215 réponses à ce sujet

[ExpiredLifetime]

I'm not calling for a nerf, nor saying there shouldn't be one. Simply supplying the math behind how I've figured its damage, seeing as I'm tired of the "nerf the Piranha" threads without any objective support behind their claims.

Piranha X on a GI, which seems to be the best weapon breaking class. Versus the Claymore X:
(Assuming that the class and skill bonuses are multiplicitive off of the weapon mod bonus)

Claymore:
    Initial damage per pellet: 206
    Damage from barrel (25%): 257.5
    Damage with barrel and class bonuses (40%): 360.5
    Damage with TC active: 566.5
    Damage per cloak cycle (2 shots with reload cancel, bonus applied to one shot and not the other, all 8 pellets hitting without headshot bonus): 7416
    With DR on Gold/Platinum (50 per pellet, making it 400 per shot): 6616

Piranha:
    Initial damage per pellet: 88.7
    With barrel: 110.875
    With barrel and class bonuses: 155.225
    With TC active: 243.925
    Damage per cloak cycle (I'm able to empty all 8, with roughly a 1 second damage bonus window for approx 3 of the shots having a bonus. Again all 8 pellets): 12,063.2
    With DR on Gold/Platinum (8 shots at 400 each): 8863.2


There's the math that *I* have figured for it. I'm not 100% sure this is how it is calculated, but this is how I have figured it.

Now it's up to you to figure if the higher risk factor of the Piranha warrants roughly a 30% increase in damage over the Claymore.

EDIT: Updated math with a 2.5 second TC bonus. Leaving PM out of the calculations.

Claymore post DR: 8264
Piranha post DR: 10992

Modifié par ExpiredLifetime, 04 août 2012 - 02:19 .

[Cyonan]

Actually, the Cloak bonus lasts for 1.5 seconds.

Tactical Cloak also has a min duration of 1 second.

The Piranha X also weighs 0.9, while the Claymore X weighs 2.0.

[ExpiredLifetime]

Cyonan wrote...

Actually, the Cloak bonus lasts for 1.5 seconds.

Tactical Cloak also has a min duration of 1 second.

The Piranha X also weighs 0.9, while the Claymore X weighs 2.0.

So you're saying the damage bonus applies for a total of 2.5 seconds? If that's the case, then the Claymore gets the bonus twice. And I left weight out of this, seeing as the cloak has a minimum cooldown of 3 seconds when used right before a shot.

Modifié par ExpiredLifetime, 04 août 2012 - 02:07 .

[Rokayt]

Well. Ok, without proxy mine, you could get anywhere from 4-5 shots in 1.5 seconds with a 3 shots per second rate of fire. (I do belive it is 2.5 seconds, actually.)

The GI gets closer to a 3.75 shots per second.

So the GI would get around 5-6 shots in the tactical cloak bonus. With 5 being the "With Proxy mine bonus," on the pirhana.

It may be all 8 shots with proxy mine, depending on how long cloak is.

2 with the claymore.

Sooooo...... Well. Have fun!

Modifié par Rokayt, 04 août 2012 - 02:09 .

[Mozts]

This is a very complicated case.

You shouldn't leave weight out of it, since a heavy weapon like a claymore is hardly useful on a caster. Piranha, on the other hand, useful on any character even without weight reduction passives.

Modifié par Mozts, 04 août 2012 - 02:10 .

[ExpiredLifetime]

Rokayt wrote...

Well. Ok, without proxy mine, you could get anywhere from 4-5 shots in 1.5 seconds with a 3 shots per second rate of fire.

The GI gets closer to a 3.75 shots per second.

So the GI would get around 5-6 shots in the tactical cloak bonus. With 5 being the "With Proxy mine bonus."

Won't be hard to refigure in that case. I haven't been assed to actually time it with Fraps and merely went off of what I felt was about accurate.

[GodlessPaladin]

The Piranha doesn't necessarily have a higher risk factor. If you miss with the Claymore while fighting, say, a Hunter you're screwed. Miss with the Piranha and you don't even care.... you can just keep firing.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 02:12 .

[ExpiredLifetime]

Mozts wrote...

This is a very complicated case.

You shouldn't leave weight out of it, since a heavy weapon like a claymore is hardly useful on a caster. Piranha, on the other hand, useful on any character even without weight reduction passives.

I stated this was strictly limited to the GI, because thats what I've seen the most complaints of it being overpowered on.

[ExpiredLifetime]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The Piranha doesn't have a higher risk factor. If you miss with the Claymore while fighting, say, a Hunter you're screwed. Miss with the Piranha and you don't even care.

The accuracy is roughly half on the Piranha, requiring you to be twice as close at max range for a full pellet spread to hit. I would call that higher risk.

[Rokayt]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Mozts wrote...

This is a very complicated case.

You shouldn't leave weight out of it, since a heavy weapon like a claymore is hardly useful on a caster. Piranha, on the other hand, useful on any character even without weight reduction passives.

I stated this was strictly limited to the GI, because thats what I've seen the most complaints of it being overpowered on.

It works about 75% as well on the geth enginieer.

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The
Piranha doesn't have a higher risk factor. If you miss with the
Claymore while fighting, say, a Hunter you're screwed. Miss with the
Piranha and you don't even care.

The accuracy is roughly
half on the Piranha, requiring you to be twice as close at max range for
a full pellet spread to hit. I would call that higher risk.

Not quite, accuracy bonuses stack in a funny way, a gun 50% accuracy bonus, combined with a 25% accuracy bonus will have a spread that was 1/4 of what it was before.

Thus, in the case of the GI with a smart choke, the guns original spread is 1/4 as significant as one would like to belive.

Modifié par Rokayt, 04 août 2012 - 02:17 .

[Cyonan]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

So you're saying the damage bonus applies for a total of 2.5 seconds? If that's the case, then the Claymore gets the bonus twice. And I left weight out of this, seeing as the cloak has a minimum cooldown of 3 seconds when used right before a shot.

A quick reload canceller can get 2 shots off. I posted the numbers on it a few days ago, but the Piranha still annihilated the Claymore.

It's not advisable to ignore weight, as guns aren't balanced around just the weight independant characters =P

The Geth is also a poor benchmark in my opinion, as he uses weapons too effectively, even compared to other weapons users.

[Mozts]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Mozts wrote...

This is a very complicated case.

You shouldn't leave weight out of it, since a heavy weapon like a claymore is hardly useful on a caster. Piranha, on the other hand, useful on any character even without weight reduction passives.

I stated this was strictly limited to the GI, because thats what I've seen the most complaints of it being overpowered on.

It still a factor nonetheless. This is a good initiave of yours, btw.

There also the Destroyer and Turian Soldier. GI is just the highest damage output of the game.

Modifié par Mozts, 04 août 2012 - 02:15 .

[GodlessPaladin]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The Piranha doesn't have a higher risk factor. If you miss with the Claymore while fighting, say, a Hunter you're screwed. Miss with the Piranha and you don't even care.

The accuracy is roughly half on the Piranha, requiring you to be twice as close at max range for a full pellet spread to hit. I would call that higher risk.

And yet you identify only that single factor.  If you miss with a Claymore at close range, you are stuck unarmed while a Platinum Hunter claws your face off.  That's a pretty significant element of risk.  You also need to be a master reload canceler... mess up a reload cancel and you get screwed in yet another way.

Moreover, I don't even try to hit with the full bullet spread at range.  Why would I?  I'm either using it to hose a group and still doing higher DPS than similar weapons with half the pellets missing, or I'm targeting an Atlas or something and I don't need to be close to hit those.

If you hit with half of the bullet spread, you're still doing quite high DPS, and the spread makes aim very forigiving.  There's nothing forgiving about the Claymore.

The Piranha also presents reduced risk because of reduced weight, which means less gap between powers, ability for longer cloaks with less cooldown, et cetera.

Edit:  Added a bit more.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 02:25 .

[Kick In The Door]

SIMPSONS DID IT SIMPSONS DID IT!

[ExpiredLifetime]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The Piranha doesn't have a higher risk factor. If you miss with the Claymore while fighting, say, a Hunter you're screwed. Miss with the Piranha and you don't even care.

The accuracy is roughly half on the Piranha, requiring you to be twice as close at max range for a full pellet spread to hit. I would call that higher risk.

I don't even try to hit with the full bullet spread.  Why would I?  I'm either using it to hose a group and still doing higher DPS than similar weapons with half the pellets missing, or I'm targeting an Atlas or something and I don't need to be close to hit those.

If you hit with half of the bullet spread, you're still doing quite high DPS, and the spread makes aim very forigiving.

I'm figuring this around Platinum use, where you're just downing bosses more than anything else. So your full pellet spread hits. Either gun makes very short work of the normal mooks, so I was leaving that out of the picture.

[Lord Rosario]

With these numbers, taking into account the Piranha's lower accuracy, having to get, and stay closer to the enemy and the Claymore's heavier weight.. it seems to me that they are about equal and really could be argued for either side.

A ~SMALL~ nerf might be called for, but I honestly would rather not chance the gun to be completely destroyed by a far heavier nerf than required.

Thanks or the numbers :]

[ExpiredLifetime]

Lord Rosario wrote...

With these numbers, taking into account the Piranha's lower accuracy, having to get, and stay closer to the enemy and the Claymore's heavier weight.. it seems to me that they are about equal and really could be argued for either side.

A ~SMALL~ nerf might be called for, but I honestly would rather not chance the gun to be completely destroyed by a far heavier nerf than required.

Thanks or the numbers :]

No problem. I personally feel the gun is still far, far too accurate for what they intended. My change to it? Double the spread when fired from the hip. That would bring a challenge into controlling the recoil from it.

[ExpiredLifetime]

Mozts wrote...

It still a factor nonetheless. This is a good initiave of yours, btw.

There also the Destroyer and Turian Soldier. GI is just the highest damage output of the game.

I used the GI because it was much, much easier for me to figure damage per cloak cycle than it was to spend the time with Fraps to document how long it takes to fire X number of shots in 30 seconds from each gun on the different classes. But because of how things tend to work, you'll still see only a roughly 30% increase on everything else. The numbers will be different in the end, but the difference between the two guns will stay roughly the same.

[Lord Rosario]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The Piranha doesn't have a higher risk factor. If you miss with the Claymore while fighting, say, a Hunter you're screwed. Miss with the Piranha and you don't even care.

The accuracy is roughly half on the Piranha, requiring you to be twice as close at max range for a full pellet spread to hit. I would call that higher risk.

And yet you identify only that single factor.  If you miss with a Claymore at close range, you are stuck unarmed while a Platinum Hunter claws your face off.  That's a pretty significant element of risk.  You also need to be a master reload canceler... mess up a reload cancel and you get screwed in yet another way.

Moreover, I don't even try to hit with the full bullet spread at range.  Why would I?  I'm either using it to hose a group and still doing higher DPS than similar weapons with half the pellets missing, or I'm targeting an Atlas or something and I don't need to be close to hit those.

If you hit with half of the bullet spread, you're still doing quite high DPS, and the spread makes aim very forigiving.  There's nothing forgiving about the Claymore.

The Piranha also presents reduced risk because of reduced weight, which means less gap between powers, ability for longer cloaks with less cooldown, et cetera.

Shouldn't need to get that close to the Geth Hunter with a Claymore, you can hit it from a good 10-20 meters away, especially if you're in cover. If yo udo happen to be that close, and you miss, then you are a geth infiltrator... throw down a quick heavy melee and get back.

With the Piranha, you have to stand there, and shoot, lossing cover, ability to dodge, run, or anything else while you fire at almost point blank range. So yes, both have a risk factor, but the Piranha has a guaranteed risk factor that the Claymore does not.

[Lord Rosario]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

With these numbers, taking into account the Piranha's lower accuracy, having to get, and stay closer to the enemy and the Claymore's heavier weight.. it seems to me that they are about equal and really could be argued for either side.

A ~SMALL~ nerf might be called for, but I honestly would rather not chance the gun to be completely destroyed by a far heavier nerf than required.

Thanks or the numbers :]

No problem. I personally feel the gun is still far, far too accurate for what they intended. My change to it? Double the spread when fired from the hip. That would bring a challenge into controlling the recoil from it.

I would just suggest that you can't increase it's accuracy with mods or the like, similar to the Reegar Carbine. This way, Turians, Destroyers, and Geth could not make the gun more than what was intended, but leave it as is for all the other classes.

[Achire]

So you're saying that if someone is dumb enough not to use AP ammo or at least a freaking shredder mod on Platinum, Piranha only does 33% more damage in a cloak cycle than a Claymore? You really cracked this case wide open.

[GodlessPaladin]

My experience is that I spend less mental effort mitigating risk when using the Claymore.... and that's because I'm at less risk.

It doesn't matter if I miss.
It doesn't matter if I don't reload cancel perfectly.
It doesn't matter if my aim is sloppy.
It doesn't matter if I take a long time in cloak or want to use powers more as any given character. Powers offer a lot in terms of safety nets.
And one of the most important factors mitigating risk? Enemies die far more quickly, and thus can shoot at me less and bosses don't have time to do things like roadblock me.

The Claymore has a few factors too.  I can be exposed for less firing time against some enemies, and I can kill from a somewhat larger range.  But the OP has ignored the idea that there are any mitigating risk factors for the Piranha at all, counting only effective range as a risk factor.


Moreover, as others have pointed out the OP's numbers do not present a full picture of the Infiltrator damage
comparison.

This presents a skewed picture that doesn't represent its actual use... and it still comes out in favor of the Piranha, as Achire points out.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 02:34 .

[AshirahTSparkle]

So does it mean that because it's OP on the GI, we have to nerf the gun?

[UKStory135]

Dialing it back to make it have a similar DPS to the Claymore, Hurricane, or GPS would still leave it as a good gun. What I don't want to see is a weight increase. That would take its utility away as something casters can use to increase their boss damage. The lack of accuracy already makes up for its lack of weight.

[ExpiredLifetime]

Achire wrote...

So you're saying that if someone is dumb enough not to use AP ammo or at least a freaking shredder mod on Platinum, Piranha only does 33% more damage in a cloak cycle than a Claymore? You really cracked this case wide open.

If I knew what the percentage of the pierce was for AP III ammo, I would have figured it in. It does benefit the Piranha far more than it does the Claymore though, seeing as the Piranha loses 3200 damage to armor without piercing ammo versus the Claymore's 800.