215 réponses à ce sujet

[Rokayt]

Ulrich282 wrote...

Piranha X with High Caliber V and Smart Choke V
Damage 665
Capacity 64
Weight 0.90
Clip Size 8
Rate of Fire 150.0 (RPM)
Accuracy 15.0
Burst DPS 1663.1
Sustained DPS 922.4
Reload Cancelled DPS 1254.9
Damage vs Armor
545/425/265
DPS v Armor (Sust)
756/590/368
DPS v Armor (RC)
1029/802/500
Reload Time 2.6 (s)
Recoil 2.2

Piranha X with High Caliber V and Shredder V
Damage 665
Capacity 64
Weight 0.90
Clip Size 8
Rate of Fire 150.0 (RPM)
Accuracy 10.0
Burst DPS 1663.1
Sustained DPS 922.4
Reload Cancelled DPS 1254.9
Damage vs Armor
623/581/525
DPS v Armor (Sust)
864/806/728
DPS v Armor (RC)
1176/1097/991
Reload Time 2.6 (s)
Recoil 2.2
Distance Penetrated 0.65 (m)

Claymore X with High Caliber V and Shredder V
Damage 2060
Capacity 18
Weight 2.00
Clip Size 1
Rate of Fire 64.0 (RPM)
Accuracy 10.0
Burst DPS N/A
Sustained DPS 587.3
Reload Cancelled DPS 1041.3
Damage vs Armor
2018/1976/1920
DPS v Armor (Sust)
575/563/547
DPS v Armor (RC)
1020/999/971
Reload Time 2.6 (s)
Recoil 4.4
Distance Penetrated 0.65 (m)

That accuracy stat from the greasemonkey app is the exact same accuracy stat that the uneven bars in game shows...

It does not account for spread, or anything related to accuacy.

The smart choke halves your spread. It doesn't boost your spread score by 50%.

The difference is tremendous.

[M47R1X]

To be totally honest, I have both guns. Granted, the Piranha is only I while the Claymore is X, but I would still much rather take my Claymore on my GI.

Why?

Because the dang thing is made of wet tissue paper in HM on G or P. I need my cover. Plus, I don't miss very often.

Maybe when I get my Piranha all the way up to X I'll see what all the rage is, but for now, I'm sticking with my big ol' boomstick.

Modifié par M47R1X, 04 août 2012 - 05:46 .

[Rokayt]

M47R1X wrote...

To be totally honest, I have both guns. Granted, the Piranha is only I while the Claymore is X, but I would still much rather take my Claymore on my GI.

Why?

Because the dang thing is made of wet tissue paper in HM on G or P. I need my cover. Plus, I don't miss very often.

Maybe when I get my Piranha all the way up to X I'll see what all the rage is, but for now, I'm sticking with my big ol' boomstick.

It is an aquired taste, but this aquired taste actually is clearly superior when it is well learned.

[nicethugbert]

rmccowen wrote...
.... its popularity in play indicates that many people have no difficulty using it effectively enough to prefer it over their other available choices.

Piranha is the new Krysae.  Nerfers railed against Krysae endlessly.  By the time BW got around to nerfing it, everybody had gotten bored of it and moved on.  It's popular because it's new and does not totally suck.  So, popularity in this instance means nothing.

rmccowen wrote...
Go upthread and read my first post, as well as Gamemako's brand new one--and then ask yourself if a damage advantage of somewhere between 30 and 66% over the Claymore is balanced, even if the Claymore is better at moderate range. Using the same logic, I could argue that the Phaeston is a better weapon than the Harrier, or that the Hornet is a better weapon than the Hurricane.

I can argue that the Claymore is better because it puts out more damage in a shorter time frame.  A Claymore headshot is all you need.  Before the Piranha has emptied a clip into one enemy, I'm onto the next.  That is the advantage of a precision weapon, which the piranha is not.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 04 août 2012 - 06:09 .

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...
The Pirhana is an absolutely excellent gun against phantoms, it counters their ability to move around quickly very well due to its spread, allowing for quick disposal of them from my experience.

From my experience on platinum, it's a death sentence.  Phantoms laugh at Piranha.  They have plenty of time to dance around and slice you to peices before you can kill them.

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

M47R1X wrote...

To be totally honest, I have both guns. Granted, the Piranha is only I while the Claymore is X, but I would still much rather take my Claymore on my GI.

Why?

Because the dang thing is made of wet tissue paper in HM on G or P. I need my cover. Plus, I don't miss very often.

Maybe when I get my Piranha all the way up to X I'll see what all the rage is, but for now, I'm sticking with my big ol' boomstick.

It is an aquired taste, but this aquired taste actually is clearly superior when it is well learned.

That is exactly the argument people use to protect Claymore from nerfs.

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Cheesystick wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You know the harrier user would have killed that trooper before the piranha user could have gotten close enough to land one pellet on that trooper.

Depends on the map/player, most piranha users I see is a mobile savage brute, most harrier users I see is a dirty dirty ammo camper.

That is the point we are trying to make.  It depends.  But the nerfers want to ignore anything that interferes with their god-mode narrative.

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

You are compairing 1/2 a second or pirhana fire with two seconds of harrier fire (See the JPG from earleir.)

But, "with practice" is the argument people use to protect the claymore from nerfs.  You're saying that Piranha requires skill to use at range.  Well, skill deserves to be rewarded, right?  Then you can't nerf the Piranha anymore than you can the Claymore.

Additionally, at range, you don't hit a target with all of the pellets.  So, you can't say, "OMG SCARRY SCARRY LOOK AT ALL THE DAMAGE", then when you're doing half the damage keep saying, "OMG SCARRY SCARRY LOOK AT ALL THE DAMAGE".

Modifié par nicethugbert, 04 août 2012 - 12:39 .

[DHKany]

They should increase weight by a bit, lets say GPS or Graal like (1.4 i believe?).
also bring down the spare ammo capacity to 40-32 ish as 64 rounds is just ludicrous.

[rmccowen]

Okay, let's set the Claymore aside for a moment.

A Reegar, using the same assumptions I used earlier for the Piranha, does 3448 damage in the Cloak window. That gets a +200% bonus versus shields, which works out to 10,345--within 5% of the Piranha's 10,111.

I'll re-state that: the Piranha and Reegar do equivalent damage against shields. Against armor, the Piranha does 2.5x the Reegar's damage (and again, that's before considering the effects of any consumable ammo or amp).

The Piranha is insane at close range, and unlike the Reegar, there's no technical reason you can't use it out to moderate range--although you need a Smart Choke and either an accuracy boost or reasonably good aim.

[Pedro Costa]

DarthVarner wrote...
It's light.  A lot of casters don't care what they are packing, so long as it gets them near +200% CDs.  The Disciple was and is hilariously horrible; not much else shotgun-wise could make the 200% cut, but the Piranha gets close enough.

The reason I pack the Piranha on a caster class is because I want to be able to do something against the Pyro / Hunter / Centurion / Marauder / Hunter that unexpectedly rounds the corner when my powers are on CD, or is camping my corpse after I get shocked back into the round.  

THAT is why casters and people that aren't GIs / Turian Soldiers / Devastators are packing the Piranha.  The new factor has something to do with it, but basically it fills in the "oh crap I'm gonna die" gap between their powers better than anything else.  

And it does so beautifully, while being completely balanced in their hands.

This... just, this.
That said, I don't think rolling back the buff it got after release would hurt the weapon for casters.

Asebstos wrote...
Yes, so balanced that they don't have to even consider using another gun, even a Wraith X.

Wait a minute...

 
I don't have a Wraith X. Not even a Wraith I.
You're essentially arguing that people shouldn't have a decent, light rare weapon because its ultra rare at max level isn't used. You know perfectly well the store is bad, and that for many people getting a ultra-rare is a very difficult thing to do.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 04 août 2012 - 01:57 .

[Immortal Strife]

The Pirahna is the most effective gun for so many classes that I have to look pretty hard through my characters to find one that is not rolling with it. The weight and damage are too much and need to be altered slightly because right now it fills to many roles.

[DarthVarner]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

DarthVarner wrote...
It's light.  A lot of casters don't care what they are packing, so long as it gets them near +200% CDs.  The Disciple was and is hilariously horrible; not much else shotgun-wise could make the 200% cut, but the Piranha gets close enough.

The reason I pack the Piranha on a caster class is because I want to be able to do something against the Pyro / Hunter / Centurion / Marauder / Hunter that unexpectedly rounds the corner when my powers are on CD, or is camping my corpse after I get shocked back into the round.  

THAT is why casters and people that aren't GIs / Turian Soldiers / Devastators are packing the Piranha.  The new factor has something to do with it, but basically it fills in the "oh crap I'm gonna die" gap between their powers better than anything else.  

And it does so beautifully, while being completely balanced in their hands.

This... just, this.
That said, I don't think rolling back the buff it got after release would hurt the weapon for casters.

Asebstos wrote...
Yes, so balanced that they don't have to even consider using another gun, even a Wraith X.

Wait a minute...

 
I don't have a Wraith X. Not even a Wraith I.
You're essentially arguing that people shouldn't have a decent, light rare weapon because its ultra rare at max level isn't used. You know perfectly well the store is bad, and that for many people getting a ultra-rare is a very difficult thing to do.

Bingo.

I play with very skilled friends and we run quick matches.  None of these people have URs maxed (save my RNG-oddity Scorpion).  My Wraith is not high enough level to consider carrying on a true caster class.  The other light options available are crap or pistols with not-so-great stopping power.  Even my Talon IV isn't light enough.

Seriously, Asbestos, think for a minute here - what is the population that has a Piranha X?  Probably farily large.  What is the population that has a Wraith X?  

Yeah.  Try again.

Modifié par DarthVarner, 04 août 2012 - 03:32 .

[Immortal Strife]

Air Quotes wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

The Pirahna is the most effective gun for so many classes that I have to look pretty hard through my characters to find one that is not rolling with it. The weight and damage are too much and need to be altered slightly because right now it fills to many roles.

Well yeah, because other weapons are CRAP! Who wants to use a Disciple? Katana? Scimitar? No? Even Wraith gets a bad rep. 

Yes, you are correct about the other shotguns not being very good. The solution is a difficult one no doubt, but I believe a change is inevitable. The Pirahna is universally great and renders even good weapons obsolete, it's a be all weapon.

[havok561]

Why must everything be nerfed??? I mean aren't all factor's weighed in before the guns are released? Isn't the homework done?? It's like here have this awesome gun for a week then not being able to get it in a pack before it gets nerfed, Seriously leave the Piranha alone, for once just leave one gun alone.

[nicethugbert]

rmccowen wrote...

Okay, let's set the Claymore aside for a moment.

A Reegar, using the same assumptions I used earlier for the Piranha, does 3448 damage in the Cloak window. That gets a +200% bonus versus shields, which works out to 10,345--within 5% of the Piranha's 10,111.

I'll re-state that: the Piranha and Reegar do equivalent damage against shields. Against armor, the Piranha does 2.5x the Reegar's damage (and again, that's before considering the effects of any consumable ammo or amp).

The Piranha is insane at close range, and unlike the Reegar, there's no technical reason you can't use it out to moderate range--although you need a Smart Choke and either an accuracy boost or reasonably good aim.

There was no good reaon to increase the weight on the reeger to, begin with.  Reeger was another fad weapon people freaked out about.

And, I've used both and I don't see the reeger falling behind in actual use.  It's been remarked that the reeger has unknown distance mechanics where it has been observed to be sensitive to distance even within it's very small range.

I suspect the math is wrong.

[Immortal Strife]

Air Quotes wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...
The Pirahna is the most effective gun for so many classes that I have to look pretty hard through my characters to find one that is not rolling with it. The weight and damage are too much and need to be altered slightly because right now it fills to many roles.

Well yeah, because other weapons are CRAP! Who wants to use a Disciple? Katana? Scimitar? No? Even Wraith gets a bad rep. 

Yes, you are correct about the other shotguns not being very good. The solution is a difficult one no doubt, but I believe a change is inevitable. The Pirahna is universally great and renders even good weapons obsolete, it's a be all weapon.

Harrier makes ALL AR's obsolete. Hurricane makes ALL SMG's obsolete. 
Nerf them too. 

Both of those weapons are great too but they are hard to get. I would not be surprised if the Harrier saw a damage nerf in the near future however.

[DNC Protoman]

Air Quotes wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Immortal Strife wrote...

The Pirahna is the most effective gun for so many classes that I have to look pretty hard through my characters to find one that is not rolling with it. The weight and damage are too much and need to be altered slightly because right now it fills to many roles.

Well yeah, because other weapons are CRAP! Who wants to use a Disciple? Katana? Scimitar? No? Even Wraith gets a bad rep. 

Yes, you are correct about the other shotguns not being very good. The solution is a difficult one no doubt, but I believe a change is inevitable. The Pirahna is universally great and renders even good weapons obsolete, it's a be all weapon.

Harrier makes ALL AR's obsolete. Hurricane makes ALL SMG's obsolete. 

Nerf them too. 

Negative on both accounts. 

Harrier  is balanced by low clip / reserve ammo and higher weight. It dosen't make mattock, typhoon, Revanent, Saber, falcon, particle rifle, or any other obsolete.  It offers a differenent Option to them.  It is balanced.


Hurricane  has high recoil and runs out of ammo quick.  It dosen't invalidate the temptest or Hornet.  Those two offer a different kind of effective stragey from the hurricane.  Hurricane is balanced.

Your arguments are weak and debunked easily, yet again.

[UserUnknown85]

Rokayt wrote...

Gamemako wrote...

As I understand it, the damage bonus can last a full 2.5 seconds. Thus, your damage splits per cloak against armor with full gear (AP ammo III, amp III, barrel, damage cloak, weapon damage build) are as follows:

Piranha: 17205.76 damage
Claymore: 10307.2 damage

Piranha has a 67% advantage. After this, both will reload and start firing again when they cloak. This is, of course, neglecting PM.

Given that a GI can two mag an atlas with the Piranha if he uses proxy mines in each cloak cycle, I am going to say he is absolutely right.

Actually, a geared up GI can 9 shot a gold atlas, provided he cloaks/proxies twice. Same setup and a claymore needs 4 shots. So the piranha can kill an atlas and still retain most of his second cycles' damage to shoot at other stuff. With the claymore, you need the full 2 cloak cycles to take that atlas down.

Regarding the subject, here are my two cents.

People make the gun's accuracy too much of a deal. The thing is, all of the high hp enemies in the game are pretty big and are going to eat a lot of pellets to the face, even at midrange. Does it really matter if you are wasting damage against troopers? You are going to kill them awful fast anyway... Even if you miss with 25% of pellets (6/8), piranha still has the highest DPS in the game!

Right now, shooting the piranha is the most powerful thing that you can be doing.

[audicdm]

Nice analysis however and I know you're not making a case either for or against nerfing so this isn't directed to the OP.  I would see it as a mistake to base weapons balance analysis and case for buffing (or nerfing) on what one class, or sub-unit in a class, can do with it...Especially the Geth Infiltrator.

classes need to be more balanced before any weapons stats should be changed, but this the most difficult aspect to change with the variety of powers, perks and other factors that influence each individual character in a given class.  

Beyond that, there are different characters/classes that may share the same powers with another class and yet are far more effective at using it based on the other supportive powers in their skill set (i.e. Adjusting a power to nerf a stronger character may add to the unusability of a weaker character with the same power). 

- I don't expect character or class balance to ever be fully achieved, which is fine.

With that said, I also think it's alright to be somewhat lacking in weapons balance.  I would expect, through natural playing progression, that Rare level weapons (harder to earn) would be somewhat "better" overall than Uncommon ones and URs to be a little better than Rare weapons and/or otherwise have some feature that makes them UR (inherent piercing etc...).

- What would be the point of playing if your spent your credits to unlock items of increasing rarity that roughly had the same statistics and mechanics? 

Modifié par audicdm, 04 août 2012 - 04:38 .

[Cyonan]

audicdm wrote...
With that said, I also think it's alright to be somewhat lacking in weapons balance.  I would expect, through natural playing progression, that Rare level weapons (harder to earn) would be somewhat "better" overall than Uncommon ones and URs to be a little better than Rare weapons and/or otherwise have some feature that makes them UR (inherent piercing etc...).

- What would be the point of playing if your spent your credits to unlock items of increasing rarity that roughly had the same statistics and mechanics? 

The thing about this is that the only ultra-rare shotgun, the Wraith, has been rendered largely irrelevant with the N7 Piranha around.

The main reason the Wraith was used was because it was a light shotgun that didn't sacrifice a ton of power. It was great for casters.

Now though, the Piranha weighs just as much and annihilates the Wraith in terms of damage output.

[audicdm]

Cyonan wrote...

audicdm wrote...
With that said, I also think it's alright to be somewhat lacking in weapons balance.  I would expect, through natural playing progression, that Rare level weapons (harder to earn) would be somewhat "better" overall than Uncommon ones and URs to be a little better than Rare weapons and/or otherwise have some feature that makes them UR (inherent piercing etc...).

- What would be the point of playing if your spent your credits to unlock items of increasing rarity that roughly had the same statistics and mechanics? 

The thing about this is that the only ultra-rare shotgun, the Wraith, has been rendered largely irrelevant with the N7 Piranha around.

The main reason the Wraith was used was because it was a light shotgun that didn't sacrifice a ton of power. It was great for casters.

Now though, the Piranha weighs just as much and annihilates the Wraith in terms of damage output.

I couldn't agree more.  I'm definitely not saying that their existing balance of weapons meets my expectations.  I would like to see my idea modeled while they fine tune the character balances.

[Pedro Costa]

Cyonan wrote...
Now though, the Piranha weighs just as much and annihilates the Wraith in terms of damage output.

Then, why don't we switch the Piranha to UR and the Wraith to Rare?