21 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanilka]

Hello~

I have a question about the importance of strength for rogues with Lethality talent.

My current rogue is a ranger/duelist and uses dual daggers. Naturally, I've taken Lethality to make up for the lack of strength and have been focusing on dexterity and cunning. Generally, my rogue has been doing fine so far.

However, I've been wondering whether strength isn't good for something after all, equipment requirements aside. According to the game, "if the rogue's cunning score is greater than strength, sharpness of mind lets the character use the cunning modifier to affect attack damage in place of the strength modifier." What about accuracy?

Is it a waste to add a point to strength (above 20) with a rogue with Lethality from time to time? Does it contribute to anything? (I intend to transfer the character into Awakening, so I'd like to know whether I've been wasting my points before it shows.)

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 03 août 2012 - 11:38 .

[jhood_shsu]

24 str including bonuses is all you need for Awakening. What will really help is determining if you want to have a cunning rogue build or a dexterity rogue build.

If you want to build a cunning rogue, you need enough Dex to get talents and weapons (52 for all DW talents I believe) and the rest into cunning.

For a Dex rogue, you need 30 in cunning the rest into Dex.

The great thing about Awakening is that you can re-roll your stats to correct any issues you make in Origins

[Blazomancer]

It is almost useless to put points in strength after getting lethality. One point in dex will give you much more benefit including attack, & defense. Nothing to worry about awakening, you can respec using them manuals of focus.
So strength is pretty much useless for a dw rogue unless you want to equip heavier armor.

[tpp]

According to the game, "if the rogue's cunning score is greater than strength, sharpness of mind lets the character use the cunning modifier to affect attack damage in place of the strength modifier." What about accuracy?

But if you're using daggers already and concerned about your hit rate, why not just put that point into Dex instead? Then it improves both damage and hit rate. And defense too. Dex is just better than Str in this case. The trickier question is to what extent you need to care about hit rate at all. Ideally, you have the gear and party support to just ignore it entirely and put everything you can into Cunning, but that depends on how the whole party is constructed and geared.

edit: ninja'd by Blazo

Modifié par tpp, 04 août 2012 - 07:28 .

[Vanilka]

Thank you all for nice replies. They are very helpful.

@jhood_shsu
I must admit I haven't quite decided. But I think I'm going to put more points to dexterity. However, I simply don't feel like keeping one much lower than the other. Is it unwise to keep them more or less balanced?
When it comes to combat, I must say I usually decide the fighting style by the situation. I don't always go for backstabs, nor do I always go from the front, and I'm pretty happy with my character's performance so far. But I guess it's better to focus on one or the other, isn't it?

Huh? You can change your stats in Awakening? That's good to know. Will it take the points and talents learnt through the various tomes into account? It does, doesn't it?


@Blazomancer
[Nods and takes notes.] Manuals of Focus, got it.

I plan to keep using light armour and daggers, so I guess strength is indeed redundant in my case.


@tpp
Err, what can I say. I'm still learning. But yes, if dexterity also deals with both hit rate and damage, then I guess that's the way I want to go.

I must say I like to make my characters a bit more self-reliant - not the most powerfully or efficiently built ever, but characters that won't be useless in any kind of situation and that will be fun to play. Of course, I do rely on the companions and strategy, but in the end it's nice to have a character that's actually able to hit her target. Maybe I'm just thinking too much.

In my current playthrough, I tend to change the party members for fun. However, I usually take Alistair (heavy armour), Wynne (can both heal and damage) and Zevran (light armour, dual daggers) and they seem to work pretty well together. I also summon an animal companion to help.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 04 août 2012 - 01:50 .

[jhood_shsu]

There is nothing wrong theoretically with a balanced character, however focusing on one or the other improves the character greatly.

If you play like me and tend to take on everyone and everything head on, then you want to build a Dex rogue. Dex not only helps attack, it also helps your defense. Its possible in later levels to get your defense high enough that the only attacks that hit you are special attacks (ie tackle from mabari or grabs from ogres.

If you want to take a more stealthy approach and use stealth and backstabs then cunning is your friend. Cunning pumps the critical damage number which makes it key for backstabs.

And yes, any points you have on your character from tomes will carry over with manuals of focus.

Here is a cunning build I had (finished all the dlc after awakening with it as well) social.bioware.com/playerprofile.php

Modifié par jhood_shsu, 05 août 2012 - 01:17 .

[Vanilka]

@jhood_shsu
Well, I do perform backstabs from time to time and also happily benefit from Coup De Grace talent, but I must admit I'm not much into sneaking myself. Not with my current character. She doesn't have any Stealth talents whatsoever. I gladly leave that to Zevran. So, I guess it's a dexterity based rogue for me.

I've actually started Awakening already. My rogue has slightly higher dexterity than cunning. She's doing strangely well though. Enemies fall one after another while not hurting her much. I had to check the options whether my game hadn't reset to Easy. I guess I should finally start playing on Hard. Nathaniel keeps fainting like a fly though. Despite my keeping him out of melee. I'm doing something wrong. :/

However, I've started putting more points to dexterity with your advice in mind. Thank you for helping me decide.

The link you've posted unfortunately doesn't work - it doesn't lead to any particular page. But I had a look at your profile and I think I know what you mean. I think I've put unnecessarily many points to strength (23) after all. On the other hand, I don't have any item bonuses that would add to it. Not yet anyway. I don't have the heart to part my Mahariel with her Dalish equipment.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 05 août 2012 - 11:29 .

[Corker]

IME, Nate draws crazy aggro. Archers do mad, mad damage in Awakening, and he's forever attracting the attention of Big Bads.

[mousestalker]

Dex is a very good stat for Awakening. You will likely get a dual weapon wielding rogue for a companion in Awakening (Big hint: Not Nate). Take a good hard look at that rogue's stats and talents.

In Origins, one of the more fun teams I've had was a concept team of three rogues and Morrigan. Why three rogues? We were all rangers you see and had spider animal companions and Morrie can shapeshift into a spider.

[Vanilka]

@Corker
Oh, damn. It seems he'll have to be a good boy and do nothing unless I tell him otherwise then. I usually end up disabling the tactics almost completely and micromanaging the whole group anyway. The companions tend to do outrageous things otherwise. Such as wasting Dirty Fighting on dying or stun-resistant enemies. I still haven't figured out why he keeps switching to his bow when I tell him to go melee once in a while. Come on, Nathaniel, dear, I know you love your grandfather's bow... but who the heck shoots enemies from 20 centimetres? He might as well stab them with the arrows.


@mousestalker
I see. I'll keep an eye out for the character then.

Hah, that picture is priceless. You seriously should think of a cool name for this team. I've only given the ranger specialisation to my Dalish so far, for roleplay reasons. But I can see how three rangers can be fun to play. The spiders are pretty useful, too. I shudder everytime I summon one, heh, but I use it quite a lot.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 10 août 2012 - 08:53 .

[Blazomancer]

Haha, that's an awesome pic. The battles would be crazy. lol

@Vanilka - It seems Nate's behaviour is set to ranged, you can change it to default, and he'll swap to melee weapons when meleed.

[Arthur Cousland]

If you want your companions to stick with melee or range, take their secondary weapon away so they're forced to use their main weapon.

If you're worried about raising strength for equipment requirements, the +10 strength boost from Legionnaire Scout will do the trick, with strength boosting accessories doing the rest (key to the city, ring of the warrior, etc.).

Is your warden the main lock picker? With 70 cunning, you won't need any deft hands talents, so that's a good number to shoot for. I believe 50-52 dexterity is the max requirement for rogue talents, with 40-44 being the max for daggers and bows. If your attack rating is 90-100%, you don't need to worry about raising dexterity for that purpose, but it also makes you hard to hit, which can only be a good thing. After that, a bit of constitution couldn't hurt, in case you become the victim of a blighted shadow wolf's overwhelm, or if you plan to play Golems of Amgarrak later.

To keep Nathaniel alive, I like to give him decoy and ghost to use when his health drops below 75%-50% or so. Also, putting him on passive behavior will keep him from shooting anything that moves. Just make sure that he attacks the same enemy as the warden or the tank.

[Vanilka]

@Blazomancer
Ah! Thanks for telling me. I didn't pay attention to that part of the screen at all before you said that. You would have thought I could have noticed after three playthroughs... It's true I never had this problem before.


@Arthur Cousland
I usually give each companion both ranged and melee weapons - well, wherever possible. I like to be prepared for everything. In case of... unexpected dragons of epic proportions, for example. But I see what you mean. I guess, I could simply take the bow away for a while if I needed him in melee so badly. I'll try changing the behaviour, as Blazomancer recommends, and see what happens. I can take the bow away as the plan B.

To answer your question: Yes, my Warden is the main lockpicker. She has all the lockpicking talents. I hope lockpicking and coercion won't become a problem with a dexterity based rogue. Hm, from what the wiki says, coercion should be all right with all the persuasion skills - even with relatively low cunning or strength. If I understand correctly, that is. I can't find much about the lockpicking mechanics though. However, if Device Mastery adds 40 points to cunning while opening locks, I should be okay with that and about 50 points in cunning to open every chest in the game, I guess. Since you say that, with 70 points in cunning, you don't need any of those talents...

Well, I guess I can always rearrange the points if I run into a problem, as others mentioned.

As for Nathaniel, I've already given him the Shadow specialisation, so I guess I should start working on getting the talents. It does sound useful. I've also disabled some of the more annoying tactics and I pay attention to him more. I guess he's going to be all right with some care.

Thank you for advice.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 06 août 2012 - 08:41 .

[jhood_shsu]

damn pc people and their multiple friend summons...

Vanilka, if you have all 4 lockpicking skills then you only need 30 Cunning. That gives you all you need to open all the locks in the game.

Also if you have Nathaniel then I assume you also have Anders and Ogren. Make sure that Ogren is using Threaten at the beginning of battles to draw some of the heat from Nathaniel and Anders, and set Anders to heal specific characters at certain health points.

Somewhere in this mess of threads is a tactics guide that is helpful if you dont want to micro your team.

[Vanilka]

@jhood_shsu
I see. Good. Then I don't have to worry about lockpicking anymore.

Yes, I take Nathaniel, Anders and Oghren. I let Oghren use Threaten - I think he even has that set by default in his tactics. I've got Justice now, too. Creepy fellow. Sometimes I use him instead of Nathaniel. He seems to be a better tank than Oghren. As for Anders, I've actually set his tactics already and he's mostly doing fine.

Actually, I do want to micromanage my team. I usually disable the tactics almost completely. I prefer to decide by the situation. So, I usually set only the very basic things - healing and such. But it won't hurt to have a look.

[monkeybiz]

Yes, I take Nathaniel, Anders and Oghren. I let Oghren use Threaten - I think he even has that set by default in his tactics. I've got Justice now, too. Creepy fellow. Sometimes I use him instead of Nathaniel.He seems to be a better tank than Oghren.

Justice is more of a weapon + shield character.  Using a shield makes you a better tank over one that uses a 2 handed weapon (Oghren) because of the added defense from the shield. The skills from the weapon and shield tree also makes you better at taking damage.

Actually, I do want to micromanage my team. I usually disable the tactics almost completely. I prefer to decide by the situation. So, I usually set only the very basic things - healing and such. But it won't hurt to have a look.

I micromanaged all my playthroughs. Did exactly what you described here by disabling majority of tactics and making them run off "Default" and only had Anders (or whichever mage) do healing on party members whenever health drops < 50%. Somehow, I just don't trust the AI to make the right decision given the circumstances.

Needless to say, micromanaging works wonders if you do it correctly. I ended up with a tonne of health poulices (and not from crafting). It is far better to micro manage how your team behaves as you are able to eliminate the major threats a lot more efficiently by taking out units faster while migitating damage taken to your characters

[Vanilka]

monkeybiz wrote...
Justice is more of a weapon + shield character.  Using a shield makes you a better tank over one that uses a 2 handed weapon (Oghren) because of the added defense from the shield. The skills from the weapon and shield tree also makes you better at taking damage.

 
I see. That makes sense. I must admit I've never really based my strategies on using a tank though. I can't bring myself to have Alistair receive such abuse.  But I'm trying a little more sensible approach with Awakening. Justice seems to be rather useful so far - mainly for the reasons you mentioned. Though he makes even Sten seem like a merry fellow. 

monkeybiz wrote... 
I micromanaged all my playthroughs. Did exactly what you described here by disabling majority of tactics and making them run off "Default" and only had Anders (or whichever mage) do healing on party members whenever health drops < 50%. Somehow, I just don't trust the AI to make the right decision given the circumstances.

Needless to say, micromanaging works wonders if you do it correctly. I ended up with a tonne of health poulices (and not from crafting). It is far better to micro manage how your team behaves as you are able to eliminate the major threats a lot more efficiently by taking out units faster while migitating damage taken to your characters

I agree wholeheartedly. I prefer to do it like this, as well. For many reasons. I quickly learn what each talent is about and how to use it. I also like to actively participate because it's simply much more fun for me. Also, as you say, the AI seems to be limited. It's frustrating to watch Justice repeatedly attempt to shield-pummel a dragon (by default settings). Sometimes it's just an incredible waste of stamina. It's not possible to fight a boss the same way you fight a bunch of genlocks. Or maybe I'm just too lazy to set it properly. But, as I said, I've never really used it much or wanted to use it. That's why Nathaniel's antics were somewhat mind-boggling for me. By default settings, he sometimes came running from a perfectly safe spot just to throw some sand into our enemy's eyes. Isn't that cute? So, yes, I think I'll leave tactics to people who can and like to use them. I like to have control over everything in combat.

[monkeybiz]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

I see. That makes sense. I must admit I've never really based my strategies on using a tank though. I can't bring myself to have Alistair receive such abuse.  But I'm trying a little more sensible approach with Awakening. Justice seems to be rather useful so far - mainly for the reasons you mentioned. Though he makes even Sten seem like a merry fellow.

Yeah..thats why Alistair was the better tank in Origins! But then again, just because he was the better tank doesn't mean you have to use him as one. Oghren and other warriors make fine tanks as well but just not as effective. Shale also makes a good tank but mainly because she starts off with high constitution. Yeah..agree with that. As a character, Justice is all business and not that much fun personality wise. I think thats the reason why I kept Oghren around so much as some of his dialogue with other party members are hilarious!

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

I agree wholeheartedly. I prefer to do it like this, as well. For many reasons. I quickly learn what each talent is about and how to use it. I also like to actively participate because it's simply much more fun for me. Also, as you say, the AI seems to be limited. It's frustrating to watch Justice repeatedly attempt to shield-pummel a dragon (by default settings). Sometimes it's just an incredible waste of stamina. It's not possible to fight a boss the same way you fight a bunch of genlocks. Or maybe I'm just too lazy to set it properly. But, as I said, I've never really used it much or wanted to use it. That's why Nathaniel's antics were somewhat mind-boggling for me. By default settings, he sometimes came running from a perfectly safe spot just to throw some sand into our enemy's eyes. Isn't that cute? So, yes, I think I'll leave tactics to people who can and like to use them. I like to have control over everything in combat.

It also makes a fight that takes 30 seconds become a minute plus as you got to pause to issue commands but I enjoy the satisfaction of coming out of a battle with minimum damage taken. No I don't think it is lazy to not set it up properly because it clearly doesn't work. Like you said, you wouldn't fight a boss the same way you would a bunch of genlocks. Even amongst a bunch of genlocks, no 2 battle is always the same and you would take different approaches and taking on the the nearest enemy is not always the best approach. Its awfully silly to fight a bunch of genlocks when there is a mage lingering at the back which can do hell of a lot more damage to your party than those 4-5 genlocks at the front could do.

Another reason why tactics doesn't work is the area of effect spells. Spells like flame blast or Cone of Cold does damage to a certain area. You wouldn't want to be casting those if your party members are in the way due to friendly fire. The tactics unforunately does not cater for this and will just cast it anyway. Even then, it is extremely silly because with a spell like CoC, you don't want to cast it directly at the enemy but cast it on an angle that will freeze the most enemies. The AI tactics simply do not cater for it. My favrourite kill combination of CoC + critical hit = shatter simply does not work with tactics so in that sense I have no choice but to disable the tactics and do it manually.

So yeah I've seen my share of stupid tactics. It caused me more frustration than ease of use so I just decided to switch it off completely and run things manually. Its good to know that I wasn't the only one that liked to get my hands dirty and do things manually

Modifié par monkeybiz, 08 août 2012 - 11:45 .

[Blazomancer]

@monkeybiz and vanilka - yes, i can relate with it. When I started playing dao, I too used to disable tactics and do everything on my own. But after a lot of playthroughs, I have come to terms with the tactics screen. Well, I still disbale most of the slots for boss battles, and as monkeybiz already said, using spells like fireball, flameblast, CoC through tactics is really like a hammer on your own foot.

Although the tactics system is buggy, it still is useful if configured properly, like for using poultices triggered by mana or health level, or shattering a target once a tactic is triggered by an enemy getting freezed, or probably configuring each member to concentrate fire on a single target. Setting up your mage to cast force field on any player who is grabbed or overwhelmed is also another example. I mean although the tactics system is overwhelming for new players, and sure as hell it was for me, it is fun to experiment in your subsequent playthroughs.

I'm not urging you to use tactics screen, I'm just saying that the tactics system has potential. In fact, I would say disabling tactics actually helps in learning the game and the different talents much better.

Modifié par Blazomancer, 08 août 2012 - 02:09 .

[monkeybiz]

Blazomancer wrote...

@monkeybiz and vanilka - yes, i can relate with it. When I started playing dao, I too used to disable tactics and do everything on my own. But after a lot of playthroughs, I have come to terms with the tactics screen. Well, I still disbale most of the slots for boss battles, and as monkeybiz already said, using spells like fireball, flameblast, CoC through tactics is really like a hammer on your own foot.

Although the tactics system is buggy, it still is useful if configured properly, like for using poultices triggered by mana or health level, or shattering a target once a tactic is triggered by an enemy getting freezed, or probably configuring each member to concentrate fire on a single target. Setting up your mage to cast force field on any player who is grabbed or overwhelmed is also another example. I mean although the tactics system is overwhelming for new players, and sure as hell it was for me, it is fun to experiment in your subsequent playthroughs.

I'm not urging you to use tactics screen, I'm just saying that the tactics system has potential. In fact, I would say disabling tactics actually helps in learning the game and the different talents much better.

True. I never said I disabled everything, just that I disabled most things but mainly the offensive talents. The defence works well because has got set concise situations such that if event A happens then do this talent/cast this spell.

Offense on the other hand, is completely different because the tactics don't cater for effective play and there are too many variables involved. e.g Activating a spell/talent on the nearest enemy is not necessarily the best thing to do first up in battle. Shattering doesn't always work because if you have multiple companions set to do shatter, then they could potentially all target the same target at the same time and you just waste stamina/mana
As discussed, the AoE spells are much more efficient when done manually due to the precision.

I guess it isn't perfect but I can live with it. 

[Vanilka]

@Blazomancer
I do think that tactics are useful. I apologise if it sounds as if I thought the opposite. Sorry, tactics, I didn't mean it like that. [Pats tactics on the back.] I know you can do a lot with properly set tactics. You've given a few great examples of it. It's definitely a good thing to have the feature in the game, even though I've scarcely used it so far. The thing is, it just doesn't do much for me, personally, for the reasons I've already stated and since I simply enjoy to take the time to control each party member. Even though, as monkeybiz said, it makes some fights take more time than they would with tactics. It's my little game of chess. Just much more exciting.

I also must admit I dislike fiddling with user interface in games. I just got Velanna yesterday and her quickbar was a mess. But, of course, I can't just leave it like that, I simply have to put it into some sort of order, because I hate mess even more than putting things in order. Then I opened her tactics... She isn't into friendly fire much, is she? Ahh! I want to play. I don't want to poke buttons and icons around. Then again, that's my problem, not the game's problem.


@monkeybiz
Exactly as you say, no two fights are the same and even genlocks come in different set-ups, numbers, can have different positions in the area etc. That's one of the reasons I like to decide what to do on the spot.

Moreover, sometimes I like to decide on a whim as to which talent, mode, combination of talents or spells etc. I'm going to use.

I also tend to use talents, spells or items in a way which I can't imagine realised with tactics. For example, I can decide to cast Fireball, Cone of Cold or a grenade on an area on the ground where it only hits the enemies and not the companions, despite them being very close to one another. But I guess I'm basically repeating what has already been said.

Another thing is that I don't like when my companions activate sustained skills for a few seconds lasting fight. Then I have to turn it all off again because I'm not very fond of running around sparkling - especially during the cutscenes and dialogues. That gets very tedious after some time.

But I could grumble about my personal reasons all day, which would hardly be interesting I think. So, I'm going to finish by saying that I'm sure that with some creativity, there are a lot of great things you can do with tactics. But it's simply not my cup of tea. Maybe it'll change someday. Maybe it won't.

[monkeybiz]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

@monkeybiz
Exactly as you say, no two fights are the same and even genlocks come in different set-ups, numbers, can have different positions in the area etc. That's one of the reasons I like to decide what to do on the spot.

Agreed. It is vital that the right threat is eliminated ASAP. It sometimes means taking out the mage so you can minimse damage on taken on your party, or sometimes in boss fights, it means to back off and wipe out some lower level creeps for a while so you don't get overwhelmed. That human intellegence on what needs to be done in various situations is what makes the manual tactics fun.

Another thing is that I don't like when my companions activate sustained skills for a few seconds lasting fight. Then I have to turn it all off again because I'm not very fond of running around sparkling - especially during the cutscenes and dialogues. That gets very tedious after some time.

Its also total waste of stamina/mana. Hence another reason why I disable the sustained skills for tactics. It seems like we share the same approaches to the battles and can relate to the problems that arise. Some sustained skills are not even worth it. You're better off saving that stamina to be used for other skills that give you a direct advantage on the battlefield

But I could grumble about my personal reasons all day, which would hardly be interesting I think. So, I'm going to finish by saying that I'm sure that with some creativity, there are a lot of great things you can do with tactics. But it's simply not my cup of tea. Maybe it'll change someday. Maybe it won't.

Thats the thing, we all have our own reasons but at the end of the day we win the battle. If I want to use manual tactics and end up with a tonne of health polices/lyrium potions then thats good for me. I get a lot more satisfaction knowing that my party came out of the battle relatively unscathed in an efficient battle rather than everyone haivng injuries due to poor party management. However, those that just still want to use the tactics can do so although it is less efficient. Come to think of it, it is a lot of these players that complained about the difficulty in DA:O because unless you speced your character perfectly, the battles can become quite a challenge and wasting stamina/mana on useless skills and doing friendly fire damage certainly does not help.

Modifié par monkeybiz, 10 août 2012 - 03:49 .