215 réponses à ce sujet

[CC-Tron]

EvanKester wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...
And why does the weapon have to be in line with the claymore?

Several reasons, but the short answer is Power Creep. If the piranha outperforms the Claymore in all ways on all classes, that's the worst, most gamekilling kind of power creep.

The longer answer touches on a few points: The Claymore has been one of the best guns in the game for a long time, and it establishes a baseline that other guns can be measured against. It takes a lot of skill to use, and it has a number of drawbacks (magazine size, weight accuracy). It's also been strong, and in the game from the start, so most powers are already relatively balanced around it.

In contrast, the Piranha does much more damage and has only one drawback that is easily mitigated. it has a large magazine, fires quickly, and weighs very little. And due to its spread and rate of fire, it actually doesn't require that much skill to mow down enemies by the dozen. It is enough stronger than the Claymore and other weapons that rebalancing the game around its power level would mean buffing everything to compete, which just isn't practical.

That all said, I don't think the Piranha's too far out of balance. Letting it be stronger than the Claymore on classes like the Destroyer and Turian Soldier is fine by me, since accuracy bonuses need to be useful for something. I don't think increasing its spread is the way to go though, since that would just make the gun more exclusive to the weapon users, and just makes life even worse for caster classes than it already is. But bringing it in line wouldn't take too much of a change, this thing is no Krysae.

Nope.  The nerfs are killing the game and not this supposed power creep.

[Pedro Costa]

EvanKester wrote...
How to reduce its damage is a concern, mind. I mean, what needs to be hit? Magazine size? Rate of fire? The base damage?

I'm only at lv1 of the weapon, as I've said, but what if they rolled back the base damage to the one pre-buff
? 
60, wasn't it?

Increasing the weight suggestion or decreasing its accuracy, I'd be very thankful if that was forgotten altogether, as I said, power-classes already have a small enough weapon selection, no need to make it smaller.

[GodlessPaladin]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
How to reduce its damage is a concern, mind. I mean, what needs to be hit? Magazine size? Rate of fire? The base damage?

I'm only at lv1 of the weapon, as I've said, but what if they rolled back the base damage to the one pre-buff
? 
60, wasn't it?

  79.6

[ExpiredLifetime]

DarthVarner wrote...

The Claymore is immediately and hilariously superior if you actually play the game on Platinum. By "play the game" I mean unknown / unknown. Have fun with that Piranha on Condor, Dagger, Rio, Hydra, Jade, or London. Oh, you're dead again? Huh.

I was on the Piranha train for a while, and it's fun on stuff like Glacier. But hit me up on Origin and I'll eviscerate you with the Claymore on any of these other maps.

Furthermore, the Piranha has big problems with Phantoms. They're spindly enough that its cone-like spread often ends up mostly not hitting, and as soon as the first shot connects they're flipping circles around you. Usually I can empty a full Piranha clip, hitting mostly nothing, and end up embarrassed and probably dead. My buddies prefer playing vs. Reapers if we are Piranha wielders, because we prefer constant Banshees to constant Phantoms with that gun.

The Claymore OSOK's Phantoms on any difficulty. No flipping. No mindbullets of death. Full extraction from Cerb / Condor / Platinum.

It's not as clear cut as many seem to think.

On anything but my Destroyer, I honestly prefer the Claymore for this reason right here. I feel its lower risk in the fact that it allows me to do maximum damage with minimal exposure.

[GodlessPaladin]

CC-Tron wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...
And why does the weapon have to be in line with the claymore?

Several reasons, but the short answer is Power Creep. If the piranha outperforms the Claymore in all ways on all classes, that's the worst, most gamekilling kind of power creep.

The
longer answer touches on a few points: The Claymore has been one of the
best guns in the game for a long time, and it establishes a baseline
that other guns can be measured against. It takes a lot of skill to use,
and it has a number of drawbacks (magazine size, weight accuracy). It's
also been strong, and in the game from the start, so most powers are
already relatively balanced around it.

In contrast, the Piranha
does much more damage and has only one drawback that is easily
mitigated. it has a large magazine, fires quickly, and weighs very
little. And due to its spread and rate of fire, it actually doesn't
require that much skill to mow down enemies by the dozen. It is enough
stronger than the Claymore and other weapons that rebalancing the game
around its power level would mean buffing everything to compete, which just isn't practical.

That
all said, I don't think the Piranha's too far out of balance. Letting
it be stronger than the Claymore on classes like the Destroyer and
Turian Soldier is fine by me, since accuracy bonuses need to be
useful for something. I don't think increasing its spread is the way to
go though, since that would just make the gun more exclusive to the
weapon users, and just makes life even worse for caster classes than it
already is. But bringing it in line wouldn't take too much of a change,
this thing is no Krysae.

Nope.  The nerfs are killing the game and not this supposed power creep.

Wow, that's some argument there.  Iconic, really.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 03:25 .

[Pedro Costa]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
 79.6

Went to check, turns out I had memorised its previous damage at level 1.
But 79.6, is it too high still, or is it acceptable?

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 04 août 2012 - 03:23 .

[CC-Tron]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...
And why does the weapon have to be in line with the claymore?

Several reasons, but the short answer is Power Creep. If the piranha outperforms the Claymore in all ways on all classes, that's the worst, most gamekilling kind of power creep.

The
longer answer touches on a few points: The Claymore has been one of the
best guns in the game for a long time, and it establishes a baseline
that other guns can be measured against. It takes a lot of skill to use,
and it has a number of drawbacks (magazine size, weight accuracy). It's
also been strong, and in the game from the start, so most powers are
already relatively balanced around it.

In contrast, the Piranha
does much more damage and has only one drawback that is easily
mitigated. it has a large magazine, fires quickly, and weighs very
little. And due to its spread and rate of fire, it actually doesn't
require that much skill to mow down enemies by the dozen. It is enough
stronger than the Claymore and other weapons that rebalancing the game
around its power level would mean buffing everything to compete, which just isn't practical.

That
all said, I don't think the Piranha's too far out of balance. Letting
it be stronger than the Claymore on classes like the Destroyer and
Turian Soldier is fine by me, since accuracy bonuses need to be
useful for something. I don't think increasing its spread is the way to
go though, since that would just make the gun more exclusive to the
weapon users, and just makes life even worse for caster classes than it
already is. But bringing it in line wouldn't take too much of a change,
this thing is no Krysae.

Nope.  The nerfs are killing the game and not this supposed power creep.

Wow, that's some argument there.  Iconic, really.

Thanks. Don't mention it.

[Grunt_Platform]

CC-Tron wrote...

Nope.  The nerfs are killing the game and not this supposed power creep.

Mind actually explaining how?

Power Creep can actually hit a game pretty hard—The game already has a problem with a small hand full of options completely outclassing the bulk of other choices. Inroducing weapons that outclass even those top weapons invalidates an even larger percentage of the game's content, which makes the gameplay even more repetitive. [EDIT: For example, right now grenadiers and weapon users are just better at everything than other power users. The Geth Infiltrator and the N7 Destroyer make pretty much every threat in the game a joke. A gun like the Piranha exacerbates that.]

While we'd all prefer buffing the weaker options to compete, one something is far enough ahead of even the previous best options, buffing everything else in the game to compete just isn't tenable. It also invites more enemy buffs just to keep completion times on the same level.

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 août 2012 - 03:32 .

[Lord Rosario]

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...


I see no one paid any attention to the idea of making it similar to the Reegar and make it so you ~Can't~ get accuracy bonuses from anywhere else?

The thing to consider with this, however, is that would free up another mod slot. Allowing the weapon's DPS to go even higher.

No it wouldn't... That wouldn't change anything besides almst forcing you to pick something else instead of giving you the choice you currently have. Saying it would free up another slot is just silly. It would limit mod bonuses and ability bonuses as well, meaning it can't get more accuracy than intended.

Currently you nearly *have* to run with a smart choke to be able to hit anything with the gun. By making it so you're unable to use one, that slot currently occupied by the choke is then freed up for something else. Like a shredder being used in conjunction with the EB.

So in other words... since it would force you to use something besides the thing you almost have to use to be able to do anything with it, it would actually weaken the gun, as per the intended idea of making it so you couldn't get accuracy boosts for it.

Yeah, that's a terrible idea then, sorry for even bringing it up.

[Omnifarious Nef]

I'll just leave this here.

[Digitalis32]

what would be funnier would be eviscerating piranha players with an eviscerator...

[GodlessPaladin]

NeferiusX3 wrote...

I'll just leave this here.

First off, aiming as poorly as possible with the Piranha.  Notice what happens if you do what you're supposed to and aim a bit down and to the side (and of course note how you can hit multiple enemies that way).  Second off, compare the damage dealt in either case.  6 Harrier X rounds is about 770 base damage.  Hitting with half of the Piranha pellets is about 700 base damage.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 03:38 .

[Grunt_Platform]

NeferiusX3 wrote...

I'll just leave this here.

Heh, yeah. This is why I'm a little resistant to nerfs to it—that spread is pretty accurate too. Unlike the Talon, the Piranha seems hard coded to place as many shots around the edge of the cone as possible.

But that can be compensated for surprisingly easily so.. rolling back the buff it received seems like a good idea, at a minimum.

[Lord Rosario]

EvanKester wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...

Nope.  The nerfs are killing the game and not this supposed power creep.

Mind actually explaining how?

Power Creep can actually hit a game pretty hard—The game already has a problem with a small hand full of options completely outclassing the bulk of other choices. Inroducing weapons that outclass even those top weapons invalidates an even larger percentage of the game's content, which makes the gameplay even more repetitive.

While we'd all prefer buffing the weaker options to compete, one something is far enough ahead of even the previous best options, buffing everything else in the game to compete just isn't tenable. It also invites more enemy buffs just to keep completion times on the same level.

Both nerfs and power creep drive players away, that's a given. Thing is though, power creep makes the game get boring after too long of doing the same thing. Heavy nerfs on the other hand drive people away because something they liked was "made useless" [whether it really did or not doesn't matter, it will still drive people away.] Because of this, nerfs will make people leave, pissed off at the game and the people who made it. Power creep will have people leave because they got bored of something.

In this case I'd wager that people aren't going to be leaving for a while due to the Piranha being too good, especially since it was a recent addition and also that there may be more DLC to come.

Both power creep and nerfs can be both good and bad. Trick is to balance them.

[GodlessPaladin]

EvanKester wrote...

NeferiusX3 wrote...

I'll just leave this here.

Heh, yeah. This is why I'm a little resistant to nerfs to it—that spread is pretty accurate too. Unlike the Talon, the Piranha seems hard coded to place as many shots around the edge of the cone as possible.

Why are people aiming the piranha wrong?  The fact that the shooter in the picture is aiming the reticule at
the upper chest is demonstrating the wrong way to use the Piranha.  It would be like going for headshots with the Scorpion, when you should be aiming around people's feet.

That spread pattern means you can line up half the bullets on the sides, and that you can hose multiple enemies with less damage loss aiming in the space between them (since the center of your aim is empty).

Try that same picture, but move the piranha aim down and to the side, and for good measure put a second assault trooper next to the other one separated by a reasonable distance.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 03:51 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Lord Rosario wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

CC-Tron wrote...

Nope.  The nerfs are killing the game and not this supposed power creep.

Mind actually explaining how?

Power Creep can actually hit a game pretty hard—The game already has a problem with a small hand full of options completely outclassing the bulk of other choices. Inroducing weapons that outclass even those top weapons invalidates an even larger percentage of the game's content, which makes the gameplay even more repetitive.

While we'd all prefer buffing the weaker options to compete, one something is far enough ahead of even the previous best options, buffing everything else in the game to compete just isn't tenable. It also invites more enemy buffs just to keep completion times on the same level.

Both nerfs and power creep drive players away, that's a given. Thing is though, power creep makes the game get boring after too long of doing the same thing. Heavy nerfs on the other hand drive people away because something they liked was "made useless" [whether it really did or not doesn't matter, it will still drive people away.] Because of this, nerfs will make people leave, pissed off at the game and the people who made it. Power creep will have people leave because they got bored of something.

In this case I'd wager that people aren't going to be leaving for a while due to the Piranha being too good, especially since it was a recent addition and also that there may be more DLC to come.

Both power creep and nerfs can be both good and bad. Trick is to balance them.

Sounds fair, though how many players did we actually lose to the three big nerfs? As I understand it, the Tactical Cloak nerf was the only one that even stood out to players who don't read the forums. I've seen more people stop playing over the store system and the sheer repetition of the game than anything else.

Power creep btw, refers only to when new options invalidate older options.
PA-TV's Extra Credits talks about power creep

Mass Effect 3 is a game with lots and lots of incomparables (though you actually can compare incomparables  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie], especially when the number of objectives is limited here...), and letting the Piranha be strong, even if it has to be dialed back to "only" as strong as the Claymore seems fair to me. This won't break the game, and it won't make the Piranha useless, since it will always synergize better with Devestator Mode, or the Kroguard than the Claymore does..

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 août 2012 - 03:48 .

[Grunt_Platform]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
Heh, yeah. This is why I'm a little resistant to nerfs to it—that spread is pretty accurate too. Unlike the Talon, the Piranha seems hard coded to place as many shots around the edge of the cone as possible.

That spread pattern means you can line up half the bullets on the sides, and that you can hose multiple enemies with less damage loss aiming in the space between them (since the center of your aim is empty).

Why are people aiming the piranha wrong?

Err yes, as I said: it's easily mitigated, partly because the reliability of that spread makes what you're describing so easy. It slightly raises the skill factor of using the Piranha right, since that is so counter intuitive.. but not enough to make it comparable to the needs of the Claymore.

The other part being how well the gun synergizes with accuracy & ROF boosters.

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 août 2012 - 03:51 .

[rmccowen]

I'm going to throw some more fuel on the fire with revised damage numbers.

Here, I'm assuming the following:

 * A generic Infiltrator (not a buffed GI) with a 17.5% passive bonus to weapon damage from class, and evo 2 (evo 6 for the Valiant)
 * An appropriate level V amp, for another 15% bonus
 * A Claymore X with Shredder Mod and High-Caliber Barrel (-65% armor DR, +25% damage)
 * A Piranha X with Smart Choke and High-Caliber Barrel (+accuracy, +25% damage)

The total damage multiplier is 2.375 = 1 + 0.175 + 0.15 + 0.25 + 0.8.

In a 2.5s cloak cycle, the Piranha gets 6 rounds, and the Claymore gets 2 using reload-cancel and 1 otherwise. That gets us:
 * Claymore: 7828.0 = 206 * 2.375 * 8 * 2
 * Piranha: 10,111.8 = 88.7 * 2.375 * 8 * 6

Versus armor, the Claymore loses 17.5 damage per pellet, and the Piranha loses 50. That results in the following:
 * Claymore: 7548.0 damage
 * Piranha: 7711.8 damage

That's an interesting result, to me, because (as GodlessPaladin points out upthread) the Claymore is substantially less forgiving than the Paladin. The Piranha pulls shields and health down 30% faster, and deals equivalent damage against armor even without the Shredder mod (and using AP ammo or another armor debuff gives the Piranha a higher proportion of its non-armored damage, which isn't good for the comparison). The Claymore also requires reload canceling to even come close to competing with the Piranha--which doesn't have the same requirement.

Finally, I hope it's clear that (mathematically) additional bonuses of any kind will only widen the gap. Using a Proximity Mine, adding in Hunter Mode, using a consumable amp, etc. mean the Piranha just blows its harder-to-use and less-forgiving counterpart out of the water.

***

My vote for balancing is to take about 10% out of its (current, post-buff) damage, cut the rate of fire to 120 rounds per minute, and bump up the recoil a notch.

[Lord Rosario]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

NeferiusX3 wrote...

I'll just leave this here.

Heh, yeah. This is why I'm a little resistant to nerfs to it—that spread is pretty accurate too. Unlike the Talon, the Piranha seems hard coded to place as many shots around the edge of the cone as possible.

That spread pattern means you can line up half the bullets on the sides, and that you can hose multiple enemies with less damage loss aiming in the space between them (since the center of your aim is empty).

Why are people aiming the piranha wrong?

Try that same picture, but move the piranha aim down and to the side, and put a second assault trooper next to the other one separated by a reasonable distance.

The fact that the shooter in the picture is aiming the reticule at the upper chest is demonstrating the wrong way to use the Piranha.  It would be like going for headshots with the Scorpion, when you should be aiming at people's feet.

Not long ago, you were saying it it was easier to aim the Piranha vs aiming the Claymore. Seems this story has changed. Claymore, you point at the enemy and pull the trigger, like most guns. Piranha, you have to aim down, slightly to the side, and maybe hope there is another trooper next to him to get the full effect of your shot. You also need to be aware of the spread of the gun deppending on what mods, consumables, or character you are using.

Starting to sound like the Piranha takes quite a bit more skill to use than previously determined. Going off the numbers that were posted in the op, you have to have 7 of the 10 pellets hit for 8* shots in a row to do the same dps as the Claymore.

*Edited from the # 3.

Modifié par Lord Rosario, 04 août 2012 - 03:52 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Lord Rosario wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

NeferiusX3 wrote...

I'll just leave this here.

Heh, yeah. This is why I'm a little resistant to nerfs to it—that spread is pretty accurate too. Unlike the Talon, the Piranha seems hard coded to place as many shots around the edge of the cone as possible.

That spread pattern means you can line up half the bullets on the sides, and that you can hose multiple enemies with less damage loss aiming in the space between them (since the center of your aim is empty).

Why are people aiming the piranha wrong?

Try that same picture, but move the piranha aim down and to the side, and put a second assault trooper next to the other one separated by a reasonable distance.

The fact that the shooter in the picture is aiming the reticule at the upper chest is demonstrating the wrong way to use the Piranha.  It would be like going for headshots with the Scorpion, when you should be aiming at people's feet.

Not long ago, you were saying it it was easier to aim the Piranha vs aiming the Claymore. Seems this story has changed.

No story has changed.  It *IS* easier!  You can aim way to the left or right (or even aim badly, above or below) and still register hits.  You can't just point in a general direction and hose a group with the Claymore and expect to mow them down.  You have to take aim at their center and you can't afford to miss.  Not so with the Piranha.

The fact that it's DIFFERENT to aim doesn't make it HARDER to aim.  The Scorpion is easy to aim too... but you don't aim it the same way you aim a Harrier.

Edit:  Added more info.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 04 août 2012 - 03:58 .

[Lord Rosario]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

NeferiusX3 wrote...

I'll just leave this here.

Heh, yeah. This is why I'm a little resistant to nerfs to it—that spread is pretty accurate too. Unlike the Talon, the Piranha seems hard coded to place as many shots around the edge of the cone as possible.

That spread pattern means you can line up half the bullets on the sides, and that you can hose multiple enemies with less damage loss aiming in the space between them (since the center of your aim is empty).

Why are people aiming the piranha wrong?

Try that same picture, but move the piranha aim down and to the side, and put a second assault trooper next to the other one separated by a reasonable distance.

The fact that the shooter in the picture is aiming the reticule at the upper chest is demonstrating the wrong way to use the Piranha.  It would be like going for headshots with the Scorpion, when you should be aiming at people's feet.

Not long ago, you were saying it it was easier to aim the Piranha vs aiming the Claymore. Seems this story has changed.

It *IS* easier!  You can aim way to the left or right (or even aim badly, above or below) and still register hits.

The fact that it's DIFFERENT to aim doesn't make it HARDER to aim.  The Scorpion is easy to aim too... but you don't aim it the way you aim a Harrier.  That would be retarded.

But it's NOT easier to aim if you want to be doing the same ammount [or more] damage than the Claymore. 7/10 pellets every time is not easy.

Modifié par Lord Rosario, 04 août 2012 - 03:55 .

[nicethugbert]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

It's not just OP on the GI. It's OP for most characters. I see 3 or 4 of them in every lobby even with no Infiltrators in a lobby.

It's a new weapon.  You know that unless it's horrible, a lot of people are going to use it.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 04 août 2012 - 03:55 .

[Rokayt]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

NeferiusX3 wrote...

I'll just leave this here.

First off, aiming as poorly as possible with the Piranha.  Notice what happens if you do what you're supposed to and aim a bit down and to the side (and of course note how you can hit multiple enemies that way).  Second off, compare the damage dealt in either case.  6 Harrier X rounds is about 770 base damage.  Hitting with half of the Piranha pellets is about 700 base damage.

Not to mention, firing two six shot bursts from the harrier takes as long as firing 6 shots from the pirhana.

[neteng101]

You all realize how dumb you sound now right? Even if one aims the Piranha to compensate for the spread pattern, given the recoil, only the first shot is going to be worth anything. Unless you're suggesting firing single shot at a time at which point, who cares about ROF increases, etc even? Yeah the Piranha is wildly inaccurate, and you're all just plain too blinded with your balance baloney to accept the truth.

[ExpiredLifetime]

Lord Rosario wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

ExpiredLifetime wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...


I see no one paid any attention to the idea of making it similar to the Reegar and make it so you ~Can't~ get accuracy bonuses from anywhere else?

The thing to consider with this, however, is that would free up another mod slot. Allowing the weapon's DPS to go even higher.

No it wouldn't... That wouldn't change anything besides almst forcing you to pick something else instead of giving you the choice you currently have. Saying it would free up another slot is just silly. It would limit mod bonuses and ability bonuses as well, meaning it can't get more accuracy than intended.

Currently you nearly *have* to run with a smart choke to be able to hit anything with the gun. By making it so you're unable to use one, that slot currently occupied by the choke is then freed up for something else. Like a shredder being used in conjunction with the EB.

So in other words... since it would force you to use something besides the thing you almost have to use to be able to do anything with it, it would actually weaken the gun, as per the intended idea of making it so you couldn't get accuracy boosts for it.

Yeah, that's a terrible idea then, sorry for even bringing it up.

It would actually raise the gun's already insanely high DPS even more.