215 réponses à ce sujet

[Maker MEDA]

The Wraith need a serious fire rate increase to be any good. The slow fire makes it an uncommon level gun with a little more damage. I sometime put it on my Slayer so to get some damage should an enemy like a Phantom get close to me. But it's one of those ultra rare that needs a major beefing.

It's alot better then before with the weight decrease still, just not quite enough.

Modifié par Maker MEDA, 05 août 2012 - 02:40 .

[Impulse and Compulse]

The thing is that the Claymore does significantly higher damage per shot, making it almost twice as good against armor.

[Maker MEDA]

The Claymore also has range, range, and range. The accuracy of the thing, it's a beast. You can aim for headshot with it. Can't do none of that with the Piranha.

I would take that 2.0 weight over 0.9 for range on some maps.

Use it with headshot amps too.  Hot damn.

Modifié par Maker MEDA, 05 août 2012 - 02:47 .

[Cyonan]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Reading this thread, I tried out the wraith with smart choke, and shredder mod on silver since I don't trust tests on gold.

It needs a RoF boost, assuredly. You can easily get got in the time between the Wraith's two shots. It's got a lot of risk, IMO, if you miss and are a caster.

It just didn't work vs a brute, or a banshee, really.

It's good at filling in the time between casts as well as taking out trash mobs, imo.

On gold, it can 1 shot a lot of the trash with a decent number of pellets hitting the dead which isn't tough to do at mid-range with the Smart Choke V on. On the heavier stuff it does alright damage, but my abilities are what's doing the bulk of it there.

Though I have the Wraith X. I remember not liking it that much till I had it levelled up a bit.

Modifié par Cyonan, 05 août 2012 - 02:52 .

[Rebel_Raven]

Cyonan wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Reading this thread, I tried out the wraith with smart choke, and shredder mod on silver since I don't trust tests on gold.

It needs a RoF boost, assuredly. You can easily get got in the time between the Wraith's two shots. It's got a lot of risk, IMO, if you miss and are a caster.

It just didn't work vs a brute, or a banshee, really.

It's good at filling in the time between casts as well as taking out trash mobs, imo.

On gold, it can 1 shot a lot of the trash with a decent number of pellets hitting the dead which isn't tough to do at mid-range with the Smart Choke V on. On the heavier stuff it does alright damage, but my abilities are what's doing the bulk of it there.

Though I have the Wraith X. I remember not liking it that much till I had it levelled up a bit.

Mine's only at lvl 3. Maybe once mine's stronger I can find use in it, but it doesn't even one shot silver enemies as it stands.

Maybe with excessive gear it'd get the job done.

I don't feel it's all that great to use between cooldowns. It expends it's DPS, and you're still waiting for a cooldown and the next shot in my experience. It's just kinda dangerous.

Until it levels up it doesn't seem like a -good- caster gun. I'd rather use the Talon II. It may not one shot, but I can fire off a lot more DPS while waiting for my cooldown to finish.

And yes, as a caster, we should rely more on our powers, but I don't know many powers that do a great deal of DPS vs bosses. Sure we can maul the peons with powers, but so can a good gun.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 05 août 2012 - 03:15 .

[Rokayt]

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Cheesystick wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You know the harrier user would have killed that trooper before the piranha user could have gotten close enough to land one pellet on that trooper.

Depends on the map/player, most piranha users I see is a mobile savage brute, most harrier users I see is a dirty dirty ammo camper.

That is the point we are trying to make.  It depends.  But the nerfers want to ignore anything that interferes with their god-mode narrative.

Except that with practice with the pirhana you can use it at long range due to the predictable spread.... Its like firing a machinegun with tracers, you can adjust your aim perfectly from the info generated from the first shot.

You are compairing 1/2 a second or pirhana fire with two seconds of harrier fire (See the JPG from earleir.)

But, "with practice" is the argument people use to protect the claymore from nerfs.  You're saying that Piranha requires skill to use at range.  Well, skill deserves to be rewarded, right?  Then you can't nerf the Piranha anymore than you can the Claymore.

Additionally, at range, you don't hit a target with all of the pellets.  So, you can't say, "OMG SCARRY SCARRY LOOK AT ALL THE DAMAGE", then when you're doing half the damage keep saying, "OMG SCARRY SCARRY LOOK AT ALL THE DAMAGE".

Its still far superior damage to most medium ranged weapons at medium range.

8700 DPS at mid range against a small sized target is mildly insane. Think of another weapon that does that?

And its still far more predictable at range then the average claymore.

The same build would be doing 2500-4000 DPS With the Revenant (Consumableless/with consumables+gear,) which has a similar, questionable long range value.

If it beats medium range guns at medium range, while being lighter, what does this mean? 

If the Piranha could do that sort of damage, I and everyone else using it in platinum would be dropping phantoms and pyros left and right before they could touch us.  Yet, I don't see it in the platinum matches I play.

I did derp.

I meant to say DBP...

However, the Pirhana would do at least 4000 Sustained DPS .
Given that there are videos of it taking out a gold atlas in 10 seconds.

[Cyonan]

Rebel_Raven wrote...
Mine's only at lvl 3. Maybe once mine's stronger I can find use in it, but it doesn't even one shot silver enemies as it stands.

Maybe with excessive gear it'd get the job done.

I don't feel it's all that great to use between cooldowns. It expends all it's DPS, and you're still waiting for a cooldown in my experience.

Until it levels up it doesn't seem like a -good- caster gun. I'd rather use the Talon II. It may not one shot, but I can fire off a lot more DPS while waiting for my cooldown to finish.

And yes, as a caster, we should rely more on our powers, but I don't know many powers that do a great deal of DPS vs bosses. Sure we can maul the peons with powers, but so can a good gun.

At X I find it does pretty solid damage, and the baseline damage is at that point where it's an equal damage increase on armour to use the High Caliber Barrel instead of the Shredder Mod, which helps on trash mobs immensely since I use Smart Choke V + High Caliber Barrel V. The biggest problem with the gun was them putting in the hardest to level up slot , since it really isn't that good until you've got it at a high level.

Even then at X the Talon probably edges it out a bit, but in my experience they're close enough that I feel like I can use my Wraith over my Talon and I'm not hurting myself all that much. Prior to the Piranha's existance, most of my casters used the Wraith X with a couple using the Hurricane IV(which is now V), if I wasn't using a random weapon just for the sake of using a random weapon.

Though now, only my Ex-Cerberus guys use it and with the Smash nerf, the Piranha might even be better for them, too.

[K_Os2]

Schneidend wrote...

People who want Piranha nerfs...must not be using the Piranha. It's a great gun, but nobody except a tank class (Kroguard, Destroyer, etc.) can just stand in front of an Atlas wailing on it with the Piranha on Gold/Platinum.

Squishier classes can do the same damn thing espcially on gold, utilising skills and dodges. It's not that hard to do.

[Asebstos]

K_Os2 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

People who want Piranha nerfs...must not be using the Piranha. It's a great gun, but nobody except a tank class (Kroguard, Destroyer, etc.) can just stand in front of an Atlas wailing on it with the Piranha on Gold/Platinum.

Squishier classes can do the same damn thing espcially on gold, utilising skills and dodges. It's not that hard to do.

Really anyone utilizing corner cover and exploiting the right-handedness of the Atlas.

[nicethugbert]

EvanKester wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

EvanKester wrote...
Because they do something special and/or cool. Each Ultra Rare has something flashy and special about it, as it should be.

If Ultra Rares were always the best weapons, that would just be a worse barrier to entry in the game. As it is, not having a Harrier is already a serious handicap for the higher difficulties. The fact that most common weapons are useless above Bronze is a problem.

Yeah, the hurricane puts all other smg to shame, as well as many other guns.  It's special like that.

If higher DPS guns are not rarer than lower DPS guns then how do you decide the rarity of a gun?

So glad I have the Hurricane at Rank X from all those Premium Spectre packs—oh wait.

Promotional weapons are a different beast from Ultra Rares, let's just start there.

Anyway, you have it backwards. The Ultra Rares have received a long series of buffs specifically to make them useful at low levels, and worth using over their Rare or Uncommon rivals. The URs with extremely high damage for their weight, like the Talon, got there after three separate buffs. For the most part, rarity is not a reliable guide to DPS (Mattock is only slightly behind the Revenant, and much more accurate, for example).


...I like my Talon VII, but I kind of wish my shotguns were worth something next to it 


And I should clarify on the Claymore: The Claymore is a gun that has been considered overpowered. It is beyond a doubt one of the strongest guns in the game. Whether or not it's overpowered or not isn't important. What is important is that a gun that makes the Claymore look passé is definitely on the extreme end of damage. 

Many feel the Claymore's fine. I have no strong feelings regarding it. But I do know it's on the high end of weapon power.

You haven't answered my question.  If higher DPS guns are not rarer than lower DPS guns then how do you decide the rarity of a gun?  You want rarer guns to be something special and/or cool but you haven't detailed what that means.  You don't seem to think that higher DPS is special.  What could a lower DPS gun do that would make it special in the sense that it's worth using and worth waiting months to acquire?

[nicethugbert]

Cyonan wrote...
The N7 Crusader, Black Widow, and Widow all aren't in the damage category of the Claymore, and how often do those get used? If the guns aren't bringing considerable damage over the lighter guns, I have absolutely no reason to use the heavier gun, unless I have something against fast cooldowns.

Agreed.

Cyonan wrote...

I have no clue what weapon rarity has to do with weapon weight, so I have no idea why you've even mentioned it.

Apparently, neither does BW.  But, they should.  Are you implying that aspects of the game mechanics should be insignificant?  I don't see the sense in a nonunified game mechanism.

Cyonan wrote...
Theorycrafting very rarely ever translates into reality as the math suggests that it should have. I have pointed this out many times in the "Balance ALL the things" group.

Because the "mathematicians" are not up to the task.  The original post of this thread is a perfect case in point.  It's a 3D game yet the math ignores that.

Claming that the Wraith is a good caster weapon, that it's purpose is to be used in between cooldowns is another example of failing to assess the situation.  To seriously make the case, one has to look at total DPS, both power and weapon combined, in a volume.

It's not something my math skills are good enough for.  But, I think a game company can't be first rate unless it uses first rate skills and tools.

Cyonan wrote...

The Wraith didn't get used that much, true. What if we did bring the Claymore in to compare it to the N7 Piranha, though? People used to use the Claymore all the time. It was the go to shotgun for weapons users. Now they're pretty much all using N7 Piranha's because it's got the Claymore beat on damage output.

Why has a 0.9 weight gold weapon out classed a 2.0 weight gold one?

Something is wrong here, and it's not the Claymore.

IIRC, you stated a few posts ago that you do not consider the claymore sacrosanct, yet here you are using it as an immovable standard again.  It was fine for peole to use the claymore all the time.  But, it is not fine for people to use the Piranha all the time.  Double standard weighted towards Claymore.

[rmccowen]

nicethugbert wrote...

Cyonan wrote...
Theorycrafting very rarely ever translates into reality as the math suggests that it should have. I have pointed this out many times in the "Balance ALL the things" group.

Because the "mathematicians" are not up to the task.  The original post of this thread is a perfect case in point.  It's a 3D game yet the math ignores that.

Hi! Speaking as an (ex-)mathematician, the fact that it's a 3D game has absolutely zero bearing on raw weapon DPS. And without either cracking the game's source code or running hundreds of trials to compare the spread of the Claymore and Piranha, it's impossible to get the kind of information that would make the game's geometry relevant to this conversation. So we're talking about the aspects of the game's internal calculations to which we have verifiable access, instead.

Claming that the Wraith is a good caster weapon, that it's purpose is to be used in between cooldowns is another example of failing to assess the situation.  To seriously make the case, one has to look at total DPS, both power and weapon combined, in a volume.

It's not something my math skills are good enough for.  But, I think a game company can't be first rate unless it uses first rate skills and tools.

And if the Piranha gets an adjustment on Tuesday, I'm sure you'll be willing to admit that it was a well-reasoned change that was based on BioWare's tools and skills to measure "total DPS... in a volume"?

IIRC, you stated a few posts ago that you do not consider the claymore sacrosanct, yet here you are using it as an immovable standard again.  It was fine for peole to use the claymore all the time.  But, it is not fine for people to use the Piranha all the time.  Double standard weighted towards Claymore.

People don't use the Claymore all the time. It's used by skilled players on a handful of classes, but it has substantial drawbacks to go with its massive damage.

The Piranha has one weakness: its accuracy. But that's easy to deal with, in the same way people have been using shotguns since launch. That's why you don't see Gold and Platinum matches anymore without at least one person carrying a Piranha. That's why it's currently the best weapon in the game for every Vanguard, the Fury, every Soldier except maybe the Krogan, any CQC-spec Infiltrator, the GE and Demolisher, and half the Sentinels. That's why, if I had mine at X, I would take it on every single class I play regularly except maybe the AJA--and that's a toss-up.

It's light enough that anyone can carry it at 150% or better recharge, and it offers the best DPS in the game by an enormous margin.

People in this thread are comparing it to the Claymore because the Claymore is a very strong weapon in the same category, and it's clearly not even in the same league as the Piranha. You could compare the Piranha to any non-UR in the game--and most of them, too--and the results would look the same or worse. I'm willing to run the numbers for any weapon you like, on any class spec; the Piranha is going to come out substantially ahead in damage, every time.

Modifié par rmccowen, 05 août 2012 - 01:21 .

[ka243]

Like all the other threads, youre assuming all pellets hit. Much easier to be accurate at range with the claymore. The claymore has a much tighter pellet spread than the piranha.

[rmccowen]

ka243 wrote...

Like all the other threads, youre assuming all pellets hit. Much easier to be accurate at range with the claymore. The claymore has a much tighter pellet spread than the piranha.

No one's assuming that. The DPS of the Piranha definitely (and obviously) attenuates with range more quickly than the Claymore, but no one's arguing that the Piranha is good because it can snipe across maps.

It's good because you can do usefully high DPS at moderate range, and you can simply obliterate things in CQC on a scale no other weapon can match.

[nicethugbert]

rmccowen wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Because the "mathematicians" are not up to the task.  The original post of this thread is a perfect case in point.  It's a 3D game yet the math ignores that.

Hi! Speaking as an (ex-)mathematician, the fact that it's a 3D game has absolutely zero bearing on raw weapon DPS. And without either cracking the game's source code or running hundreds of trials to compare the spread of the Claymore and Piranha, it's impossible to get the kind of information that would make the game's geometry relevant to this conversation. So we're talking about the aspects of the game's internal calculations to which we have verifiable access, instead.

That is absolutly lame.  "We couldn't possibly know what we're talking about but we're going to talk about it anyway.  We're going to come to conclusions and pretend we're making sense."  That's what I just got out of your statement.

rmccowen wrote...

Claming that the Wraith is a good caster weapon, that it's purpose is to be used in between cooldowns is another example of failing to assess the situation.  To seriously make the case, one has to look at total DPS, both power and weapon combined, in a volume.

It's not something my math skills are good enough for.  But, I think a game company can't be first rate unless it uses first rate skills and tools.

And if the Piranha gets an adjustment on Tuesday, I'm sure you'll be willing to admit that it was a well-reasoned change that was based on BioWare's tools and skills to measure "total DPS... in a volume"?

Why would I assume that?  They could have thrown darts for all I know.

rmccowen wrote...

IIRC, you stated a few posts ago that you do not consider the claymore sacrosanct, yet here you are using it as an immovable standard again.  It was fine for peole to use the claymore all the time.  But, it is not fine for people to use the Piranha all the time.  Double standard weighted towards Claymore.

People don't use the Claymore all the time. It's used by skilled players on a handful of classes, but it has substantial drawbacks to go with its massive damage.

The Piranha has one weakness: its accuracy. But that's easy to deal with, in the same way people have been using shotguns since launch. That's why you don't see Gold and Platinum matches anymore without at least one person carrying a Piranha.

The same thing used to happen with the Krysae and the Reeger until people got bored of them.   The Reeger was adjusted once, within a week of being introduced, and it remained popular for a while.  The Krysae stopped being popular long before it got smashed with the nerf maul.

All the rage against these weapons was all for nothing.  The basis for complaints against them, that everybody is using them, turned out ot be untrue over time without interferance from BW.  People enjoyed it for a while in mass and moved on.  It was a fad.  You guys are raging against a fad, a passing phase.

rmccowen wrote...

That's why it's currently the best weapon in the game for every Vanguard, the Fury, every Soldier except maybe the Krogan, any CQC-spec Infiltrator, the GE and Demolisher, and half the Sentinels. That's why, if I had mine at X, I would take it on every single class I play regularly except maybe the AJA--and that's a toss-up.

It's light enough that anyone can carry it at 150% or better recharge, and it offers the best DPS in the game by an enormous margin.

People in this thread are comparing it to the Claymore because the Claymore is a very strong weapon in the same category, and it's clearly not even in the same league as the Piranha. You could compare the Piranha to any non-UR in the game--and most of them, too--and the results would look the same or worse. I'm willing to run the numbers for any weapon you like, on any class spec; the Piranha is going to come out substantially ahead in damage, every time.

You're attempting to give your opinion a veneer of objectiveity it does not deserve because you do not have proper DPS calculations.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 05 août 2012 - 06:04 .

[kevchy]

Like the Reegar, we are all going to forget that we raged against the Piranha once it gets a very minor nerf. Once again, we are all just overreacting.

Modifié par kevchy, 05 août 2012 - 06:10 .