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[The Twilight God]

RiouHotaru wrote...

What TIM proved was that it was possible to take control AWAY from the Reapers, something which up until that point wasn't supposed to be possible or even considered an option.

However, TIM's obsession with human domination lead to him implanting himself with Reaper Tech and his indoctrination, which disqualifies him. The Catalyst gives the exact reason why TIM can't use the Crucible:

"He could not control us, because we already controlled him."

The Star Child's say so does nto make it fact. Perhaps no single organic mind can take control of trillions of repaer minds. Perhaps it wants Sheparad to foolishly try. 

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only real reason to trust the catalyst is because what the crucible does is based in your ems. IT THE CATALYST WAS IN CONTROL, IT WOULD JUST FORCE SYNTHESIS.

It can't force you to jump in that beam. It can't keep Shepard from figuring out that it little device is keeping the Crucible from arming and it can't make Shepard hold on to those electrical leads. It never had any power other than indoctrination. It's not even the Catalyst. It lies to you from beginning to end.

Can't force me? My Shep was near broken form before the conduit. It could of orders two muraders to over power shep before going up to the citadel, and dragged him into the beam.  Understand that you were allowed up the citadel, like you are now allown the 3 choices.

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

What TIM proved was that it was possible to take control AWAY from the Reapers, something which up until that point wasn't supposed to be possible or even considered an option.

However, TIM's obsession with human domination lead to him implanting himself with Reaper Tech and his indoctrination, which disqualifies him. The Catalyst gives the exact reason why TIM can't use the Crucible:

"He could not control us, because we already controlled him."

The Star Child's say so does nto make it fact. Perhaps no single organic mind can take control of trillions of repaer minds. Perhaps it wants Sheparad to foolishly try. 

It you talked to TIM at the end of the game, it's clear as day he is controled by the reapers.

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

The fact is, there is no good reason to trust the Star Child. Period.

There is not a single person here or anywhere in the universe that can counter that statement at this time.

I agree, what where is no reason to believe him at all. But beggars cannot be choosers and my Shepard really wanted to do something to save everyone.

So you think the Reapers gave you two sunshine and butterflies endings and made only one a tough choice requiring sacrifice? This doesn't strike you as odd?

You missing the fact that they are shackled AI's who have no choice but to do what they are doing because of their programing...The have a reason to help you...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNyvUblf28&feature=player_detailpage#t=556s

Take some time to understand there goals...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNyvUblf28&feature=player_detailpage#t=136s

I don't know any of this. I know the image of a little boy makes several claims. I also know that it lies.. alot

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

A 10 minute chat with the reapers now that I have them by the balls doesn't negate 120 hours that indicate otherwise.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419372

[AresKeith]

plus I still can't get over that smirk that the Starbrat seems to make in the Control ending

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

What TIM proved was that it was possible to take control AWAY from the Reapers, something which up until that point wasn't supposed to be possible or even considered an option.

However, TIM's obsession with human domination lead to him implanting himself with Reaper Tech and his indoctrination, which disqualifies him. The Catalyst gives the exact reason why TIM can't use the Crucible:

"He could not control us, because we already controlled him."

Thank you. Some one understands.

and having a Shepard AI acting like the new Catalyst who can start killing again as soon as something goes down is a good thing?

The AI shepard is based on an organic that understand and has the freedom to develop how it see fit. Ai are not natuarlly hostil. This only happens if they are forced to be tools.

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only real reason to trust the catalyst is because what the crucible does is based in your ems. IT THE CATALYST WAS IN CONTROL, IT WOULD JUST FORCE SYNTHESIS.

It can't force you to jump in that beam. It can't keep Shepard from figuring out that it little device is keeping the Crucible from arming and it can't make Shepard hold on to those electrical leads. It never had any power other than indoctrination. It's not even the Catalyst. It lies to you from beginning to end.

Can't force me? My Shep was near broken form before the conduit. It could of orders two muraders to over power shep before going up to the citadel, and dragged him into the beam.  Understand that you were allowed up the citadel, like you are now allown the 3 choices.

What marauders? Can it now materialize forces out of thin air.

It didn't allow anything. TIM, under indoctrination, will kill Shepard if he doesn't kill him first.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

What TIM proved was that it was possible to take control AWAY from the Reapers, something which up until that point wasn't supposed to be possible or even considered an option.

However, TIM's obsession with human domination lead to him implanting himself with Reaper Tech and his indoctrination, which disqualifies him. The Catalyst gives the exact reason why TIM can't use the Crucible:

"He could not control us, because we already controlled him."

Thank you. Some one understands.

and having a Shepard AI acting like the new Catalyst who can start killing again as soon as something goes down is a good thing?

The AI shepard is based on an organic that understand and has the freedom to develop how it see fit. Ai are not natuarlly hostil. This only happens if they are forced to be tools.

uh huh, and the fact that it sounds just like the Catalyst

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

The fact is, there is no good reason to trust the Star Child. Period.

There is not a single person here or anywhere in the universe that can counter that statement at this time.

I agree, what where is no reason to believe him at all. But beggars cannot be choosers and my Shepard really wanted to do something to save everyone.

So you think the Reapers gave you two sunshine and butterflies endings and made only one a tough choice requiring sacrifice? This doesn't strike you as odd?

You missing the fact that they are shackled AI's who have no choice but to do what they are doing because of their programing...The have a reason to help you...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNyvUblf28&feature=player_detailpage#t=556s

Take some time to understand there goals...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNyvUblf28&feature=player_detailpage#t=136s

I don't know any of this. I know the image of a little boy makes several claims. I also know that it lies.. alot

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

A 10 minute chat with the reapers now that I have them by the balls doesn't negate 120 hours that indicate otherwise.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419372

The funny thing is everthing you have in those links arn't lies at all. I'll give you an example.
1. He says he is the catalyst and the citadel is part of him. This is the same case with EDI and her new body. Her new body is her and part of her. An synthetic ban have as many parts , bodies and personas as they want.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

What TIM proved was that it was possible to take control AWAY from the Reapers, something which up until that point wasn't supposed to be possible or even considered an option.

However, TIM's obsession with human domination lead to him implanting himself with Reaper Tech and his indoctrination, which disqualifies him. The Catalyst gives the exact reason why TIM can't use the Crucible:

"He could not control us, because we already controlled him."

Thank you. Some one understands.

and having a Shepard AI acting like the new Catalyst who can start killing again as soon as something goes down is a good thing?

The AI shepard is based on an organic that understand and has the freedom to develop how it see fit. Ai are not natuarlly hostil. This only happens if they are forced to be tools.

uh huh, and the fact that it sounds just like the Catalyst

Where does he sound like the catalyst and how does that make himjust like the catalyst?

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only real reason to trust the catalyst is because what the crucible does is based in your ems. IT THE CATALYST WAS IN CONTROL, IT WOULD JUST FORCE SYNTHESIS.

It can't force you to jump in that beam. It can't keep Shepard from figuring out that it little device is keeping the Crucible from arming and it can't make Shepard hold on to those electrical leads. It never had any power other than indoctrination. It's not even the Catalyst. It lies to you from beginning to end.

Can't force me? My Shep was near broken form before the conduit. It could of orders two muraders to over power shep before going up to the citadel, and dragged him into the beam.  Understand that you were allowed up the citadel, like you are now allown the 3 choices.

What marauders? Can it now materialize forces out of thin air.

It didn't allow anything. TIM, under indoctrination, will kill Shepard if he doesn't kill him first.

You never asked yourself why Harbinger did not kill Shepard?

[RiouHotaru]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

What TIM proved was that it was possible to take control AWAY from the Reapers, something which up until that point wasn't supposed to be possible or even considered an option.

However, TIM's obsession with human domination lead to him implanting himself with Reaper Tech and his indoctrination, which disqualifies him. The Catalyst gives the exact reason why TIM can't use the Crucible:

"He could not control us, because we already controlled him."

Thank you. Some one understands.

and having a Shepard AI acting like the new Catalyst who can start killing again as soon as something goes down is a good thing?

You assume that'll happen.  Just because it's a possibility (even if a remote one) doesn't mean it's guaranteed.  Remember, the Shepard-Catalyst states that Shepard's memories/experiences/ideals shape what kind of person the new AI is.

Why would a Paragon Shepard AI start killing anyone?  That'd be against Paragon Shepard's experiences and ideals.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

dreman9999 wrote...

Wanting to control does not mean they tried. Wanting to control just means they wanted to control. If you what to have a point you have to show that they tried to control the reapers.

Thank you for proving my point, they wanting to control lead to failure.

[Lord Goose]

So you think the Reapers gave you two sunshine and butterflies endings and made only one a tough choice requiring sacrifice?

In my opinion all choices require sacrifice (it's just personal sacrifice vs sacrifice of those around you). So I. just picked the most appropriate one.

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

What TIM proved was that it was possible to take control AWAY from the Reapers, something which up until that point wasn't supposed to be possible or even considered an option.

However, TIM's obsession with human domination lead to him implanting himself with Reaper Tech and his indoctrination, which disqualifies him. The Catalyst gives the exact reason why TIM can't use the Crucible:

"He could not control us, because we already controlled him."

The Star Child's say so does nto make it fact. Perhaps no single organic mind can take control of trillions of repaer minds. Perhaps it wants Sheparad to foolishly try. 

It you talked to TIM at the end of the game, it's clear as day he is controled by the reapers.

TIM makes alot of claims. If TIM could control reapers or there forces why was Sanctuary overrun? Why didn't Cerberus just call off the attacking reaper forces? They are still attacking Cerberus when you arrive there. The only thing TIM controls in Anderson and Shep's motor functions and we already have a word for that: Dominate (biotic skill). It even has a little biotic effect over his hand when he has Shepard shoot Anderson. He's indoctrinated and being used as a reaper mouthpiece to advocate control. Unable to convince him, the reapers then give up and use him to kill Shepard.

The Twilight God wrote...

Just moments earlier, Shepard argued with The Illusive Man against this very course of action. His exact words were, “You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use” and Shepard can question TIM asking, “Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?”

Yet all it takes is one confirmation from the Reapers that it can work for Shepard to completely reverse his position on the subject. So now, betting humanity’s existence on the endorsement of the Reapers (who are currently doing their best to destroy all space-faring species) is now an acceptable risk?

Recall what indoctrinated TIM said to Shepard when he asks, "Why waste your time with us if you can control the Reapers?"
TIM (under Reaper influence) answers, "Because... I need you to believe."

But you see it's not TIM who needs Shepard to believe. Tim has the physical capacity to open the arms himself. It is the Reapers who need Shepard to believe. They are trying to indoctrinate Shepard through TIM as the Reapers tried to indoctrinate Kahlee Sanders through Paul Grayson. The Reapers are trying to convince Shepard.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419412

[Lord Goose]

Thank you for proving my point, they wanting to control lead to failure.

I believe Protheans wanted to destroy the Reapers and failed. I also believe it is true for Inusannon and Rachni. Oh, wait, they all were wiped out and subjugated. Definitely, wanting to stop the Reapers also lead to failure.

And I'm joking. I hope you too.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

RiouHotaru wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

What TIM proved was that it was possible to take control AWAY from the Reapers, something which up until that point wasn't supposed to be possible or even considered an option.

However, TIM's obsession with human domination lead to him implanting himself with Reaper Tech and his indoctrination, which disqualifies him. The Catalyst gives the exact reason why TIM can't use the Crucible:

"He could not control us, because we already controlled him."

Thank you. Some one understands.

and having a Shepard AI acting like the new Catalyst who can start killing again as soon as something goes down is a good thing?

You assume that'll happen.  Just because it's a possibility (even if a remote one) doesn't mean it's guaranteed.  Remember, the Shepard-Catalyst states that Shepard's memories/experiences/ideals shape what kind of person the new AI is.

Why would a Paragon Shepard AI start killing anyone?  That'd be against Paragon Shepard's experiences and ideals.

Depends what's your definition of Paragon...

What if you start to believe you must kill all organics for justice, it might be Paragon to you....
Better yet, what if your renegade......

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Lord Goose wrote...

Thank you for proving my point, they wanting to control lead to failure.

I believe Protheans wanted to destroy the Reapers and failed. I also believe it is true for Inusannon and Rachni. Oh, wait, they all were wiped out and subjugated. Definitely, wanting to stop the Reapers also lead to failure.

And I'm joking. I hope you too.

Yes, I just hope you get the point I'm trying to get across....

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

The fact is, there is no good reason to trust the Star Child. Period.

There is not a single person here or anywhere in the universe that can counter that statement at this time.

I agree, what where is no reason to believe him at all. But beggars cannot be choosers and my Shepard really wanted to do something to save everyone.

So you think the Reapers gave you two sunshine and butterflies endings and made only one a tough choice requiring sacrifice? This doesn't strike you as odd?

You missing the fact that they are shackled AI's who have no choice but to do what they are doing because of their programing...The have a reason to help you...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNyvUblf28&feature=player_detailpage#t=556s

Take some time to understand there goals...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XNyvUblf28&feature=player_detailpage#t=136s

I don't know any of this. I know the image of a little boy makes several claims. I also know that it lies.. alot

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

A 10 minute chat with the reapers now that I have them by the balls doesn't negate 120 hours that indicate otherwise.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419372

The funny thing is everthing you have in those links arn't lies at all. I'll give you an example.
1. He says he is the catalyst and the citadel is part of him. This is the same case with EDI and her new body. Her new body is her and part of her. An synthetic ban have as many parts , bodies and personas as they want.

EDI can take control of the Normdy. She isn't just along for the ride as a passenger in the AI core room.

If the Citadel was part of him he could simply block destroy. He can't because he has no connection to the Citadel. He couldn't activate the Citadel relay in ME1 or shut down the network in ME3. The only purpose it serves is to indoctrinate Shepard into suiciding himself to advance the reaper agenda. I doubt there is even an AI on the Citadel. I think it was just a Harbinger mindfu*k.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 04 août 2012 - 07:15 .

[Lord Goose]

Just moments earlier, Shepard argued with The Illusive Man against this very course of action. His exact words were, “You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use”

Yes, but Shepard could have been talking about the whole deal with fusing Reaper technology with his body body, and making slaves out of living people. He didn't said: "Control is stupid idea and no one should try it, no matter that", he could have been simply arguing against TIM's means to achieve the goal.

and Shepard can question TIM asking, “Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?”

And he also adds: "You can't, can you? They won't let you do it".

Basically, Catalyst only confirmed Shepard's own (and Andersen's) suspicions that TIM was indoctrinated.

[Lord Goose]

Yes, I just hope you get the point I'm trying to get across....

So, since everyone who tried resist Reapers failed, we should do nothing?

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only real reason to trust the catalyst is because what the crucible does is based in your ems. IT THE CATALYST WAS IN CONTROL, IT WOULD JUST FORCE SYNTHESIS.

It can't force you to jump in that beam. It can't keep Shepard from figuring out that it little device is keeping the Crucible from arming and it can't make Shepard hold on to those electrical leads. It never had any power other than indoctrination. It's not even the Catalyst. It lies to you from beginning to end.

Can't force me? My Shep was near broken form before the conduit. It could of orders two muraders to over power shep before going up to the citadel, and dragged him into the beam.  Understand that you were allowed up the citadel, like you are now allown the 3 choices.

What marauders? Can it now materialize forces out of thin air.

It didn't allow anything. TIM, under indoctrination, will kill Shepard if he doesn't kill him first.

You never asked yourself why Harbinger did not kill Shepard?

Plot armor? Something else caught his attention? who knows.

You ever ask yourself why an indoctrinated TIM will kill Shepard if Shepard does not kill him?

You can't ignore one flaw of your argument and keep going like it doesn't exist. The reapers were not willing to let him get past TIM. They wanted Shepard dead right then and there.

[RethenX]

I just don't get why the Catalyst is just going to stand there and be replaced by Shepard. Shouldn't he, I don't know fight him or something?

[The Twilight God]

Lord Goose wrote...

So you think the Reapers gave you two sunshine and butterflies endings and made only one a tough choice requiring sacrifice?

In my opinion all choices require sacrifice (it's just personal sacrifice vs sacrifice of those around you). So I. just picked the most appropriate one.

Shepard dies in all endings. All dialog leading up paints a picture that Shepard will die no matter which choice he makes.

Control and Synthesis have no downside compared to Destroy if taken at face value. None at all.

[Lord Goose]

But you see it's not TIM who needs Shepard to believe. Tim has the physical capacity to open the arms himself. It is the Reapers who need Shepard to believe. They are trying to indoctrinate Shepard through TIM as the Reapers tried to indoctrinate Kahlee Sanders through Paul Grayson. The Reapers are trying to convince Shepard.

Or the Reapers simply not letting the Illusive Man open the Citadel. But they cannot simply forbid him to do it, because that would make him realise that he has no will of his own. So they made up a reason on spot.

Speaking of which, Shepard could possibly consider synthetics to be "just machines" without a soul, and nothing in the final dialogue changes. Nothing. If that was their plan all along, doesn't this flaw strikes you as... odd?