't seem to understand the implication of what the 50% multiplier against defenses means or be able to comprehend it. Probably why people underrate Incinerate.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 03 août 2012 - 08:28 .

[Kiernin]

BoomDynamite wrote...

Mozts wrote...

This kind of attention is really great for us, forumers (and makes Admin's job much easier).

Keep up and Balance ALL the things.

And since you're here... Will the missing mods require patch(download style) or they just need to be "unlocked" through .ini changes? Any ETA?

They need a patch. Priestly already said that. I dunno' about any ETA though.

Well, if DLC count as a 'patch', prolly early September?

[Star fury]

Gockey wrote...

Then you've not been around that long.

Eric Fagnan wrote... 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
March 13, 2012
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vindicator Assault Rifle
- Damage decreased from [68.6-85.8] to [62.4-78.0] 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
July 18, 2012
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Vindicator Assault Rifle
-Damage increased from [62.4-78.0] to [68.6-85.8] 

Thats the only one I remembered.

There is a another one, example of GREAT Bioware's idea of balance.

Strict31 wrote...

...where even buffs need nerfs

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June 12, 2012
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Smash Power
- Base cooldown decreased from 8 to 5 seconds

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July 31, 2012
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Smash Power
- Base cooldown increased from 5 to 8 seconds

[Thoragoros]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Just to clarify a few things on the recent N7 Typhoon balance changes...

We've done a lot of internal tests on the N7 Typhoon comparing it to other assault rifles and other weapons, and even with the recent nerf it is still incredibly powerful. One of the reasons for this is that the weapon has an inherit 50% damage bonus versus armor, shields, and barriers. This far outclasses other weapons in terms of damage bonuses against resistances. The Revenant, for example, does not get this bonus and does regular damage to armor, shields, and barriers.

As always, we'll keep an eye on the balance of the N7 Typhoon, but if you have the weapon please test it out in game against different enemies to see how it feels. The numbers can often be deceiving so it's difficult to tell how effective a weapon is on paper.

All of that is situational.

Yes, the Typhoon is better against bosses than most other "rifle" type weapons.  However, and this is especially true since the Nerf, I get better "overall" performance out of my Revenant, since there is no wind-up, it is lighter, and is much, much better in close-combat situations, and given a stability-dampner, has almost zero noticeable recoil at level 10.

Since the Nerf, I am not even tempted to use my Typhoon, because the Revenant's flexbility now far outweights, for me, the Typhoon's somewhat better performance against bosses.

Also, I can replicate the Typhoon's bonuses against bosses by equiping AR bonuses and Consumables, so really, I have no use for the Typhoon anymore.

EDIT

And bring back the SmashGuards and SmashAdepts!  That Nerf was totally unnecessary!  Who on earth was complaining about the cooldown on Smash?!

Modifié par Thoragoros, 03 août 2012 - 08:38 .

[Omnifarious Nef]

PKTracer wrote...

Sp3c7rer supplied quanitified outcomes of the pre-nerf/post-nerf Typhoon. It took him 160 bullets to take down an Atlas pre-nerf; it took him 220 to take down only half of the Atlas's shield post-nerf. That's huge. Clearly, this nerf is major, and if there's a math problem, its impact is more than significant. Until BW can sort out the math down to the last variable, and with certainty, this nerf ought to be reversed.

He went from killing it, to taking only 50% of it's shield down? WIth even more ammo? That's over a 75% decrease in firepower! That's wayyy to big of a nerf for an Ultra-rare.

[exeviper]

Hm, after reading all this still dont agree. in all honesty trying using it in platinum and see how weak it is. thats the problem in gold and platinum its just not worth doesn't do enough damage to say its a ultra rare. you get knocked back hell of alot, which causes u to stop firing and revamp ... it just gets u killed.. nerf needs to be rolled back period. i have used it i know damage it does.