253 réponses à ce sujet

[Darc_Requiem]

I don't trust the Catalyst. I have no reason to, nor does Shepard. Unfortunately you aren't given a choice. The "choices" you are given all require to put faith in a being that has been committing genocide for millions of years. If you have the good sense to question it, you are left standing their like a mannequin while all advanced life is wiped out.

[zambot]

The Twilight God wrote...

The Star Child does not tell you how to use the Crucible. It tells you what it has done to prevent the Crucible from firing. Something that Shepard could figure out on his own or with assistance from EDI or the Crucible sceintists who are there (Kasumi is with them in orbit). The Crucible didn't fire an intended. All the Junk around the docking area is a pretty go place to start investigating.

That device, which I call the "Crucible Suppression Device" (CSD), is NOT part of the Crucible. None of that junk at eye level is part of the Crucible. It is all part of the Citadel, created premeditatedly in anticiapation of the possibility of the Crucible docking. The entire set up is part of the Reaper's plan B scenario. Look at the cutscene where the Crucible docks. You see exactly were the Crucible ends and the Citadel begins.

I can't believe how many people think that stuff is part of the Crucible when it is clearly on the Citadel and completely seperate from the Crcucble. It's like saying a pad lock that is keeping a door from opening is part of the door when the only way to oper the door is to use a bolt cutter to permanently destroy the pad lock.

Dude...you have your own thread for your speculations.  You can speculate about the CSD and that Shepard would have figured out to blow up the pipe, and whatever else you want to headcanon.  That is the beauty of ambiguity.  It lets people tell their own stories.  But I do not wish to have your stories pressed upon me.  When I change my mind, I'll come find your thread.

[Memnon]

I still want to know why the hell the Crucible designers made three control options, all of which kill the operator. I mean, generally when designing interfaces step #1 is make sure the operator is still breathing. If it just needs genetic material than put some freaking plants there ... make it an arboretum  or something 

Modifié par Stornskar, 05 août 2012 - 03:27 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

dreman9999 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Wanting to control does not mean they tried. Wanting to control just means they wanted to control. If you what to have a point you have to show that they tried to control the reapers.

Thank you for proving my point, they wanting to control lead to failure.

You sir, a very special case.
How can they fail at something they didn't even get the chance to try?

Because they became indoctrinated by experiencing with things they shouldn't had?

[Factor P]

Although my preferred ending is Destroy and I have absolutely no desire to choose Control, I mostly believe what the Reaper-Child says about Control. Based on my playthroughs of the ME series it appears that Reapers
preserve civilizations by creating synthetic-organic Reaper bodies from the collective tissue and DNA of the people with the Reaper mind constructed from an Avatar of the people. So it's not a surprise that Control can be done. What I am unsure of is whether the Reaper-Child is telling the truth about Shepard as an AI replacing him as "supreme overlord of all Reapers" (vs. Shepard merely becoming "a Reaper.")

Modifié par Factor P, 05 août 2012 - 05:57 .

[Lord Goose]

The problem is the assumption that a non-indoctrinated person can simply because the reapers said
so. There is no evidence that any one mind can control trillions of minds.

If the Catalyst is trustworthy, when he is the clear example of how Reapers can be controlled. All Shepard has to do is to replace him as control entity. If the Catalyst is not trustworthy, why would we believe that he gives Shepard key to kill him?

More likely, he is trying to trick Shepard into damaging Crucible. I would have definitely done what if I was in his position and wanted to trick Commander.

You can say my Shepard feels this or that way, but did you play that Shepard? Is it even playable really?

Well, I decided to activate Legion, but it was the only Paragon action in the entire game. However, during Rannoch my Shepard:

1. Supported quarians attack on the geth (as in "and when we destroy the geth").
2. Didn't trust Legion completely and always picked on him.
3. Had this conversation.

Raan: That's a fully evolved AI.
Legion: Yes. We do not agree with goals of the Old Machines. But we find this growth... beautiful. Indicative of life.
Shepard (Renegade option "No"): Sure, they are more complex. But saying they are alive... ?
Legion: They have evolved.
Shepard: They were upgraded.
Legion: And they will die for it.
Admiral Raan: They allied with the Reapers.
Legion: To save themselves from you.
Shepard: Whatever the case, they allied with the Reapers.
Legion: Shepard Commander, we worked with you...
Shepard (Renegade interruption): And I appreciate that. But the geth are not alive. They are machines. Machines hacked by the Reapers and they need to be shut down.

4. After I killed Reaper on Rannoch, Legion asked permission to upload the code. Where was only two options: "Upload the code" and "We let the geth die". I choose the latter, and Shepard say: "No. I can't risk the quarian fleet. Not to save the geth". When Legion made his proposition: With these upgrades our fleet colud retake Earth, we could assist with the Crucible. Please, this is not justice". And only after it became possible to ensure peace. Basically, geth only were spared because Shepard came to conclusion that two fleets are better than one.

Also, decision to activate Legion WAS OOC for my Renegade Shepard. If what didn't happened, geth should have died on Rannoch.

However, most people don't play this way. Most people are paragon and it was mean to inflluence the most people.

As far as I understand, it was meant to influence one person in the ME universe, - Shepard. And it could have been worked much better for Renegade character if Catalyst said the lines from Low-EMS Destroy about the whole Galaxy being devastated by Crucible.

Because now Destroy is natural decision for Renegade. Reapers would die at the cost of minor damage to the technology and some machines being deactivated, and where is tiny chance to survive as human for Shepard. 

But, If that were the case then the Reapers simply have no ace in the hole. Not a mistake. They are just sh*t out of luck. Your shep is either indoctrinated or your shep isn't indoctrinated.

So, you're basically saying that being organic supremacist is a better way to resist indoctrination than being guy who is genuinely believe that all forms of life should be allowed to exist? I can't even tell how much unfortunate implications it gives...

And the Reapers surely seems to be very stupid. Why wouldn't they said that Crucible will completely destroy Earth and all allied ships in proximity? Surely what would make this choice much more difficult, even for Renegade. Especially if Renegade already got rid out of the geth on Rannoch. And they could say that to Shepard, if EMS is low.

So, even if Bioware really planned the whole deal with "Reapers tricking Shepard" they didn't put up enough effort into that idea. 

Modifié par Lord Goose, 05 août 2012 - 09:23 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

The idea that a villain just gives up when it knows it is defeated is unthinkable right? Especially an AI which runs on Logic only.

[saracen16]

Because the separatists and Cerberus (including TIM) were indoctrinated. Shepard wasn't. Also, Shepard had the means to control the Reapers: the Crucible. Cerberus was only trying by tapping into control signals but failed.

[XqctaX]

lol the leader of the enemy says his sulution doesnt work,
then asks me to kill him?

by doing something that has destroyed the mind of anyone thats ever tried before
and i should just belive he is honest about it.


stupid people write stupid things and other stupid people like to read said stupid things.

[saracen16]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

The idea that a villain just gives up when it knows it is defeated is unthinkable right? Especially an AI which runs on Logic only.

This is a fact that many people who argue that the Catalyst shouldn't be trusted overlook on purpose: the Catalyst is a machine, and as such is not privy to organic traits such as "good vs. evil" let alone altruism.

[Reever]

saracen16 wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

The idea that a villain just gives up when it knows it is defeated is unthinkable right? Especially an AI which runs on Logic only.

This is a fact that many people who argue that the Catalyst shouldn't be trusted overlook on purpose: the Catalyst is a machine, and as such is not privy to organic traits such as "good vs. evil" let alone altruism.

And many more people forget this is a story, that goes as intended by it writers. Now, if it´s a good or a bad one is besides the point, but why the hell would the writers lie to us (word of God ingame) without showing us the repercussions. I´d find that worse than the endings we´ve got. That´s why I´m opposed to IT.

[Memnon]

saracen16 wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

The idea that a villain just gives up when it knows it is defeated is unthinkable right? Especially an AI which runs on Logic only.

This is a fact that many people who argue that the Catalyst shouldn't be trusted overlook on purpose: the Catalyst is a machine, and as such is not privy to organic traits such as "good vs. evil" let alone altruism.

EDI deceived Cerberus in the events leading up to ME3 - good vs. evil is irrelevant, it was stated in-game by one of your own crew that AI can lie and deceive

[The Twilight God]

OdanUrr wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Why do you believe the catalyst?

Well, if I don't believe him about Control, why should I believe him about Destroy? Shooting at a tube doesn't seem like the way to activate a weapon. Neither's jumping into a beam of light for that matter.

If a pad lock is on a door, cutting the lock off will allow it to open. That doesn't make the pad lock a part of the door.

The "tubes" are not part of the Crucible. They are a reaper device designed to keep it from arming. The Crucible automatically arms once it is destroyed as it should have done if the Reapers didn;t prepare for it.

Furthermore, if you shoot some tubes and nothing happens you are alive to figure out something else. You don't suicide yourself on the word of the Reapers.

Stornskar wrote...

I still want to know why the hell the Crucible designers made three control options, all of which kill the operator. I mean, generally when designing interfaces step #1 is make sure the operator is still breathing. If it just needs genetic material than put some freaking plants there ... make it an arboretum or something

They didn't. The Crucible is intented to arm automatically.

The reapers built all those contraptions around the docking area as a plan b if the Crucible ever made it there. They are built into the Citadel, not the Crucible. The destroy tubes are just a device that keeps the Crucible from arming so that it's other options can be picked. Otherwise it would have simply fired without giving the Star Kid any chance to convince Shepard not to kill the Reapers.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 août 2012 - 02:50 .

[The Twilight God]

zambot wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

The Star Child does not tell you how to use the Crucible. It tells you what it has done to prevent the Crucible from firing. Something that Shepard could figure out on his own or with assistance from EDI or the Crucible sceintists who are there (Kasumi is with them in orbit). The Crucible didn't fire an intended. All the Junk around the docking area is a pretty go place to start investigating.

That device, which I call the "Crucible Suppression Device" (CSD), is NOT part of the Crucible. None of that junk at eye level is part of the Crucible. It is all part of the Citadel, created premeditatedly in anticiapation of the possibility of the Crucible docking. The entire set up is part of the Reaper's plan B scenario. Look at the cutscene where the Crucible docks. You see exactly were the Crucible ends and the Citadel begins.

I can't believe how many people think that stuff is part of the Crucible when it is clearly on the Citadel and completely seperate from the Crcucble. It's like saying a pad lock that is keeping a door from opening is part of the door when the only way to oper the door is to use a bolt cutter to permanently destroy the pad lock.

Dude...you have your own thread for your speculations.  You can speculate about the CSD and that Shepard would have figured out to blow up the pipe, and whatever else you want to headcanon.  That is the beauty of ambiguity.  It lets people tell their own stories.  But I do not wish to have your stories pressed upon me.  When I change my mind, I'll come find your thread.

Don't read anything I post if you are butthurt. Simple.

[OdanUrr]

The Twilight God wrote...

The "tubes" are not part of the Crucible. They are a reaper device designed to keep it from arming. The Crucible automatically arms once it is destroyed as it should have done if the Reapers didn;t prepare for it.

Where/when does it say this?

[The Twilight God]

OdanUrr wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

The "tubes" are not part of the Crucible. They are a reaper device designed to keep it from arming. The Crucible automatically arms once it is destroyed as it should have done if the Reapers didn;t prepare for it.

Where/when does it say this?

It doesn't have to be said. It is plainly shown. Did you bother to look around? Use your eyes.

Look at the docking tip (up it to 720p and full screen it)

Notice that the Crucible tip is above you.

The Presidium is around you.
The Crucible docking clamps are claimped to the Presidium. Check out the flycam.

Everything at eye level is built into the Citadel. It amazes me that people don't notice this right off the bat.

As far as the tube keeping the Crucible from arming, how else do you explain a contraption that is not part of the Crucible that, when destroyed, allows the Crucible to fire. That "tube" is not some on/off swtich or interface console. The only logical conclusion this that the device is preventing the Crucible from arming seeing the the Synthesis beam shuts down after it is destroyed and the Crucible automatically arms. If you chose Synthesis or Control the beam stays activate. There is no direct interface with the Crucible to initiate Destroy because Destroy is the only thing the Crucible itself can perfrom. Control and Synthesis are located on the Citadel and use the Crucible as a battery. My guess would that it redirects the Crucible energy to power Control and Synthesis.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 août 2012 - 08:32 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

The Twilight God wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

The "tubes" are not part of the Crucible. They are a reaper device designed to keep it from arming. The Crucible automatically arms once it is destroyed as it should have done if the Reapers didn;t prepare for it.

Where/when does it say this?

It doesn't have to be said. It is plainly shown. Did you bother to look around? Use your eyes.

Look at the docking tip (up it to 720p and full screen it)

Notice that the Crucible tip is above you.

The Presidium is around you.
The Crucible docking clamps are claimped to the Presidium. Check out the flycam.

Everything at eye level is built into the Citadel. It amazes me that people don't notice this right off the bat.

He is asking when it is ever said that it is a reaper device built to keep the Cruicble from firing.

Of course, this is never said and it's completely your head canon.

[OdanUrr]

The Twilight God wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

The "tubes" are not part of the Crucible. They are a reaper device designed to keep it from arming. The Crucible automatically arms once it is destroyed as it should have done if the Reapers didn;t prepare for it.

Where/when does it say this?

It doesn't have to be said. It is plainly shown. Did you bother to look around? Use your eyes.

Look at the docking tip (up it to 720p and full screen it)

Notice that the Crucible tip is above you.

The Presidium is around you.
The Crucible docking clamps are claimped to the Presidium. Check out the flycam.

Everything at eye level is built into the Citadel. It amazes me that people don't notice this right off the bat.

You misunderstand, which is understandable considering your rather rude reply. What I meant was where does it say (or is shown) that it's a Reaper device designed to prevent the Crucible from firing?

[The Twilight God]

OdanUrr wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

The "tubes" are not part of the Crucible. They are a reaper device designed to keep it from arming. The Crucible automatically arms once it is destroyed as it should have done if the Reapers didn;t prepare for it.

Where/when does it say this?

It doesn't have to be said. It is plainly shown. Did you bother to look around? Use your eyes.

Look at the docking tip (up it to 720p and full screen it)

Notice that the Crucible tip is above you.

The Presidium is around you.
The Crucible docking clamps are claimped to the Presidium. Check out the flycam.

Everything at eye level is built into the Citadel. It amazes me that people don't notice this right off the bat.

You misunderstand, which is understandable considering your rather rude reply. What I meant was where does it say (or is shown) that it's a Reaper device designed to prevent the Crucible from firing?

What made my reply rude?

I editted my post, but you replied before I finished it.

http://social.biowar...540/10#13526946

[Lord Goose]

The Crucible is intented to arm automatically.

Assumption.
We have no evidence what Crucible is supposed to do. Actually anyone who is gifted enough to work on the Crucible and who can speak with Shepard about it says that they have no real idea that Crucible is supposed to do.

[The Twilight God]

Lord Goose wrote...

The Crucible is intented to arm automatically.

Assumption.

As opposed to what?

What other explaination is there given what we see?

Lord Goose wrote...

We have no evidence what Crucible is supposed to do.

I just stated the evidence. You may not take it as proof, but it is evidence.

Lord Goose wrote...

Actually anyone who is gifted enough to work on the Crucible and who can speak with Shepard about it says that they have no real idea that Crucible is supposed to do.

The scientists know it is supposed to destroy the Reapers. Hackett says so himself. What they don't know is how it will destroy the Reapers and just the Reapers. They fear it may wipe everyone out like low EMS Destroy.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 août 2012 - 09:57 .

[KingZayd]

I don't.

[Yalision]

It didn't come to a matter of belief. It came down to this.. "#$@%! Well I have no way of knowing that anything here does what this little ****** actually says it will, so I'll do the only thing I can to preserve the ones I love and everyone who fought beside me to make this possibility real."

So I chose Control, hoping that it, like any of the other options given to me with no real proof of function, came through. And it did. Everyone I cared for lived and I can do whatever the hell I like with the Reaper fleet now.

And to avoid the "is it Shepard?" crap, yes I do believe it is Shepard, but no I also don't believe it is Shepard.

Captain Kirk is actually stepping into a suicide machine every time he uses a teleporter. He is ripped apart and reassembled at another location, but he is not the same Kirk. Yet he is the same Kirk. See the dilemma? Ghost in the shell theory works in the same way, but we don't fully understand the idea yet. Either way, the person on the other side of such a transfer is still technically the same person, but, no, they aren't the original deal.

I'm confident in my Shepard, replica or original, to do whatever it takes to maintain galactic stability and not play big brother too terribly. That's the beauty of an open ending with no canon - I get to decide the future of my Shepard, and not anyone else on these forums. =)

[The Twilight God]

Yalision wrote...

It didn't come to a matter of belief. It came down to this.. "#$@%! Well I have no way of knowing that anything here does what this little ****** actually says it will, so I'll do the only thing I can to preserve the ones I love and everyone who fought beside me to make this possibility real."

So I chose Control, hoping that it, like any of the other options given to me with no real proof of function, came through. And it did. Everyone I cared for lived and I can do whatever the hell I like with the Reaper fleet now.

And to avoid the "is it Shepard?" crap, yes I do believe it is Shepard, but no I also don't believe it is Shepard.

Captain Kirk is actually stepping into a suicide machine every time he uses a teleporter. He is ripped apart and reassembled at another location, but he is not the same Kirk. Yet he is the same Kirk. See the dilemma? Ghost in the shell theory works in the same way, but we don't fully understand the idea yet. Either way, the person on the other side of such a transfer is still technically the same person, but, no, they aren't the original deal.

I'm confident in my Shepard, replica or original, to do whatever it takes to maintain galactic stability and not play big brother too terribly. That's the beauty of an open ending with no canon - I get to decide the future of my Shepard, and not anyone else on these forums. =)

Yeah, he can come back as a cylon avatar or some random women can become immaculately impregnated and have a baby in 1 week, which then grows into adulthood in another week with all Shepard's memories intact. Anything is possible in ME endings.

[Factor P]

The Twilight God wrote...

Look at the docking tip (up it to 720p and full screen it)

Notice that the Crucible tip is above you.

The Presidium is around you.
The Crucible docking clamps are claimped to the Presidium. Check out the flycam.

Thank you for posting this. I can clearly see where the connection between the Crucible and the Citadel occurs, whereas it had been unclear to me before. Clarifies a lot seeing how the Citadel had this structure with the Control/Synthesis/Destroy panels already pre-constructed!

Seems like the Reapers made certain they were prepared in case the Crucible was ever completed and docked to the Citadel in any cycle. So it seems your theory of a "CSD" is very likely correct. Now I'm thinking the Catalyst really is Shepard... the docking of the Crucible onto the Citadel required someone to destroy the Reaper constructed "CSD" before it would be able to fire as originally constructed (so shooting the device to destroy the CSD makes sense since the device is preventing activation of the Crucible). It seems likely that previous cycles knew about this "CSD" as you called it since a "Catalyst" was mentioned in the Crucible's plans. Very interesting!

Modifié par Factor P, 06 août 2012 - 03:04 .