215 réponses à ce sujet

[rmccowen]

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Hipfiring is just as accurate, and lower recoil. You can get many more shots in, accurately this way...

Not to mention Barrage gear, and covers existance.

nicethugbert wrote...

Hunters don't care either and they can kill you faster than you can kill them. 
You know about rediculus geth stagger and accuracy and fearlessness. 
Why do you ignore it?

So the Pirhana doesn't outperform the claymore because the geth are so feirce?
Ill have to test that notion. <_<

Claymore staggers.   Piranha does not.  We all know how important stagger is in this game.   You get in range of a hunter to use the piranha on him and he will just 2 shot you and sqee at your piranha before you can get a second shot off.

Hunters don't care about being staggered. If you fail for any reason to take them out with your first Claymore shot, you're just as dead.

Also, you haven't really explained why we're now benchmarking shotguns according to whether they can OKHO Hunters.

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

You're pretending it's only an issue on the GI.  The Piranha's great for just about everyone, including casters with no accuracy bonuses.  Compare it to the Wraith, which weighs the same and is a quite good caster weapon. 

Wraith is crap because of it's miserable ROF.

That "miserable ROF" leaves it with the best DPS, burst and sustained, of any non-DLC shotgun save the Claymore which weighs far, far more.   Of course, the Piranha more than doubles the Wraith's damage output.

Oh, right, everybody wants the wraith so badly.  They would gladly trade their Talons in for a Wraith.

The Wraith is underloved.

rmccowen wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Hipfiring is just as accurate, and lower recoil. You can get many more shots in, accurately this way...

Not to mention Barrage gear, and covers existance.

nicethugbert wrote...

Hunters don't care either and they can kill you faster than you can kill them. 
You know about rediculus geth stagger and accuracy and fearlessness. 
Why do you ignore it?

So the Pirhana doesn't outperform the claymore because the geth are so feirce?
Ill have to test that notion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Claymore
staggers.   Piranha does not.  We all know how important stagger is in
this game.   You get in range of a hunter to use the piranha on him and
he will just 2 shot you and sqee at your piranha before you can get a
second shot off.

Hunters don't care about being
staggered. If you fail for any reason to take them out with your first
Claymore shot, you're just as dead.

Also, you haven't really explained why we're now benchmarking shotguns according to whether they can OKHO Hunters.

I distinctly remember staggering a hunter as a geth enginier on gold yesterday with the Pirhana.

Should I get out my tinfoil hat?

Modifié par Rokayt, 04 août 2012 - 04:26 .

[Gamemako]

As I understand it, the damage bonus can last a full 2.5 seconds. Thus, your damage splits per cloak against armor with full gear (AP ammo III, amp III, barrel, damage cloak, weapon damage build) are as follows:

Piranha: 17205.76 damage
Claymore: 10307.2 damage

Piranha has a 67% advantage. After this, both will reload and start firing again when they cloak. This is, of course, neglecting PM.

[Rokayt]

Gamemako wrote...

As I understand it, the damage bonus can last a full 2.5 seconds. Thus, your damage splits per cloak against armor with full gear (AP ammo III, amp III, barrel, damage cloak, weapon damage build) are as follows:

Piranha: 17205.76 damage
Claymore: 10307.2 damage

Piranha has a 67% advantage. After this, both will reload and start firing again when they cloak. This is, of course, neglecting PM.

Given that a GI can two mag an atlas with the Piranha if he uses proxy mines in each cloak cycle, I am going to say he is absolutely right.

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Claymore
staggers.   Piranha does not.  We all know how important stagger is in
this game.   You get in range of a hunter to use the piranha on him and
he will just 2 shot you and sqee at your piranha before you can get a
second shot off.

Really?

Are you certain that the Pirhana doesnt stagger geth hunters on gold fine sir?

I played gold once since earth came out and I didn't use the Piranha then.  I've been playing platinum where enemies dodge and side hop piranha shots all the time.  And it takes a lot of shots to kill them with piranha on platinum.  But, you know Hunters are ultra cheap on gold.  You guys talk about piranha as if nothing fights back and the opponents aren't cheap at all and staggering your enemy was never important.  Try putting a piranha in a phantoms face and see if that works.  She'll shoot you to death before you can get close and cackle at your piranha all the while.

As a matter of fact, Stardusk prefers Claymore over Piranha, and he doesn't play infiltrators.  Maybe the piranha has higher DPS.  But there are other qualities that make it not the perfect weapon for all occasions.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 04 août 2012 - 04:44 .

[DNC Protoman]

piranha is getting nerfed tues

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

Then its a really poor design choice for the Pirhana to have the same weight as the Wraith, especially when the Pirhanas level of performance is more like a claymore.

Wraith is an ultra-rare.  It should be better than a Claymore.

[Grunt_Platform]

Gamemako wrote...

As I understand it, the damage bonus can last a full 2.5 seconds. Thus, your damage splits per cloak against armor with full gear (AP ammo III, amp III, barrel, damage cloak, weapon damage build) are as follows:

Piranha: 17205.76 damage
Claymore: 10307.2 damage

Piranha has a 67% advantage. After this, both will reload and start firing again when they cloak. This is, of course, neglecting PM.

This. This is why the percentage of damage lost matters.

The Piranha having a DPS advantage over the Claymore isn't the problem. That's fine. But the advantage is so large that the disadvantages of the Piranha tend to melt away.

Personally, I don't want to see the gun taking a large nerf. It's seriously not Krysae level. And I don't even think it's so imbalanced that it needs to be a priority, but if we're going to talk about it then yes: It's a tad out of line.

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 août 2012 - 04:45 .

[rmccowen]

For the love of God, clean up the quotes before you hit "post"...

nicethugbert wrote...

I played gold once since earth came out and I didn't use the Piranha then.  I've been playing platinum where enemies dodge and side hop piranha shots all the time on Platinum.  And it takes a lot of shots to kill them with piranha on platinum.  But, you know Hunters are ultra cheap on gold.  You guys talk about piranha as if nothing fights back and the opponents aren't cheap at all and staggering your enemy was never important.  Try putting a piranha in a phantoms face and see if that works.  She'll shoot you to death before you can get close and cackle at your piranha all the while.

As a matter of fact, Stardusk prefers Claymore over Piranha, and he doesn't play infiltrators.  Maybe the piranha has higher DPS.  But there are other qualities that make it not the perfect weapon for all occasions.

It's not the perfect weapon for all occasions--but it's a surpassingly excellent weapon for many occasions. It's capable of truly ridiculous DPS on paper, and its popularity in play indicates that many people have no difficulty using it effectively enough to prefer it over their other available choices.

Go upthread and read my first post, as well as Gamemako's brand new one--and then ask yourself if a damage advantage of somewhere between 30 and 66% over the Claymore is balanced, even if the Claymore is better at moderate range. Using the same logic, I could argue that the Phaeston is a better weapon than the Harrier, or that the Hornet is a better weapon than the Hurricane.

[Rokayt]

[quote]nicethugbert wrote...

[quote]Rokayt wrote...
[quote]nicethugbert wrote...
[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

The
Piranha doesn't necessarily have a higher risk factor. If you miss
with the Claymore while fighting, say, a Hunter you're screwed. Miss
with the Piranha and you don't even care.... you can just keep firing.
[/quote]

Hunters
don't care either and they can kill you faster than you can kill them. 
You know about rediculus geth stagger and accuracy and fearlessness. 
Why do you ignore it?

[/quote]
So the Pirhana doesn't outperform the claymore because the geth are so feirce?
Ill have to test that notion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

[/quote]

Claymore
staggers.   Piranha does not.  We all know how important stagger is in
this game.   You get in range of a hunter to use the piranha on him and
he will just 2 shot you and sqee at your piranha before you can get a
second shot off.
[/quote]

Really?

Are you certain that the Pirhana doesnt stagger geth hunters on gold fine sir?

[/quote]

I played gold once since earth came out and I didn't use the Piranha then.  I've been playing platinum where enemies dodge and side hop piranha shots all the time on Platinum.  And it takes a lot of shots to kill them with piranha on platinum.  But, you know Hunters are ultra cheap on gold.  You guys talk about piranha as if nothing fights back and the opponents aren't cheap at all and staggering your enemy was never important.  Try putting a piranha in a phantoms face and see if that works.  She'll shoot you to death before you can get close and cackle at your piranha all the while.

As a matter of fact, Stardusk prefers Claymore over Piranha, and he doesn't play infiltrators.  Maybe the piranha has higher DPS.  But there are other qualities that make it not the perfect weapon for all occasions.

[/quote]

The Piranha is still a far better weapon then a weapon of that weight should be.

My nerf would be +.45 weight, +10% recoil.

Enemies being cheap on the highest difficulty does not mean our methods used to counter them must be totally cheap in response. The people who play the highest difficulties know they have to put up with the hardest of the hard.

The Pirhana is an absolutely excellent gun against phantoms, it counters their ability to move around quickly very well due to its spread, allowing for quick disposal of them from my experience.

[quote]nicethugbert wrote...

[quote]Rokayt wrote...

Then
its a really poor design choice for the Pirhana to have the same weight
as the Wraith, especially when the Pirhanas level of performance is more
like a claymore.
[/quote]

Wraith is an ultra-rare.  It should be better than a Claymore.

[/quote]

Its weight is half that of the claymore, and it is almost as good.

What is peoples obsession with trying to obsolete the claymore?

Modifié par Rokayt, 04 août 2012 - 04:45 .

[nicethugbert]

rmccowen wrote...

Hunters don't care about being staggered. If you fail for any reason to take them out with your first Claymore shot, you're just as dead.

Also, you haven't really explained why we're now benchmarking shotguns according to whether they can OKHO Hunters.

Ask Godlesspaladin.  He was trying to use hunters to make his point.

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Hunters don't care about being staggered. If you fail for any reason to take them out with your first Claymore shot, you're just as dead.

Also, you haven't really explained why we're now benchmarking shotguns according to whether they can OKHO Hunters.

Ask Godlesspaladin.  He was trying to use hunters to make his point.

If you miss a hunter with a claymore, you die, if you miss them with the pirhana, you hold down the trigger.

It doesn't require much explaining.

There are so many fun debates today. <3

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...
The Piranha is still a far better weapon then a weapon of that weight should be.

No it's not.  It's just popular now because it's the new thing and not total crap.

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Then
its a really poor design choice for the Pirhana to have the same weight
as the Wraith, especially when the Pirhanas level of performance is more
like a claymore.

Wraith is an ultra-rare.  It should be better than a Claymore.

Its weight is half that of the claymore, and it is almost as good.

What is peoples obsession with trying to obsolete the claymore?

It is not almost as good.  The time between first and second shot is stupid long, compararable to the reload time.  You're better off getting the extra damage of the claymore and reload canceling.  Wraith is so under appreciated, no one uses it, not the record speed runners, not the people with the best aim and reload cancel, no one except the guy that is about to find out how crappy it is.

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...
The Piranha is still a far better weapon then a weapon of that weight should be.

No it's not.  It's just popular now because it's the new thing and not total crap.

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Then
its a really poor design choice for the Pirhana to have the same weight
as the Wraith, especially when the Pirhanas level of performance is more
like a claymore.

Wraith is an ultra-rare.  It should be better than a Claymore.

Its weight is half that of the claymore, and it is almost as good.

What is peoples obsession with trying to obsolete the claymore?

It is not almost as good.  The time between first and second shot is stupid long, compararable to the reload time.  You're better off getting the extra damage of the claymore and reload canceling.  Wraith is so under appreciated, no one uses it, not the record speed runners, not the people with the best aim and reload cancel, no one except the guy that is about to find out how crappy it is.

It is steady, reliable, and it was the best shotgun for someone who wanted to shotgun with a caster.

Now that gun also happens to be a better then the claymore, while also being a chainsaw.

Modifié par Rokayt, 04 août 2012 - 05:00 .

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Hunters don't care about being staggered. If you fail for any reason to take them out with your first Claymore shot, you're just as dead.

Also, you haven't really explained why we're now benchmarking shotguns according to whether they can OKHO Hunters.

Ask Godlesspaladin.  He was trying to use hunters to make his point.

If you miss a hunter with a claymore, you die, if you miss them with the pirhana, you hold down the trigger.

It doesn't require much explaining.

There are so many fun debates today. <3

I know, the debates, so much fun.  One day the geth are the cheapest bastard in gaming history.  The next day, we conveniantly forget because Piranha nerf is all the rage.  Enchantment.

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...
The Piranha is still a far better weapon then a weapon of that weight should be.

No it's not.  It's just popular now because it's the new thing and not total crap.

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Then
its a really poor design choice for the Pirhana to have the same weight
as the Wraith, especially when the Pirhanas level of performance is more
like a claymore.

Wraith is an ultra-rare.  It should be better than a Claymore.

Its weight is half that of the claymore, and it is almost as good.

What is peoples obsession with trying to obsolete the claymore?

It is not almost as good.  The time between first and second shot is stupid long, compararable to the reload time.  You're better off getting the extra damage of the claymore and reload canceling.  Wraith is so under appreciated, no one uses it, not the record speed runners, not the people with the best aim and reload cancel, no one except the guy that is about to find out how crappy it is.

It is steady, reliable, and it was the best shotgun for someone who wanted to shotgun with a caster.

Now that gun also happens to be a better then the claymore, while also being a chainsaw.

Talon.

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Hunters don't care about being staggered. If you fail for any reason to take them out with your first Claymore shot, you're just as dead.

Also, you haven't really explained why we're now benchmarking shotguns according to whether they can OKHO Hunters.

Ask Godlesspaladin.  He was trying to use hunters to make his point.

If you miss a hunter with a claymore, you die, if you miss them with the pirhana, you hold down the trigger.

It doesn't require much explaining.

There are so many fun debates today. <3

I know, the debates, so much fun.  One day the geth are the cheapest bastard in gaming history.  The next day, we conveniantly forget because Piranha nerf is all the rage.  Enchantment.

I think It will be locust love threads, actually.

[nicethugbert]

Cheesystick wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You know the harrier user would have killed that trooper before the piranha user could have gotten close enough to land one pellet on that trooper.

Depends on the map/player, most piranha users I see is a mobile savage brute, most harrier users I see is a dirty dirty ammo camper.

That is the point we are trying to make.  It depends.  But the nerfers want to ignore anything that interferes with their god-mode narrative.

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

Cheesystick wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You know the harrier user would have killed that trooper before the piranha user could have gotten close enough to land one pellet on that trooper.

Depends on the map/player, most piranha users I see is a mobile savage brute, most harrier users I see is a dirty dirty ammo camper.

That is the point we are trying to make.  It depends.  But the nerfers want to ignore anything that interferes with their god-mode narrative.

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

You are compairing 1/2 a second or pirhana fire with two seconds of harrier fire (See the JPG from earleir.)

Modifié par Rokayt, 04 août 2012 - 05:10 .

[DNC Protoman]

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Cheesystick wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You know the harrier user would have killed that trooper before the piranha user could have gotten close enough to land one pellet on that trooper.

Depends on the map/player, most piranha users I see is a mobile savage brute, most harrier users I see is a dirty dirty ammo camper.

That is the point we are trying to make.  It depends.  But the nerfers want to ignore anything that interferes with their god-mode narrative.

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

You are compairing 1/2 a second or pirhana fire with two seconds of harrier fire (See the JPG from earleir.)

You speak the truth.  Rest assured, those who are trying to defend the OP piranha are backed into a corner.

[neteng101]

Rokayt wrote...

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

What manner of failure to understand is this exactly?  You can get like 2 out of 8 pellets if you're lucky at long range.

The level of comprehension on BSN has definitely hit a new low here.  Some people clearly need to learn how to play the game.

Machine gun with tracers?

[Rokayt]

neteng101 wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

What manner of failure to understand is this exactly?  You can get like 2 out of 8 pellets if you're lucky at long range.

The level of comprehension on BSN has definitely hit a new low here.  Some people clearly need to learn how to play the game.

Machine gun with tracers?

Hitting two pellets at sniper ranges with a shotgun is extiemely impressive.

Hitting with 5-6 pellets at medium ranges with a shotgun is paticularly insane. Especially one that is suppose to be balanced due to it being paticularly inaccurate (but failing, due to having a predictable spread pattern.)

As to the Tracers comment: A lot of armies use machineguns with bullets that catch on fire so they can be seen in flight, this is so they can be accuratly hipfired, as you can see the stream of bullets, and adjust accordingly.

The black streams that the pihanas pellets leave behind are also paticularly visible, which allow you to line up that black stream of pain when hipfiring.

Modifié par Rokayt, 04 août 2012 - 05:20 .

[Grunt_Platform]

neteng101 wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

What manner of failure to understand is this exactly?  You can get like 2 out of 8 pellets if you're lucky at long range.

The level of comprehension on BSN has definitely hit a new low here.  Some people clearly need to learn how to play the game.

Machine gun with tracers?

I just think you're overestimating the value of long range accuracy.

If long range mattered that much in this game, sniper rifles would be a lot more effective, even with their current damage levels, and people would be debating the utility of the Reegar. The fact is, most encounters in the game happen at really short ranges.

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 août 2012 - 05:22 .

[Kalas Magnus]

DNC Protoman wrote...

piranha is getting nerfed tues

 They are going to over-nerf it.

Back to my claymore I guess.

[Ulrich282]

Piranha X with High Caliber V and Shredder V
Damage 665
Capacity 64
Weight 0.90
Clip Size 8
Rate of Fire 150.0 (RPM)
Accuracy 10.0
Burst DPS 1663.1
Sustained DPS 922.4
Reload Cancelled DPS 1254.9
Damage vs Armor
623/581/525
DPS v Armor (Sust)
864/806/728
DPS v Armor (RC)
1176/1097/991
Reload Time 2.6 (s)
Recoil 2.2
Distance Penetrated 0.65 (m)

Claymore X with High Caliber V and Shredder V
Damage 2060
Capacity 18
Weight 2.00
Clip Size 1
Rate of Fire 64.0 (RPM)
Accuracy 10.0
Burst DPS N/A
Sustained DPS 587.3
Reload Cancelled DPS 1041.3
Damage vs Armor
2018/1976/1920
DPS v Armor (Sust)
575/563/547
DPS v Armor (RC)
1020/999/971
Reload Time 2.6 (s)
Recoil 4.4
Distance Penetrated 0.65 (m)

Modifié par Ulrich282, 04 août 2012 - 07:02 .