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[Baa Baa]

Vendetta talks about how attempts to Control the Reapers have failed, Javik talks about how attempts at Synthesis have gone horribly wrong, Protheans sure do love to reinforce Destroyers I suppose.
God I wish I could send the Reapers to the sun in Control... then I'd pick it every time.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

The Twilight God wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Not trying to start a war, just trying to get some insight.
For players who choose Control.

Why do you believe the catalyst? The Prothean VI, Vendetta, tells you that there was a splinter Prothean group who split apart and wanted to control the Reapers, but they failed. He also tells you countless cycles have tried the same, but they failed. TIM tried it and failed. So why do you believe that Shepard can do it, he's not god or a divine person, he's the same as everyone else who failed when trying to control the Reapers, a person. So why do you think Shepard can do it when countless of cycles before him have failed?

Because they are indoctrinated. And it's a video game with no actual real life consequences for the player.

No reason is given to believe any of its new options. In fact, everything prior points to both being a fools choice. This is what Biowares needs to fix if they want the endings to be taken literally. When alot of people say the ending sucks they aren't talking about RGB (that's lame, but whatever). The problem is the endings aren't written in a way that makes all endings appear reasonable to anyone who wasn't being indoctrinated. 

Who said every cycle before Shepard who tried control were indoctrinated when the idea first came to mind? Maybe they were perfectly fine, until they tried it, which lead to them failing.

[Isichar]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Isichar wrote...

I get where you are coming from here but let me answer your question with another question....

Why is control any less believable then been told you can fuse all life and machines together in the galaxy? To be completely honest you have no way of knowing any choice made with the crucible will actually result in what you believe it will other then the Catalysts word.

I agree all choices seem like a gamble.

But especially Control, the one where you have seen first hand failed multiple times....

However no attempt was actually a viable means of control. We have no way of knowing whether or not the crucible will actually control the reapers, however we can assume that control has never been attempted by firing the crucible. How other cycles tried to control the reapers I cant say, but I dont think it was done with the crucible, and even had the crucible existed, the indoctrinated would not have been able to use it.

I honestly believe the crucible is the first time its even been possible.

Then again I essentially agree with you, my Shepard would not believe it was possible to control the reapers based on his experiences...

Honestly, that way it just makes it look even more ridiculous.

Catalyst " I'm your enemy, that has been trying to kill you for multiple years, but I'm going to let you control me by grabbing those two handles and killing yourself"

A lot of people who failed were attempting things that had never been done before, it doesn't make any more logical.

Again, I dont see how any option the catalyst offers is anymore viable then control by this logic.

Shepard has about as much reason to believe its possible to kill the reapers as he does to believe he can control them. Everyone who tried to control them failed right? So did everyone who tried to stop/kill the reapers. So by that logic should we stop trying to kill them because logically we should not be able to? Theres actually interesting dialogue with EDI in which she questions the same thing.

[MegaSovereign]

The Angry One wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Because my Paragon Shepard is desperate to save everyone including his synthetic allies?

Even if it bites him in the ass I'm simply role-playing what my Paragon would do.

Here lies the flaw in your plan. If anything goes wrong it will screw the entire galaxy over.
What's worse is that Shepard says exactly this to TIM a little earlier.

Yea but from non-metagaming standpoint shooting a power conduit to activate the Crucible seems just as crazy. What if this was just a trick to get me to destroy the Crucible?

And TIM was indoctrinated. That's why he couldn't control the Reapers. It was obvious during the confrontation that he was stalling. Shepard even says to him "they won't let you do it."

[The Angry One]

arial wrote...
that entire mission Rachni were attacking you, Rachni are traditionally commanded by the Queen.

And we find out talking to various characters and logs, etc. in that section that the Rachni Queen is in fact not in control. Her claims are backed up by evidence.

Its like that Crew member said after you recruit Javik in ME3 "regulations say when encountering a new species, assume hostility"

Until proved otherwise. The Rachni Queen was not hostile, had no involvement in the war, had no control over the drones in the facility and was at your mercy.
The Catalyst is hostile, it is directing the Reapers to exterminate us even as it tries to sweet talk Shepard, it presents ultimatums and is willing to back those up with the threat of (continued) genocide.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Isichar wrote...

Again, I dont see how any option the catalyst offers is anymore viable then control by this logic.

Shepard has about as much reason to believe its possible to kill the reapers as he does to believe he can control them. Everyone who tried to control them failed right? So did everyone who tried to stop/kill the reapers. So by that logic should we stop trying to kill them because logically we should not be able to? Theres actually interesting dialogue with EDI in which she questions the same thing.

Because you have seen Control failed countless of times, Destroy and Synthesis are almost the same gamble as control but not quite because is something new that  you can at least think it might work. Control has failed for many cycles, therefore it already seems stupid to try it again.

[Andrew_S]

Because its a game, and I'm serious when I say that. That's the disconnect for me. With the EC, I can view the endings and enjoy them all, as things are shown to be going great for at least 100's of years, but the step to get to that point is pure fail. If control and synthesis was setup fully, or if they at least planted the seed (beyond TIM's failjob crazy crap) I can easily prefer the results. But, yeah. A literal leap of faith, blind idealism/ambition, do nothing and watch the world burn, or start shooting crap and trying to blow he reapers to hell.

I roleplay my characters and pick endings based on what they would want, but I have to metagame the final decision. Works for me, I can enjoy the game now, but still poorly done.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Isichar wrote...

I get where you are coming from here but let me answer your question with another question....

Why is control any less believable then been told you can fuse all life and machines together in the galaxy? To be completely honest you have no way of knowing any choice made with the crucible will actually result in what you believe it will other then the Catalysts word.

I agree all choices seem like a gamble.

But especially Control, the one where you have seen first hand failed multiple times....

However no attempt was actually a viable means of control. We have no way of knowing whether or not the crucible will actually control the reapers, however we can assume that control has never been attempted by firing the crucible. How other cycles tried to control the reapers I cant say, but I dont think it was done with the crucible, and even had the crucible existed, the indoctrinated would not have been able to use it.

I honestly believe the crucible is the first time its even been possible.

Then again I essentially agree with you, my Shepard would not believe it was possible to control the reapers based on his experiences...

Honestly, that way it just makes it look even more ridiculous.

Catalyst " I'm your enemy, that has been trying to kill you for multiple years, but I'm going to let you control me by grabbing those two handles and killing yourself"

A lot of people who failed were attempting things that had never been done before, it doesn't make any more logical.

Don't base a point off of the method used to achieve a particular ending. They're all ridiculous.

Destroy: "Hey, you want to wipe out the Reapers? Go shoot this pipe that's attached to what appears to be an important piece of machinery. Oh, and when you shoot it, there's a big explosion. Totally not trying to trick you into sabotaging the Crucible, bro."

Synthesis: "Hey, you want to solve the problem I was designed for, thus miraculously ending all conflict between yourself and the Reapers? Just jump into this beam of light. It'll kill you, but you'll have no way of knowing if it actually worked. Just take me on faith, bro."

The methods are meant to be more symbolic than they are practical. In destroy, you shoot stuff. In control, you grab stuff. In synthesis, you take a leap of faith.

[arial]

The Angry One wrote...

arial wrote...
that entire mission Rachni were attacking you, Rachni are traditionally commanded by the Queen.

And we find out talking to various characters and logs, etc. in that section that the Rachni Queen is in fact not in control. Her claims are backed up by evidence.

Its like that Crew member said after you recruit Javik in ME3 "regulations say when encountering a new species, assume hostility"

Until proved otherwise. The Rachni Queen was not hostile, had no involvement in the war, had no control over the drones in the facility and was at your mercy.
The Catalyst is hostile, it is directing the Reapers to exterminate us even as it tries to sweet talk Shepard, it presents ultimatums and is willing to back those up with the threat of (continued) genocide.

the only guy who says that is in the hotlabs, and depending on how you do that mission you can meet the Rachni Queen before him. so that arguement is pointless.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Don't base a point off of the method used to achieve a particular ending. They're all ridiculous.

Destroy: "Hey, you want to wipe out the Reapers? Go shoot this pipe that's attached to what appears to be an important piece of machinery. Oh, and when you shoot it, there's a big explosion. Totally not trying to trick you into sabotaging the Crucible, bro."

Synthesis: "Hey, you want to solve the problem I was designed for, thus miraculously ending all conflict between yourself and the Reapers? Just jump into this beam of light. It'll kill you, but you'll have no way of knowing if it actually worked. Just take me on faith, bro."

The methods are meant to be more symbolic than they are practical. In destroy, you shoot stuff. In control, you grab stuff. In synthesis, you take a leap of faith.

I will say it again, you have seen Control fail every time, therefore make in it more illogical to choose that again, when you can at least put your faith on something that hasn't been tried and proven to fail yet.

[AresKeith]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Because my Paragon Shepard is desperate to save everyone including his synthetic allies?

Even if it bites him in the ass I'm simply role-playing what my Paragon would do.

Here lies the flaw in your plan. If anything goes wrong it will screw the entire galaxy over.
What's worse is that Shepard says exactly this to TIM a little earlier.

Yea but from non-metagaming standpoint shooting a power conduit to activate the Crucible seems just as crazy. What if this was just a trick to get me to destroy the Crucible?

And TIM was indoctrinated. That's why he couldn't control the Reapers. It was obvious during the confrontation that he was stalling. Shepard even says to him "they won't let you do it."

thats why I'm guessing that shooting the Tube overloads the Crucible and for some reason kills all synthetics in Destroy, and Synthesis just feels like Fantasy instead of Sci-fi

[SubAstris]

All the others you said were indoctrinated, Shepard isn't, therefore he can control the Reapers

[Isichar]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Again, I dont see how any option the catalyst offers is anymore viable then control by this logic.

Shepard has about as much reason to believe its possible to kill the reapers as he does to believe he can control them. Everyone who tried to control them failed right? So did everyone who tried to stop/kill the reapers. So by that logic should we stop trying to kill them because logically we should not be able to? Theres actually interesting dialogue with EDI in which she questions the same thing.

Because you have seen Control failed countless of times, Destroy and Synthesis are almost the same gamble as control but not quite because is something new that  you can at least think it might work. Control has failed for many cycles, therefore it already seems stupid to try it again.

Yes and killing the reapers has failed even more times, so it is stupid to try that too, right?

The point is that you have no more reason to believe its possible to destroy the reapers then you do to believe its possible to control them.

Modifié par Isichar, 04 août 2012 - 04:54 .

[masster blaster]

SubAstris wrote...

All the others you said were indoctrinated, Shepard isn't, therefore he can control the Reapers

Really? I thought it was posible to indoctrinate Shepard, and I know so do you know that Shepard can remember.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
]I will say it again, you have seen Control fail every time, therefore make in it more illogical to choose that again, when you can at least put your faith on something that hasn't been tried and proven to fail yet.

So has any attempt to Destroy the Reapers, and any attempt at Synthesis. Hence the cycle. The reason the Catalyst even offers parley is because the Crucible has "altered the variables," making each of those attainable.

[AresKeith]

SubAstris wrote...

All the others you said were indoctrinated, Shepard isn't, therefore he can control the Reapers

so its just that easy? huh

[Estelindis]

The Angry One wrote...

If anything goes wrong it will screw the entire galaxy over.
What's worse is that Shepard says exactly this to TIM a little earlier.

Yes.  If I recall correctly, it's even auto-dialogue, so Shepard *always* says it to TIM...  *shakes head despairingly*

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Isichar wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Again, I dont see how any option the catalyst offers is anymore viable then control by this logic.

Shepard has about as much reason to believe its possible to kill the reapers as he does to believe he can control them. Everyone who tried to control them failed right? So did everyone who tried to stop/kill the reapers. So by that logic should we stop trying to kill them because logically we should not be able to? Theres actually interesting dialogue with EDI in which she questions the same thing.

Because you have seen Control failed countless of times, Destroy and Synthesis are almost the same gamble as control but not quite because is something new that  you can at least think it might work. Control has failed for many cycles, therefore it already seems stupid to try it again.

Yes and killing the reapers has failed even more times, so it is stupid to try that too, right?

The point is that you have no more reason to believe its possible to destroy the reapers then you do to believe its possible to control them.

Destroying hasn't been seen to work, but neither has there been a super-weapon.

And before you says "Control hasn't work, but neither has there been a super-weapon" the difference that people have tried many ways to Control the Reapers and failed, the only way cycles have fought the Reapers was by conventional warfare, no cycle has had the crucible deployed but Shepard's cycle.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
]I will say it again, you have seen Control fail every time, therefore make in it more illogical to choose that again, when you can at least put your faith on something that hasn't been tried and proven to fail yet.

So has any attempt to Destroy the Reapers, and any attempt at Synthesis. Hence the cycle. The reason the Catalyst even offers parley is because the Crucible has "altered the variables," making each of those attainable.

I'm going to copy and paste my other reply to someone else.

"Destroying hasn't been seen to work, but neither has there been a super-weapon.

And before you says "Control hasn't work, but neither has there been a super-weapon" the difference that people have tried many ways to Control the Reapers and failed, the only way cycles have fought the Reapers was by conventional warfare, no cycle has had the crucible deployed but Shepard's cycle."

[Khajiit Jzargo]

SubAstris wrote...

All the others you said were indoctrinated, Shepard isn't, therefore he can control the Reapers

I'm sure many people who tried to control the Reapers before, weren't indoctrinated before they tried.

[Ageless Face]

Because no one has ever managed to use the Crucible before, which is highly advanced technology which was passed down many cycles ago. I also don't believe the catalyst is lying, and I believe the chances that control can be done is as high as the chances of destroying all the synthetics and Reapers by shooting one tube, or merging synthetics and organics by jumping into a beam.

And also with metagaming, I know afterwards that Shepard succeeded, so...

Modifié par HagarIshay, 04 août 2012 - 05:15 .

[SubAstris]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

All the others you said were indoctrinated, Shepard isn't, therefore he can control the Reapers

I'm sure many people who tried to control the Reapers before, weren't indoctrinated before they tried.

Like TIM? The indoctrinated Prothean splinter group?

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

So has any attempt to Destroy the Reapers, and any attempt at Synthesis. Hence the cycle. The reason the Catalyst even offers parley is because the Crucible has "altered the variables," making each of those attainable.

I'm going to copy and paste my other reply to someone else.

"Destroying hasn't been seen to work, but neither has there been a super-weapon.

And before you says "Control hasn't work, but neither has there been a super-weapon" the difference that people have tried many ways to Control the Reapers and failed, the only way cycles have fought the Reapers was by conventional warfare, no cycle has had the crucible deployed but Shepard's cycle."

You're missing the point. The Crucible makes each option a possibility. Before, they weren't. We could never hope to destroy the Reapers without the Crucible, just as we could never hope to control them. But now, with the Crucible, we can.

[SubAstris]

masster blaster wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

All the others you said were indoctrinated, Shepard isn't, therefore he can control the Reapers

Really? I thought it was posible to indoctrinate Shepard, and I know so do you know that Shepard can remember.

Key words are highlighted

[Khajiit Jzargo]

SubAstris wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

All the others you said were indoctrinated, Shepard isn't, therefore he can control the Reapers

I'm sure many people who tried to control the Reapers before, weren't indoctrinated before they tried.

Like TIM? The indoctrinated Prothean splinter group?

What about the countless cycles who have tried before? Who's to say that the Prothean splinter group were not indoctrinated when they began to try control?