215 réponses à ce sujet

[nicethugbert]

DNC Protoman wrote...

Harrier  is balanced by low clip / reserve ammo and higher weight. It dosen't make mattock, typhoon, Revanent, Saber, falcon, particle rifle, or any other obsolete.  It offers a differenent Option to them.  It is balanced.


Hurricane  has high recoil and runs out of ammo quick.  It dosen't invalidate the temptest or Hornet.  Those two offer a different kind of effective stragey from the hurricane.  Hurricane is balanced.

Your arguments are weak and debunked easily, yet again.

Then why are they Ultra-rare or Promotional if they don't surpass other weapons in their category?  If they are just merely different then I don't see the justification for Ultra-rare or Promotional status.

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

M47R1X wrote...

To be totally honest, I have both guns. Granted, the Piranha is only I while the Claymore is X, but I would still much rather take my Claymore on my GI.

Why?

Because the dang thing is made of wet tissue paper in HM on G or P. I need my cover. Plus, I don't miss very often.

Maybe when I get my Piranha all the way up to X I'll see what all the rage is, but for now, I'm sticking with my big ol' boomstick.

It is an aquired taste, but this aquired taste actually is clearly superior when it is well learned.

Same for the Claymore and it's just a rare.

[Schneidend]

People who want Piranha nerfs...must not be using the Piranha. It's a great gun, but nobody except a tank class (Kroguard, Destroyer, etc.) can just stand in front of an Atlas wailing on it with the Piranha on Gold/Platinum.

[Grunt_Platform]

nicethugbert wrote...

DNC Protoman wrote...

Harrier  is balanced by low clip / reserve ammo and higher weight. It dosen't make mattock, typhoon, Revanent, Saber, falcon, particle rifle, or any other obsolete.  It offers a differenent Option to them.  It is balanced.


Hurricane  has high recoil and runs out of ammo quick.  It dosen't invalidate the temptest or Hornet.  Those two offer a different kind of effective stragey from the hurricane.  Hurricane is balanced.

Your arguments are weak and debunked easily, yet again.

Then why are they Ultra-rare or Promotional if they don't surpass other weapons in their category?  If they are just merely different then I don't see the justification for Ultra-rare or Promotional status.

Because they do something special and/or cool. Each Ultra Rare has something flashy and special about it, as it should be.

If Ultra Rares were always the best weapons, that would just be a worse barrier to entry in the game. As it is, not having a Harrier is already a serious handicap for the higher difficulties. The fact that most common weapons are useless above Bronze is a problem.

Modifié par EvanKester, 04 août 2012 - 06:16 .

[nicethugbert]

Cyonan wrote...

The thing about this is that the only ultra-rare shotgun, the Wraith, has been rendered largely irrelevant with the N7 Piranha around.

The main reason the Wraith was used was because it was a light shotgun that didn't sacrifice a ton of power. It was great for casters.

Now though, the Piranha weighs just as much and annihilates the Wraith in terms of damage output.

The Wraith was already largely irrelevant thanks to the Claymore and speed runners, such as yourself and your crew, and soloers have made that case on youtube many many times.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 04 août 2012 - 06:16 .

[rmccowen]

Cyonan wrote...

The main reason the Wraith was used was because it was a light shotgun that didn't sacrifice a ton of power. It was great for casters.

Now though, the Piranha weighs just as much and annihilates the Wraith in terms of damage output.

To be fair, within its useful range it annihilates everything in terms of damage output.

[Core_Commander]

Schneidend wrote...

People who want Piranha nerfs...must not be using the Piranha. It's a great gun, but nobody except a tank class (Kroguard, Destroyer, etc.) can just stand in front of an Atlas wailing on it with the Piranha on Gold/Platinum.

I'm using it on every class and it performs... well, best.

If you don't know how to use tall cover without entering it, while peppering an Atlas with the Piranha (hint: you're doing it wrong. Don't "just stand there", you'll die! Use directional buttons to move), or circle strafe Ravagers/Brutes with it... then you should learn. Movement is overpowered.

nicethugbert wrote...

The Wraith was already largely irrelevant thanks to the Claymore and speed runners, such as yourself and your crew, and soloers have made that case on youtube many many times.

Speaking of speed running, seen that newest Platinum speed record? A bit over 10:58 minutes, to the tune of 3 Piranhas and a Harrier.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 04 août 2012 - 09:54 .

[nicethugbert]

EvanKester wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

DNC Protoman wrote...

Harrier  is balanced by low clip / reserve ammo and higher weight. It dosen't make mattock, typhoon, Revanent, Saber, falcon, particle rifle, or any other obsolete.  It offers a differenent Option to them.  It is balanced.


Hurricane  has high recoil and runs out of ammo quick.  It dosen't invalidate the temptest or Hornet.  Those two offer a different kind of effective stragey from the hurricane.  Hurricane is balanced.

Your arguments are weak and debunked easily, yet again.

Then why are they Ultra-rare or Promotional if they don't surpass other weapons in their category?  If they are just merely different then I don't see the justification for Ultra-rare or Promotional status.

Because they do something special and/or cool. Each Ultra Rare has something flashy and special about it, as it should be.

If Ultra Rares were always the best weapons, that would just be a worse barrier to entry in the game. As it is, not having a Harrier is already a serious handicap for the higher difficulties. The fact that most common weapons are useless above Bronze is a problem.

Yeah, the hurricane puts all other smg to shame, as well as many other guns.  It's special like that.

If higher DPS guns are not rarer than lower DPS guns then how do you decide the rarity of a gun?

[nicethugbert]

Core_Commander wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

People who want Piranha nerfs...must not be using the Piranha. It's a great gun, but nobody except a tank class (Kroguard, Destroyer, etc.) can just stand in front of an Atlas wailing on it with the Piranha on Gold/Platinum.

I'm using it on every class and it performs... well, best.

If you don't know how to use tall cover without entering it, while peppering an Atlas with the Piranha (hint: you're doing it wrong. Don't "just stand there", you'll die! Use directional buttons to move), or circle strafe Ravagers/Brutes with it... then you should learn. Movement is overpowered.

nicethugbert wrote...

The Wraith was already largely irrelevant thanks to the Claymore and speed runners, such as yourself and your crew, and soloers have made that case on youtube many many times.

Speaking of speed running, seen that newest Platinum speed record? A bit over 9 minutes, to the tune of 3 Piranhas and a Harrier.

Maybe they got bored of claymore.  But, when they were choosing the Claymore over the Wraith, I don't remember them saying that the Claymore was overpowered.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 04 août 2012 - 06:28 .

[Core_Commander]

nicethugbert wrote...

Maybe they got bored of claymore.  But, when they were choosing the Claymore over the Wraith, I don't remember them saying that the Claymore was overpowered.

Yes, I am certain that people going for a record break in Platinum speedrunning have that first in foremost in their mind: whether they're bored of something or not. Three of them getting bored of the same thing and switching to the same other thing just because of taste is just as likely.

About your second sentence... got a point there, or is it just a random thought? Piranha is more powerful than Claymore in nearly every situation, unless you go out of your way to aim it wrong.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 04 août 2012 - 10:02 .

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Cheesystick wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You know the harrier user would have killed that trooper before the piranha user could have gotten close enough to land one pellet on that trooper.

Depends on the map/player, most piranha users I see is a mobile savage brute, most harrier users I see is a dirty dirty ammo camper.

That is the point we are trying to make.  It depends.  But the nerfers want to ignore anything that interferes with their god-mode narrative.

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

You are compairing 1/2 a second or pirhana fire with two seconds of harrier fire (See the JPG from earleir.)

But, "with practice" is the argument people use to protect the claymore from nerfs.  You're saying that Piranha requires skill to use at range.  Well, skill deserves to be rewarded, right?  Then you can't nerf the Piranha anymore than you can the Claymore.

Additionally, at range, you don't hit a target with all of the pellets.  So, you can't say, "OMG SCARRY SCARRY LOOK AT ALL THE DAMAGE", then when you're doing half the damage keep saying, "OMG SCARRY SCARRY LOOK AT ALL THE DAMAGE".

Its still far superior damage to most medium ranged weapons at medium range.

8700 DPS at mid range against a small sized target is mildly insane. Think of another weapon that does that?

And its still far more predictable at range then the average claymore.

The same build would be doing 2500-4000 DPS With the Revenant (Consumableless/with consumables+gear,) which has a similar, questionable long range value.

If it beats medium range guns at medium range, while being lighter, what does this mean? 

Modifié par Rokayt, 04 août 2012 - 10:15 .

[Asebstos]

nicethugbert wrote...
The Wraith was already largely irrelevant thanks to the Claymore and speed runners, such as yourself and your crew, and soloers have made that case on youtube many many times.

The Wraith is a lightweight caster-friendly gun. It filled a different role than the heavy/high DPS claymore. Now we have a gun that is lightweight and caster-friendly and has the highest DPS.

[nicethugbert]

Asebstos wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
The Wraith was already largely irrelevant thanks to the Claymore and speed runners, such as yourself and your crew, and soloers have made that case on youtube many many times.

The Wraith is a lightweight caster-friendly gun. It filled a different role than the heavy/high DPS claymore. Now we have a gun that is lightweight and caster-friendly and has the highest DPS.

Even before the Piranha arrived, the Wraith was largely ignored.  That's how caster friendly it is.  Most people prefer the Talon over the Wraith.  Using the Wraith as some sort of immovable standard just implies how horrible you want guns in this game to be.

[nicethugbert]

Core_Commander wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Maybe they got bored of claymore.  But, when they were choosing the Claymore over the Wraith, I don't remember them saying that the Claymore was overpowered.

Yes, I am certain that people going for a record break in Platinum speedrunning have that first in foremost in their mind: whether they're bored of something or not. Three of them getting bored of the same thing and switching to the same other thing just because of taste is just as likely.

So that's why they always use Infiltrators for speed runs, especially geth.  Yet, I don't see millions of thread devoted to nerfing geth or claymore.

Core_Commander wrote...
About your second sentence... got a point there, or is it just a random thought? Piranha is more powerful than Claymore in nearly every situation, unless you go out of your way to aim it wrong.

You could say the same thing about Claymore vs. Wraith.  But, again, no calls to nerf Claymore.  If anybody calls for a Wraith buff we get the "Wraith is a caster friendly .........." propaganda.

[Cyonan]

nicethugbert wrote...

Asebstos wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
The Wraith was already largely irrelevant thanks to the Claymore and speed runners, such as yourself and your crew, and soloers have made that case on youtube many many times.

The Wraith is a lightweight caster-friendly gun. It filled a different role than the heavy/high DPS claymore. Now we have a gun that is lightweight and caster-friendly and has the highest DPS.

Even before the Piranha arrived, the Wraith was largely ignored.  That's how caster friendly it is.  Most people prefer the Talon over the Wraith.  Using the Wraith as some sort of immovable standard just implies how horrible you want guns in this game to be.

The Wraith/Talon filled very similar roles, being a lightweight shotgun for casters. I personally don't like the Talon, but it does render the Wraith a bit irrelevant. They were at least close enough if you had them at high levels that you could get away with the Wraith and not be slowing yourself down that much over the Talon, however. The N7 Piranha annihilates both of them and renders them both irrelevant.

I also fail to see how me doing speedruns has anything to do with the Wraith on caster classes. It was a good caster shotgun but it wasn't going to have the sheer power of the Claymore, nor should it when the Claymore weighs as much as an alliance cruiser.

Modifié par Cyonan, 04 août 2012 - 11:39 .

[nicethugbert]

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Cheesystick wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You know the harrier user would have killed that trooper before the piranha user could have gotten close enough to land one pellet on that trooper.

Depends on the map/player, most piranha users I see is a mobile savage brute, most harrier users I see is a dirty dirty ammo camper.

That is the point we are trying to make.  It depends.  But the nerfers want to ignore anything that interferes with their god-mode narrative.

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

You are compairing 1/2 a second or pirhana fire with two seconds of harrier fire (See the JPG from earleir.)

But, "with practice" is the argument people use to protect the claymore from nerfs.  You're saying that Piranha requires skill to use at range.  Well, skill deserves to be rewarded, right?  Then you can't nerf the Piranha anymore than you can the Claymore.

Additionally, at range, you don't hit a target with all of the pellets.  So, you can't say, "OMG SCARRY SCARRY LOOK AT ALL THE DAMAGE", then when you're doing half the damage keep saying, "OMG SCARRY SCARRY LOOK AT ALL THE DAMAGE".

Its still far superior damage to most medium ranged weapons at medium range.

8700 DPS at mid range against a small sized target is mildly insane. Think of another weapon that does that?

And its still far more predictable at range then the average claymore.

The same build would be doing 2500-4000 DPS With the Revenant (Consumableless/with consumables+gear,) which has a similar, questionable long range value.

If it beats medium range guns at medium range, while being lighter, what does this mean? 

If the Piranha could do that sort of damage, I and everyone else using it in platinum would be dropping phantoms and pyros left and right before they could touch us.  Yet, I don't see it in the platinum matches I play.

[nicethugbert]

Cyonan wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Asebstos wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
The Wraith was already largely irrelevant thanks to the Claymore and speed runners, such as yourself and your crew, and soloers have made that case on youtube many many times.

The Wraith is a lightweight caster-friendly gun. It filled a different role than the heavy/high DPS claymore. Now we have a gun that is lightweight and caster-friendly and has the highest DPS.

Even before the Piranha arrived, the Wraith was largely ignored.  That's how caster friendly it is.  Most people prefer the Talon over the Wraith.  Using the Wraith as some sort of immovable standard just implies how horrible you want guns in this game to be.

The Wraith/Talon filled very similar roles, being a lightweight shotgun for casters. I personally don't like the Talon, but it does render the Wraith a bit irrelevant. They were at least close enough if you had them at high levels that you could get away with the Wraith and not be slowing yourself down that much over the Talon, however. The N7 Piranha annihilates both of them and renders them both irrelevant.

I also fail to see how me doing speedruns has anything to do with the Wraith on caster classes. It was a good caster shotgun but it wasn't going to have the sheer power of the Claymore, nor should it when the Claymore weighs as much as an alliance cruiser.

I'm not the one who introduced the Wraith into this discussion.  Nor do I consider it or the Claymore sacrosanct.  It seems that you guys consider the Claymore the untouchable weapon, the lynch pin to the entire ME3 MP weapon system.  Everything else has to conform to the Claymore.  I don't share that sentiment.  If the Claymore is going to be so important, perhaps it should be a promotional weapon.

[OniEdge]

If the GI is the weapon breaking class, why not nerf that instead? Seems to be the best solution, rather than a nerf on a weapon people complain about.

Hell, it seems to me that people didn't whine about TC until the GI got the Krysae with it. And look what happened. The Krysae got nerfed into shooting well, nerf darts. TC got nerfed far too hard. Now the Piranha is breaking the GI? Doesn't seem that way to me.

It seems like the GI needs a nerf, not the weapon.

[Cyonan]

nicethugbert wrote...

I'm not the one who introduced the Wraith into this discussion.  Nor do I consider it or the Claymore sacrosanct.  It seems that you guys consider the Claymore the untouchable weapon, the lynch pin to the entire ME3 MP weapon system.  Everything else has to conform to the Claymore.  I don't share that sentiment.  If the Claymore is going to be so important, perhaps it should be a promotional weapon.

The Wraith is a natural comparison. Before, the Wraith was a great caster weapon that got edged out by the Talon but could be used anyway without making you a whole lot weaker. Now the N7 Piranha annihilates both the Wraith and the Talon, despite sharing a weight category with the Wraith.

I have never said that the Claymore was untouchable, nor have I ever said that everything should conform to it. I'm not the one who brought the Claymore into this.

N7 Crusader, Widow, Black Widow, and N7 Typhoon all share the weight class of the Claymore. If they are not more powerful than the lighter guns, what is the point in bringing them?

No weapon should be untouchable, but the Javelin would fill that spot if a weapon needed to, since nothing matches it for weight.

[Grunt_Platform]

nicethugbert wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
Because they do something special and/or cool. Each Ultra Rare has something flashy and special about it, as it should be.

If Ultra Rares were always the best weapons, that would just be a worse barrier to entry in the game. As it is, not having a Harrier is already a serious handicap for the higher difficulties. The fact that most common weapons are useless above Bronze is a problem.

Yeah, the hurricane puts all other smg to shame, as well as many other guns.  It's special like that.

If higher DPS guns are not rarer than lower DPS guns then how do you decide the rarity of a gun?

So glad I have the Hurricane at Rank X from all those Premium Spectre packs—oh wait.

Promotional weapons are a different beast from Ultra Rares, let's just start there.

Anyway, you have it backwards. The Ultra Rares have received a long series of buffs specifically to make them useful at low levels, and worth using over their Rare or Uncommon rivals. The URs with extremely high damage for their weight, like the Talon, got there after three separate buffs. For the most part, rarity is not a reliable guide to DPS (Mattock is only slightly behind the Revenant, and much more accurate, for example).


...I like my Talon VII, but I kind of wish my shotguns were worth something next to it 


And I should clarify on the Claymore: The Claymore is a gun that has been considered overpowered. It is beyond a doubt one of the strongest guns in the game. Whether or not it's overpowered or not isn't important. What is important is that a gun that makes the Claymore look passé is definitely on the extreme end of damage. 

Many feel the Claymore's fine. I have no strong feelings regarding it. But I do know it's on the high end of weapon power.

Modifié par EvanKester, 05 août 2012 - 01:17 .

[Maker MEDA]

I want a Hurricane X...

I still think all this Piranha nerfing is overrated. You're not always going to use it as a GI, and how risky is it for a GI to get that up close to a mass amount of enemies on Platinum or even Gold, and spend all that time letting the weapon speed itself up, take all the time in the world to unload the clips?

Even if it is powerful, you got no range, and as a power user GI, you're not going to carry another capable ranged weapon with you, except maybe a pistol with light weight material mod. So it's constantly close range with no distance. Unless you're playing on Firebase White all the time, the weapon isn't even useable or practical on Platinum on any other map.

Try it on London Platinum.  It's still a very situational gun, and not without its cons.

Modifié par Maker MEDA, 05 août 2012 - 01:57 .

[Yuanrang]

I was testing the spread a bit again today, this time on the Turian Soldier.

No Smart Choke, no Marksman, the fragments had a dreadful spread on a massive area (you could fit a Prime in there, easily)
It got a bit tighter with Marksman, but not really a lot.

You need Smart Choke on that gun, that is for sure. Even then, it is generally dreadful even at mid-range combat unless there are so many targets that you can just fire repeatedly.
Marksman does make it very precise though with the Smart Choke, but I would not call the Piranha OP just because the Turian Soldier get a massive performance boost out of the shotgun. That is like saying the Claymore is OP because of Adrenaline Rush reloading or the Widow is OP on a SI.

The Piranha is OP when you acheive perfect conditions (as in being horribly close so all fragments hit, or tightening the fragment spread), but many guns are like that already and no one cries about those. >.<

[nicethugbert]

Cyonan wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

I'm not the one who introduced the Wraith into this discussion.  Nor do I consider it or the Claymore sacrosanct.  It seems that you guys consider the Claymore the untouchable weapon, the lynch pin to the entire ME3 MP weapon system.  Everything else has to conform to the Claymore.  I don't share that sentiment.  If the Claymore is going to be so important, perhaps it should be a promotional weapon.

The Wraith is a natural comparison. Before, the Wraith was a great caster weapon that got edged out by the Talon but could be used anyway without making you a whole lot weaker. Now the N7 Piranha annihilates both the Wraith and the Talon, despite sharing a weight category with the Wraith.

I have never said that the Claymore was untouchable, nor have I ever said that everything should conform to it. I'm not the one who brought the Claymore into this.

N7 Crusader, Widow, Black Widow, and N7 Typhoon all share the weight class of the Claymore. If they are not more powerful than the lighter guns, what is the point in bringing them?

No weapon should be untouchable, but the Javelin would fill that spot if a weapon needed to, since nothing matches it for weight.

The Wraith is a great caster weapon on paper.  No one uses it, even if they don't have a talon and it's been like that since launch.  If the N7 Crusader, Widow, Black Widow, and N7 Typhoon all share the weight class of the Claymore, then why aren't they all in the same rarity and damage category?  The weapon system is borked.  Rather than fix the weapon system, people would rather keep it borked, keep the status quo, and break every new gun we get.

By the time someone gets close enough to use their Piranha, the target has already been taken down by grenades, explosions, bursts and longer range weapons.  My in game experience does not match the limited math being used to support nerfing the Piranha.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 05 août 2012 - 02:07 .

[Cyonan]

nicethugbert wrote...
The Wraith is a great caster weapon on paper.  No one uses it, even if they don't have a talon and it's been like that since launch.  If the N7 Crusader, Widow, Black Widow, and N7 Typhoon all share the weight class of the Claymore, then why aren't they all in the same rarity and damage category?  The weapon system is borked.  Rather than fix the weapon system, people would rather keep it borked, keep the status quo, and break every new gun we get.

By the time someone gets close enough to use their Piranha, the target has already been taken down by grenades, explosions, bursts and longer range weapons.  My in game experience does not match the limited math being used to support nerfing the Piranha.

The N7 Crusader, Black Widow, and Widow all aren't in the damage category of the Claymore, and how often do those get used? If the guns aren't bringing considerable damage over the lighter guns, I have absolutely no reason to use the heavier gun, unless I have something against fast cooldowns. I have no clue what weapon rarity has to do with weapon weight, so I have no idea why you've even mentioned it.

Theorycrafting very rarely ever translates into reality as the math suggests that it should have. I have pointed this out many times in the "Balance ALL the things" group.

The Wraith didn't get used that much, true. What if we did bring the Claymore in to compare it to the N7 Piranha, though? People used to use the Claymore all the time. It was the go to shotgun for weapons users. Now they're pretty much all using N7 Piranha's because it's got the Claymore beat on damage output.

Why has a 0.9 weight gold weapon out classed a 2.0 weight gold one?

Something is wrong here, and it's not the Claymore.

[Rebel_Raven]

Reading this thread, I tried out the wraith with smart choke, and shredder mod on silver since I don't trust tests on gold.

It needs a RoF boost, assuredly. You can easily get got in the time between the Wraith's two shots. It's got a lot of risk, IMO, if you miss and are a caster.

It just didn't work vs a brute, or a banshee, really.