215 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
I personally think a damage nerf would be more appropriate.

I'm going to keep bringing up the accuracy issue. Consider this: if the spread of the gun was doubled, then your effective range would be halved. You could no longer take 30m shots with it on a class with no accuracy bonus and effectively kill something, it would be reserved as a highly inaccurate, highly powerful CQC weapon. Very high risk, very high reward.

And when I get a 100% accuracy bonus?

Last I checked, there was no accuracy bonus that high on anything but a TS with MM running.

That's correct. 

[AshirahTSparkle]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
I personally think a damage nerf would be more appropriate.

I'm going to keep bringing up the accuracy issue. Consider this: if the spread of the gun was doubled, then your effective range would be halved. You could no longer take 30m shots with it on a class with no accuracy bonus and effectively kill something, it would be reserved as a highly inaccurate, highly powerful CQC weapon. Very high risk, very high reward.

And when I get a 100% accuracy bonus?

Really though, this suggestion is the one that would hurt guys other than the GI.  The GI doesn't mind walking right up to someone and blasting them in the face with a 75% accuracy bonus, but the casters people are saying they want to protect the interests of would definitely care.

And how do you get 100% accuracy bonus except for specific classes?

[Achire]

Edit: Nevermind, I was dumb enough to get trolled.

Modifié par Achire, 04 août 2012 - 03:07 .

[CC-Tron]

EvanKester wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...
Not my intention to - at least, not on what concerns its damage output. Maybe its weight, tho =P

No, I'm talking about the other light shotguns, and them only. My appologies.

Ah! that was unclear, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, the other light shotguns need a serious buff, especially the Scimitar and Eviscerator.

And I have yet to unlock the Wraith...
For what it's worth, my piranha is only at lv1, so maybe it is OP at lv10, but I just am not seeing it right now...

Appologies for any confusion.

Yeah, it's at rank X that the Piranha starts being overpowered. At rank I it's slightly behind the Claymore.

edit - I very much doubt Achire and GP want to cripple power-classes, I've been in several discussions with both and never got that impression.

Pretty much! I think everyone likes that there's a new light weight shotgun worh using, the scary thing is that right now it's completely better than the previous best shotgun in the game. A slight damage nerf to bring it to a level more comparable with the Claymore would be fine.

And why does the weapon have to be in line with the claymore?

[corkey sweet]

the more bioware nerfs the guns and characters to calm the cry babies. the more players walk away from the game and find something else to play. my advice to bioware is to stop all the nerfing

[Xaijin]

Achire wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...

Achire wrote...

Look, I agree that power classes aren't as good as weapon classes. The solution to this is to buff combo damage and to buff powers; the solution is not to give everyone a weapon that has an insanely high DPS.

Says you. What difference does it make? Buff powers or weapons and the end result is the power based classes would be killing more enemies. C'mon man.

The difference is that you get weapons like the Piranha X where even power classes such as the Smashguard are just plain better off only shooting at enemies instead of actually using their powers. If the lightweight weapons are so good that powers can't compete in damage and you're worse off even using them, why play a power class instead of a weapon class that gets major damage buff with those same overpowered weapons? However if power damage and combo damage were buffed to a higher level, a power class could compete by actually using the features that make them unique: the powers.

That would be a fire rate issue, not a damage per shot issue.

[ExpiredLifetime]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That's correct. 

In that case, that's one class that would be getting the ability to snipe with it. It comes down again to making the gun balanced, or nerfing it because one class can get better results with it than the others.

[CC-Tron]

Achire wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...

Achire wrote...

Look, I agree that power classes aren't as good as weapon classes. The solution to this is to buff combo damage and to buff powers; the solution is not to give everyone a weapon that has an insanely high DPS.

Says you. What difference does it make? Buff powers or weapons and the end result is the power based classes would be killing more enemies. C'mon man.

The difference is that you get weapons like the Piranha X where even power classes such as the Smashguard are just plain better off only shooting at enemies instead of actually using their powers. If the lightweight weapons are so good that powers can't compete in damage and you're worse off even using them, why play a power class instead of a weapon class that gets major damage buff with those same overpowered weapons? However if power damage and combo damage were buffed to a higher level, a power class could compete by actually using the features that make them unique: the powers.

It seems you want to control how players choose to play their classes. If you don't like the pirahna, don't use it. Are you competing with those who choose to use it?

[nicethugbert]

Oh, yes, the GI, the only class in the entire game.

P.S. Accuracy matters.

[GodlessPaladin]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That's correct. 

In that case, that's one class that would be getting the ability to snipe with it. It comes down again to making the gun balanced, or nerfing it because one class can get better results with it than the others.

You're the one talking about doubling the spread of the gun.  The main guys getting hurt by that aren't the guys getting the most out of the weapon.  Why do you imagine this would "make the gun balanced"?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 03:08 .

[ExpiredLifetime]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That's correct. 

In that case, that's one class that would be getting the ability to snipe with it. It comes down again to making the gun balanced, or nerfing it because one class can get better results with it than the others.

You're the one arguing to nerf the accuracy to hurt the casters, not me.

It actually wouldn't hurt the casters, per say. It would place the weapon in its own little niche. Something is too far away? Use your powers until it gets close. When its close, pull out your Piranha and blow it away.

[Lord Rosario]

I see no one paid any attention to the idea of making it similar to the Reegar and make it so you ~Can't~ get accuracy bonuses from anywhere else?

[ExpiredLifetime]

Lord Rosario wrote...


I see no one paid any attention to the idea of making it similar to the Reegar and make it so you ~Can't~ get accuracy bonuses from anywhere else?

The thing to consider with this, however, is that would free up another mod slot. Allowing the weapon's DPS to go even higher.

[GodlessPaladin]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That's correct. 

In that case, that's one class that would be getting the ability to snipe with it. It comes down again to making the gun balanced, or nerfing it because one class can get better results with it than the others.

You're the one arguing to nerf the accuracy to hurt the casters, not me.

It actually wouldn't hurt the casters, per say. It would place the weapon in its own little niche. Something is too far away? Use your powers until it gets close. When its close, pull out your Piranha and blow it away.

There is already a weapon with an actually capped range that doesn't benefit from accuracy bonuses... the Reegar Carbine.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 03:10 .

[Juice Tin]

Who gives a sh*t, the gun is awesome, doesn't need to be changed, case closed full stop. WTF does it really MATTER ANYWAY?!? It's not PvP, there is no real reason for what BW calls "balancing", would all you people PLEASE stop discussing, calling for and wanting nerfs to the guns and characters in this game?!? Seriously... it's getting REALLY old.

[CC-Tron]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That's correct. 

In that case, that's one class that would be getting the ability to snipe with it. It comes down again to making the gun balanced, or nerfing it because one class can get better results with it than the others.

You're the one arguing to nerf the accuracy to hurt the casters, not me.

It actually wouldn't hurt the casters, per say. It would place the weapon in its own little niche. Something is too far away? Use your powers until it gets close. When its close, pull out your Piranha and blow it away.

There is already a weapon with an actually capped range that doesn't benefit from accuracy bonuses... the Reegar Carbine.

The reegar is much heavier than the pirahna.

[ExpiredLifetime]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That's correct. 

In that case, that's one class that would be getting the ability to snipe with it. It comes down again to making the gun balanced, or nerfing it because one class can get better results with it than the others.

You're the one arguing to nerf the accuracy to hurt the casters, not me.

It actually wouldn't hurt the casters, per say. It would place the weapon in its own little niche. Something is too far away? Use your powers until it gets close. When its close, pull out your Piranha and blow it away.

There is already a weapon with an actually capped range that doesn't benefit from accuracy bonuses... the Reegar Carbine.

With a highly inaccurate Piranha, you would be forced to choose between the Reegar that has a 3x bonus versus shields, or the Piranha, which is arguably twice as efficient versus armor.

[Rokayt]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
I personally think a damage nerf would be more appropriate.

I'm going to keep bringing up the accuracy issue. Consider this: if the spread of the gun was doubled, then your effective range would be halved. You could no longer take 30m shots with it on a class with no accuracy bonus and effectively kill something, it would be reserved as a highly inaccurate, highly powerful CQC weapon. Very high risk, very high reward.

And when I get a 100% accuracy bonus?

Last I checked, there was no accuracy bonus that high on anything but a TS with MM running.

That's correct. 

Base accuracy is insignificant when you have +75% accuracy anyhow. Your gun will have at least a spread that is a quarter of the games "no" accuracy score.

The differences between the different shotguns accuracies on the geth/destroyer is laughable. (Well, the Desciple-> Pirhana differnence is noticable, but almost none of the other comparisons are. Hell, Wraith and the Pirhana have similar spread aimed with the 75% bonus, the Wraith has a lower zoomed spread bonus.)

[GodlessPaladin]

Lord Rosario wrote...


I see no one paid any attention to the idea of making it similar to the Reegar and make it so you ~Can't~ get accuracy bonuses from anywhere else?

Accuracy isn't the problem with the Piranha.  With no accuracy bonuses at all it has a longer effective range than the Reegar Carbine.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 03:13 .

[Grunt_Platform]

CC-Tron wrote...
And why does the weapon have to be in line with the claymore?

Several reasons, but the short answer is Power Creep. If the piranha outperforms the Claymore in all ways on all classes, that's the worst, most gamekilling kind of power creep.

The longer answer touches on a few points: The Claymore has been one of the best guns in the game for a long time, and it establishes a baseline that other guns can be measured against. It takes a lot of skill to use, and it has a number of drawbacks (magazine size, weight accuracy). It's also been strong, and in the game from the start, so most powers are already relatively balanced around it.

In contrast, the Piranha does much more damage and has only one drawback that is easily mitigated. it has a large magazine, fires quickly, and weighs very little. And due to its spread and rate of fire, it actually doesn't require that much skill to mow down enemies by the dozen. It is enough stronger than the Claymore and other weapons that rebalancing the game around its power level would mean buffing everything to compete, which just isn't practical.

That all said, I don't think the Piranha's too far out of balance. Letting it be stronger than the Claymore on classes like the Destroyer and Turian Soldier is fine by me, since accuracy bonuses need to be useful for something. I don't think increasing its spread is the way to go though, since that would just make the gun more exclusive to the weapon users, and just makes life even worse for caster classes than it already is. But bringing it in line wouldn't take too much of a change, this thing is no Krysae.

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 août 2012 - 03:15 .

[Lord Rosario]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...


I see no one paid any attention to the idea of making it similar to the Reegar and make it so you ~Can't~ get accuracy bonuses from anywhere else?

The thing to consider with this, however, is that would free up another mod slot. Allowing the weapon's DPS to go even higher.

No it wouldn't... That wouldn't change anything besides almst forcing you to pick something else instead of giving you the choice you currently have. Saying it would free up another slot is just silly. It would limit mod bonuses and ability bonuses as well, meaning it can't get more accuracy than intended.

[GodlessPaladin]

CC-Tron wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

That's correct. 

In that case, that's one class that would be getting the ability to snipe with it. It comes down again to making the gun balanced, or nerfing it because one class can get better results with it than the others.

You're the one arguing to nerf the accuracy to hurt the casters, not me.

It actually wouldn't hurt the casters, per say. It would place the weapon in its own little niche. Something is too far away? Use your powers until it gets close. When its close, pull out your Piranha and blow it away.

There is already a weapon with an actually capped range that doesn't benefit from accuracy bonuses... the Reegar Carbine.

The reegar is much heavier than the pirahna.

You're right!  It's got an extra 35% recharge speed capped on.  It's also got less ammo, less range, and less damage.  And nobody was even close to calling it underpowered in any way, and people were using it on casters.

What does that tell you?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 03:17 .

[DarthVarner]

The Claymore is immediately and hilariously superior if you actually play the game on Platinum. By "play the game" I mean unknown / unknown. Have fun with that Piranha on Condor, Dagger, Rio, Hydra, Jade, or London. Oh, you're dead again? Huh.

I was on the Piranha train for a while, and it's fun on stuff like Glacier. But hit me up on Origin and I'll eviscerate you with the Claymore on any of these other maps.

Furthermore, the Piranha has big problems with Phantoms. They're spindly enough that its cone-like spread often ends up mostly not hitting, and as soon as the first shot connects they're flipping circles around you. Usually I can empty a full Piranha clip, hitting mostly nothing, and end up embarrassed and probably dead. My buddies prefer playing vs. Reapers if we are Piranha wielders, because we prefer constant Banshees to constant Phantoms with that gun.

The Claymore OSOK's Phantoms on any difficulty. No flipping. No mindbullets of death. Full extraction from Cerb / Condor / Platinum.

It's not as clear cut as many seem to think.

[nicethugbert]

Achire wrote...
The difference is that you get weapons like the Piranha X where even power classes such as the Smashguard are just plain better off only shooting at enemies instead of actually using their powers.

That is absolute non-sense.  GI, TC+Proxy Mine.  SI, TC+ED.  Any class with grenades would be stupid to not use them, and not just for spawn bombing.  Human Soldier, ARush, Conc Shot, grenades.  Turian Soldier, MM, Conc Shot, Proxy Mine.  Turian Sentinel, Overload, Warp.   GE, Overload, Turret.  ..........   The Piranha has no stagger.  Enemies are suicidal.  Phantoms just cut you to pieces unless you stagger them.  The list goes on.

[ExpiredLifetime]

Lord Rosario wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...


I see no one paid any attention to the idea of making it similar to the Reegar and make it so you ~Can't~ get accuracy bonuses from anywhere else?

The thing to consider with this, however, is that would free up another mod slot. Allowing the weapon's DPS to go even higher.

No it wouldn't... That wouldn't change anything besides almst forcing you to pick something else instead of giving you the choice you currently have. Saying it would free up another slot is just silly. It would limit mod bonuses and ability bonuses as well, meaning it can't get more accuracy than intended.

Currently you nearly *have* to run with a smart choke to be able to hit anything with the gun. By making it so you're unable to use one, that slot currently occupied by the choke is then freed up for something else. Like a shredder being used in conjunction with the EB.